In ways I do agree with your views Chris we too have to take into account effects of low Z as well. Perhaps I should have rephrase is super low Z that important. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Output impedance affects how the output voltage will change when the load current changes. Less output impedance means that the output voltage will react less to changes in load current. Output impedance has nothing to do with the noise level at the output of the regulator, or its ability to reject noise at its input.Input filtering affects the noise level at the output of the regulator. Regulators like the Jung regulator use a reference circuit to establish a voltage, and then feed that to an amplifier powered by the 'dirty' input voltage to produce the 'clean' output voltage. So, filtering the input will usually lower the noise that reaches the output. Higher internal feedback inside of the amplifier also allows the amplifier to more closely track the reference voltage, and not the input voltage, and that too will reduce the sensitivity of the regulator to output noise given noise at its input.
As above, higher levels of feedback in the regulator itself make the regulator output more closely track the voltage derived from its voltage reference. Higher levels of feedback also reduce the output impedance of the regulator. So, more feedback (which is obtained by giving the regulator amplifier more open loop gain) will both reduce output impedance as well as increase input ripple rejection. This is why amplifiers like the 797 were chosen, since they have both extremely high gain as well as a wide bandwidth. The combination of the two allows the regulator as a whole to have low output impedance even at the upper end of the audio frequency range. Feedback is good! 🙂
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Completely agree with anatech. Walt Jung does listen very carefully to what he does, and it's one of the few audio electronics engineer that separates objective from subjective approach, when most others say there's not such a thing. If it doesn't measure somehow, then it doesn't exist. For me he was the first person that related a power supply output impedance to audio quality, and how that dictates a large part of the interrelation between them. Like an invisible barrier. I don't know which Scott anatech is referring to.
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Cheers,
Jesper,
There is a very good thread on diyaudio dealing with proper design and calculation of snubbers. It's a waste of time unless you use the tester described to determine the correct values.
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So he is an audio electronics engineer? I don't know about him but that's interesting. But I know that anatech is referring to Scott Wurcer, the one who design the excellent AD797.
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Hi johnego,
Yes, Scott Wurcer is correct. Sadly there are probably other engineers around here that I am not aware of that are masters at their art as well. Around here, you never know who you are really talking to and how much they know. You're best to tread respectfully and be on your best behavior. You never know who will be in a position to render assistance when you need it. It would be a real shame to annoy an expert in the field that could have helped you in the future. Another person like this would be Nelson Pass. I don't think there will be any disagreement with him knowing exactly what he is doing either.
-Chris
Yes, Scott Wurcer is correct. Sadly there are probably other engineers around here that I am not aware of that are masters at their art as well. Around here, you never know who you are really talking to and how much they know. You're best to tread respectfully and be on your best behavior. You never know who will be in a position to render assistance when you need it. It would be a real shame to annoy an expert in the field that could have helped you in the future. Another person like this would be Nelson Pass. I don't think there will be any disagreement with him knowing exactly what he is doing either.
-Chris
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Bravo well said Chris. On occasions I do wonder why Mr Pass recommended Silmic ll. Maybe his FR speakers shows Silmic ll differently especially for the highs.
Forgot, could also be the tube like sound of Silmic that adds the extra bit.
Forgot, could also be the tube like sound of Silmic that adds the extra bit.
I'm just 'breaking-in' some of the Nichicon KA caps - so far, a rather different sound to the familiar KZ ones - it'll be interesting to see how the 'bass' settles down
[Using these as the output caps in the K-Multiplier filter on the AMB Sigma 11 supply for the headamp]
[Using these as the output caps in the K-Multiplier filter on the AMB Sigma 11 supply for the headamp]
Think I read it in Marantz forum saying that the KA’s have more natural & better highs then KZ . Would appreciate your views James
It has been done before, I saw it somewhere even on a commercial high-end DAC claimed to be a hybrid one, because of its solid state preamp and tube rectifiers. I recall the later were AZ Telefunkens. 😀
Oya oh well no harm trying diy. I know that Border Patrol dac has one not too long ago using TDA 1543. Btw the Sikorels that you speak off any part no. ?
Thks AE50
Thks AE50
They've only done about 20 hours so don't expect all the characteristics to be settled but so far, they just seem clearer and smoother than the KZs, but haven't that heavier bass (yet?) - early days yet and I'll see what happens in next day or so - surprising thing is they're more relaxed than the Rubycon ZLs when listening to such things as 'Jazz in the Pawnshop' for example with the Xylophone in "Limehouse Blues" and the 'air' in the cymbols - rather pleasant is the 'brass instruments' in "Just a Closer Walk ..." (Marsalis/Clapton - Plays the Blues) and the vocals are very clear without any 'stridency' - didn't expect this
What shall I try next?
Ah, yes, Sarah Mcloughlin's "I Love You" on her Surfacing album - that low bass is there all right (a bit overdone IMO, but you just have to love it) - not well controlled, but not bad. Enya's "Amarantine' for clarity - yep, very clear indeed, in fact maybe a bit forward but not bad at all - these KA's seem to be doing a much better job of it than the KZs .... and to 'get an earful' of the cymbols and snare drums would be Charly Antolini's "Duwadjuwanado" on his Knockout 2000 - very nice indeed ... This will be interesting to see if some more hours fills out the initial snare drum strike - the low mids/upper bass area is a bit lean -sound a bit like the big polyester caps here. In comparison, the KZs make a bit of a mess of the cymbols/treble on this album in the system here, not sure why - the Panasonics FCs show a similar effect.
Yes, I can see why Marantz would use these caps everywhere I must try the idea of operating the Nichicon BPs with the longer '+' lead to ground instead of the 'normal' way - interesting - a new one to me
What shall I try next?
Ah, yes, Sarah Mcloughlin's "I Love You" on her Surfacing album - that low bass is there all right (a bit overdone IMO, but you just have to love it) - not well controlled, but not bad. Enya's "Amarantine' for clarity - yep, very clear indeed, in fact maybe a bit forward but not bad at all - these KA's seem to be doing a much better job of it than the KZs .... and to 'get an earful' of the cymbols and snare drums would be Charly Antolini's "Duwadjuwanado" on his Knockout 2000 - very nice indeed ... This will be interesting to see if some more hours fills out the initial snare drum strike - the low mids/upper bass area is a bit lean -sound a bit like the big polyester caps here. In comparison, the KZs make a bit of a mess of the cymbols/treble on this album in the system here, not sure why - the Panasonics FCs show a similar effect.
Yes, I can see why Marantz would use these caps everywhere I must try the idea of operating the Nichicon BPs with the longer '+' lead to ground instead of the 'normal' way - interesting - a new one to me
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Yes James Kz is a little splashy on cymbals etc but in combi with BP its evens out. The nicse thing about BP is it is realtively even sounding & it widens things a little instead of sounding thin & tall. Well looks like I’ve got to try some KA as well. Thks for the update James.
Forgot James whats voltage rating are you using for KA’s.
KZ I only use 50v versions cause it is a mark improvement over lower voltage varieties.
Forgot James whats voltage rating are you using for KA’s.
KZ I only use 50v versions cause it is a mark improvement over lower voltage varieties.
I'm using the Cavalli hybrid amp as the test tool and playing with the power supplies using that unusual 'Charge Transfer' circuit of John Brown's (EC Design) to feed AMB Labs Sigma 11 regulator - I thought that was a rather good combination but after playing with Teddy Pardu's regulator, I added a Cap Multiplier after the Sigma 11 reg and this just seemed a better overall sound, despite the convoluted series of filter networks
Then I started playing with different types of capacitors and .....
There's a thread running about power supplies and they've mentioned all sorts of things being 'better' but I'm of the school of thought that says 'better for a specific circuit' so when different comments about components don't indicate the circuit application, I have trouble relating it to my own systems. I recently bought some Rubycon ZL caps after a recommendation but in my current application, they aren't producing the balance of sound that I prefer even after hundreds of hours, but in Salas's shunt reg circuit, they function extremely well - go figure, eh. Oh, one thing I might add - the sound on the headphones/amp is difficult to reproduce via the amp/speakers/room (obviously) and this might 'skew' capacitor choices or recommendations. My 'capacitor sounds' comments are really a 'try it on your own system' comments (in capital letters) but hearing about other experiences is quite useful - thank you for your posts
Then I started playing with different types of capacitors and .....
There's a thread running about power supplies and they've mentioned all sorts of things being 'better' but I'm of the school of thought that says 'better for a specific circuit' so when different comments about components don't indicate the circuit application, I have trouble relating it to my own systems. I recently bought some Rubycon ZL caps after a recommendation but in my current application, they aren't producing the balance of sound that I prefer even after hundreds of hours, but in Salas's shunt reg circuit, they function extremely well - go figure, eh. Oh, one thing I might add - the sound on the headphones/amp is difficult to reproduce via the amp/speakers/room (obviously) and this might 'skew' capacitor choices or recommendations. My 'capacitor sounds' comments are really a 'try it on your own system' comments (in capital letters) but hearing about other experiences is quite useful - thank you for your posts
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Sorry, crossed posts - yes, same 50v ratings - unfortunately, with some of my BPs, i went for higher capacitance and have many of the 35volt ones - not sure if running these about 28 volts is possibly degrading their performance despite the 'engineering okay'
I generally like a bit of a margin in cap voltages - it certainly works with the big Siemens caps
You were asking 50AE about some particular Siemens caps - I think I have the same/similar ones that are shown on the 'for sale' website
The 68uF/40v are B41590 (FKD) , the 100uF/63v orange ones are B41591, the 1000uF/16v (green) are B41590 (FKD) , the1000uF/63v are B41592 (FKF), the 680 ...
All of these are the T125 rating and unfortunately, weren't the best sounding caps - the FKD is to indicate axial caps, I think - the supposed benefits of axial this was a fad out here a while ago, so we all bought up anything that was an axial cap, good and poor (yeah, well ...!) - If you, or anyone else reading this, want to try any of these, I've got plenty of them just sitting here gathering dust.
I generally like a bit of a margin in cap voltages - it certainly works with the big Siemens caps
You were asking 50AE about some particular Siemens caps - I think I have the same/similar ones that are shown on the 'for sale' website
The 68uF/40v are B41590 (FKD) , the 100uF/63v orange ones are B41591, the 1000uF/16v (green) are B41590 (FKD) , the1000uF/63v are B41592 (FKF), the 680 ...
All of these are the T125 rating and unfortunately, weren't the best sounding caps - the FKD is to indicate axial caps, I think - the supposed benefits of axial this was a fad out here a while ago, so we all bought up anything that was an axial cap, good and poor (yeah, well ...!) - If you, or anyone else reading this, want to try any of these, I've got plenty of them just sitting here gathering dust.
Thank you kindly again James. Btw have you tried BC caps. Philips use to have an L or LL series I believe & they sounded really good as P ps caps for amp. Wonder if the BC are the same .
Those axial blue ones, yes? I remember chasing some up to redo one of the early Rotel cd players with the Phillips transports - can't remember the sound - I thought the 'standard' Phillips caps had a similar sound to the Roe caps but not sure about the LLs
Not sure if the BC caps survived the Vishay integration, Karl - there was so much going on when Phillips disbanded - it's hard to figure out what caps are what these days and the spec sheets aren't helping much - I sometimes think there's a fight between Vishay and TDK for how many companies they can absorb, presumably for market share
Not sure if the BC caps survived the Vishay integration, Karl - there was so much going on when Phillips disbanded - it's hard to figure out what caps are what these days and the spec sheets aren't helping much - I sometimes think there's a fight between Vishay and TDK for how many companies they can absorb, presumably for market share