When we rebuilt my vintage 70s receivers, Akai AS980, Sansui G7500, Marantz 2235, Marantz 4415 and Kenwood KA-3500, the only deviation from OEM were the caps that went into the power supplies. Perhaps some caps snuck into the other circuits if we couldn't find exact replacments..
But that was done with great hesitancy.... heck, it took almost six months to find a set of used, but still working well, high speed output transistors for the Sansui... we were ready to part it out.
The 3500 had working output transistors but they didn't measure all that great, so we parted out a KR-4070 that I had no attachment to. ( I've owned the KA-3500 since new and the matching KT-5300...
( So, you see, I do pay attention to specifications as well... as a starting point ).
The truth is that caps can really change the sound and I didn't want to "upgrade" the OEM sound of those units.
There is a reason why I've kept those units, unlike others that I got rid of, and it's their original sound qualities.
But that was done with great hesitancy.... heck, it took almost six months to find a set of used, but still working well, high speed output transistors for the Sansui... we were ready to part it out.
The 3500 had working output transistors but they didn't measure all that great, so we parted out a KR-4070 that I had no attachment to. ( I've owned the KA-3500 since new and the matching KT-5300...
( So, you see, I do pay attention to specifications as well... as a starting point ).
The truth is that caps can really change the sound and I didn't want to "upgrade" the OEM sound of those units.
There is a reason why I've kept those units, unlike others that I got rid of, and it's their original sound qualities.
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I thought a "good capacitor" was the one adapted at an peculiar need and circuit , not all the circuit have the same specs
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^ "...a "good capacitor" was the one adapted at an peculiar need and circuit..."
I'm not an expert at selecting "good capacitors" but the guy up the freeway who does vintage restorations says the same thing.
We had a long discussion about such things when I engaged him to rebuild the units and we spent quite a bit of time time talking about parts.
I'm not an expert at selecting "good capacitors" but the guy up the freeway who does vintage restorations says the same thing.
We had a long discussion about such things when I engaged him to rebuild the units and we spent quite a bit of time time talking about parts.
Interesting. Attempting to maintain the sound of an older audio device that has aged. And just exactly what was the original sound?
You know, I have spoken directly to several design engineers over decades. Every single one of them has said they try to get the best sound, lowest distortion they can out of a design given cost constraints (not a good thing obviously). They were not talking about "the capacitor of the month", they were talking overall * real* quality (easily measured), quality of resistors. One main concern was failure rate. There were efforts made to maintain a "brand sound" for some, but most were going after minimum distortion and highest reliability for the good brands. They all had to watch costs, but you can't read that to mean equipment was designed poorly. Most of the brand sound came from circuit design, and in the case of Pioneer, a ton of really low quality parts.
I asked an old designer from the tube days (actually a few, everyone I came in contact with) about sound and components. Each and every single one said that they would have used the new, better quality parts in a heartbeat had they existed. The "sound" of an older amp wasn't what they intended, it was the best they could do. Parts were and are a commodity item folks. Tubes especially. It really boils down to quality leading directly to lower distortion and higher reliability.
There is so much misinformation out there, all of leading to people spending more money. One idiot maintains that you have to replace capacitors with the exact value and voltage rating. This makes zero sense, I mean you don't go around increasing capacitance. That's true. But a higher voltage rating gives you a part that fits better and a better capacitor (within reason).
People will say whatever. But selecting the right part for the job means that you have to understand the circuit firstly, then you need to understand part characteristics. One thing for sure, among good parts, there simply isn't any difference in sound between coupling capacitors. If there was, that characteristic would be very easily measured. It's easy to determine a polyester and polypropylene by measured differences, same for Tantalum, ceramic and anything else you'd like to drag up. But between good brands of the same type - nope. Zero audible difference. Not even if they mountt he capacitor in a tube (pick your material). I've seen it all, measured it all, heard it all.
Tony, OEM caps? Those series of parts were discontinued decades ago. I was servicing stuff then and had to order it. NOS capacitors? Really? If you used them, I'd yank them out right away. Also, most capacitors were not in locations that stressed them at all. Those would be in better condition on average to any that were stored for a similar period of time unused.
There is an entire industry made of of misinformation aimed at market share and probably reputation. Any good technician I know of uses current parts when possible from authorized vendors and good quality brands. We do this for very good reasons, and value to our customer is the primary one. Freedom from reworks (warranty recalls) is another. Every good technician is concerned with proper performance and meeting original specs as a minimum. Higher performance is always an interest and that means lower distortion and noise. The exact same things that were the engineering concerns to begin with.
You know, I have spoken directly to several design engineers over decades. Every single one of them has said they try to get the best sound, lowest distortion they can out of a design given cost constraints (not a good thing obviously). They were not talking about "the capacitor of the month", they were talking overall * real* quality (easily measured), quality of resistors. One main concern was failure rate. There were efforts made to maintain a "brand sound" for some, but most were going after minimum distortion and highest reliability for the good brands. They all had to watch costs, but you can't read that to mean equipment was designed poorly. Most of the brand sound came from circuit design, and in the case of Pioneer, a ton of really low quality parts.
I asked an old designer from the tube days (actually a few, everyone I came in contact with) about sound and components. Each and every single one said that they would have used the new, better quality parts in a heartbeat had they existed. The "sound" of an older amp wasn't what they intended, it was the best they could do. Parts were and are a commodity item folks. Tubes especially. It really boils down to quality leading directly to lower distortion and higher reliability.
There is so much misinformation out there, all of leading to people spending more money. One idiot maintains that you have to replace capacitors with the exact value and voltage rating. This makes zero sense, I mean you don't go around increasing capacitance. That's true. But a higher voltage rating gives you a part that fits better and a better capacitor (within reason).
People will say whatever. But selecting the right part for the job means that you have to understand the circuit firstly, then you need to understand part characteristics. One thing for sure, among good parts, there simply isn't any difference in sound between coupling capacitors. If there was, that characteristic would be very easily measured. It's easy to determine a polyester and polypropylene by measured differences, same for Tantalum, ceramic and anything else you'd like to drag up. But between good brands of the same type - nope. Zero audible difference. Not even if they mountt he capacitor in a tube (pick your material). I've seen it all, measured it all, heard it all.
Tony, OEM caps? Those series of parts were discontinued decades ago. I was servicing stuff then and had to order it. NOS capacitors? Really? If you used them, I'd yank them out right away. Also, most capacitors were not in locations that stressed them at all. Those would be in better condition on average to any that were stored for a similar period of time unused.
There is an entire industry made of of misinformation aimed at market share and probably reputation. Any good technician I know of uses current parts when possible from authorized vendors and good quality brands. We do this for very good reasons, and value to our customer is the primary one. Freedom from reworks (warranty recalls) is another. Every good technician is concerned with proper performance and meeting original specs as a minimum. Higher performance is always an interest and that means lower distortion and noise. The exact same things that were the engineering concerns to begin with.
"I asked an old designer from the tube days (actually a few, everyone I came in contact with) about sound and components. Each and every single one said that they would have used the new, better quality parts in a heartbeat had they existed. The "sound" of an older amp wasn't what they intended, it was the best they could do."
You nailed it, that is the quintessence of our experience.
You nailed it, that is the quintessence of our experience.
Please. choose your criticisms more carefully.. ( I thought we were done with this... ). And, btw, don't call me "idiot"...
(a) I didn't call for NOS caps, I called for NOS components - specifically output transistors.
(b) Don't call me an "idiot", I've been doing this stuff since '74. I think by now I got enough understanding of audio about how to spend my money.
(c) At one point in my career, I worked designing electronic hardware, and trust me, I have been in labs all of my career, giving directions and instructions to all kinds of technicians, assemblers, etc...
(d) I'm not maintaining the sound of old devices that have aged. You keep putting words in my mouth. I'm restoring components to sound OEM as they did when new. If you read below, you'll see that I'm very familiar with the sound of those components when new! Still am. The guy who rebuilt them also has stacks of those components, all faithfully rebuilt. If you don't remember what the OEM sound of classic components is, then that's your issue, but do not accuse me, or attempt to ridicule what I do. It's a logically invalid argument you are taking.
...
(1) My first receiver was a Marantz 2220B. I remember that sound because I had it singing on a pair of ADS L500s for a while. Someone gifted me a Marantz 2235 about 20 years ago and then I bought a 4415 about the same time. So, I know how they sounded.
(2) The Sansui G7500 was a family heirloom, purchased at the Sasebo Navy Exchange about '77. I know very well how that High Speed unit sounded, as I "borrowed" it for a couple of years. Drove my ADS L810. It was a powerhouse.
(3) I guess I could introduce the Kenwood KA-3500 which replaced the 2220B. I also had it rebuilt, used the output transistors from a KR7040 that I did not need nor want. That little sucker brings us back to the days when a "40 watt" amplifier could cleanly drive the house down!
(4) The fellow that rebuilt my vintage components specializes in 70s and 80s. He's got stacks of Luxman, Trio, Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui, etc, etc... He's a specialist at it and listens to what he does. I won't put him in a pedestal because he's very nice and unassuming, but he knows what he's doing. And he knows people that know people, etc... so he can source parts, info, etc...
(5) Oh, so you have " spoken directly to several design engineers over decades"... well, so what? That's a non sequitur. We Design Engineers spend untold R&D hours on achieving the best product allowed by the restrictions of Sales and Marketing. As a Design Engineer myself, I don't assume I know better than the design engineers who designed the circuits I'm looking to restore (voltage... forget EVER screwing with capacitance )... when I decide to rebuild, I stick to the original design, period. Do you think you know better than the original Design Engineer? I very much doubt it, you are changing the product! Do me a favor, don't put yourself in a pedestal because many of us in this forum could do the same thing. Like one of my old bosses told me: "Tony don't be arrogant, be nice, BE NICE!"... perhaps you ought to be nice too?
(6) To answer your question:
The Marantz sound of the 70s was darker, with a slight hump in the bass... and a bit of a chocolate sound: rich sound, a bit dark. Think Led Zeppelin's Rain Song. The Sansui "High Speed" sound of the late 70s was eons ahead in clarity. The bass was lighter was much faster and tuneful. Think Can't Buy A Thrill by Steele Dan.
As it stands the ADS L500 were replaced by the ADS L810, which I have. Recently we redid the crossover and repair on of the woofers. Being that the 810 is truly very similar to the L500 ( same tune really ), I can state that the Marantz/810 is very similar to the sound of the Marantz/500. Of course, the G7500 and 810s are old friends and I still have the same LPs ( OK, the Dual is gone, replaced by the LP12).
When we replaced the components we made a point of not "upgrading" them to "modern" standards. The fellow who does the work understands this clearly. He know which components to put where and knows how the sound of a circuit will be affected.... besides, you are putting words in my mouth, I never claimed OEM capacitors.... but for sure we used the OEM High Speed output transistors in the Sansui.. those are fragile and tend to deteriorate... So, just like we didn't put LED lamps, sticking to incandescent, we only used components in the units that sonically will match the original components ( when the OEM were not available ).
Remember, when I hook up the Marantzes and Sansui to the ADC L810 I have a system that goes back to the mid/late 70s. The main difference will be the discs and the DAC.
Anyhow, my vintage units sound fantastic, within the confines of how they were designed to sound.
Anyhow, I'm done with this. I don't need to be insulted and called an "idiot"... My parting suggestion is to LISTEN MORE.
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Hi Tony,
Not once have I called you an idiot. I was referring to a person in my area who excels at overcharging and wrecking equipment who does that.
I'm afraid there is no reason to use the same exact voltage ratings. Do that and in fact it insures you use a part that doesn't perform as well and is definitely too small. But I am not saying you are an idiot, nor have I ever intended you would take it to mean you.
Not once have I called you an idiot. I was referring to a person in my area who excels at overcharging and wrecking equipment who does that.
I'm afraid there is no reason to use the same exact voltage ratings. Do that and in fact it insures you use a part that doesn't perform as well and is definitely too small. But I am not saying you are an idiot, nor have I ever intended you would take it to mean you.
Now, to address the rest of your post ...
I serviced all that stuff, and much under warranty with Marantz and a few other brands. I am extremely familiar with them and also some reasons why they sounded the way they did. We should also point out that speaker technology has improved a great deal since then, especially in the area of high frequency reproduction. So how something sounded to you with your young ears on old speakers before they aged isn't a fixed reference. They did have a distortion mechanism that, when eliminated without changing the circuit, becomes clear and open (to use a non-technical description).
We aren't talking about loudspeakers, but I can also parade out a line of speakers. It won't change what we are talking about. I'll assume you also changed cartridges when you replaced the turntable, and that changes everything! I am working on another Marantz 500 right now. I think I know them well since I have since I began warranty for Marantz. The SR-810 sounds nothing like a 500 by the way, completely different animals. I have upgraded several 500 amplifiers, keeping to the original schematic and their owners love them. The 500's sound the same but with lower distortion and noise.
As for using older parts ... well as long as you could match the output transistors it would work better. You would have been further ahead using current production. Sound change? None, just lower distortion as the gain here is slightly lower than unity. All you can do in the output stage (beyond making it fail) is reduce linearity which increases overall distortion by using period parts. Changing the output transistor type may require you to re-compensate the amplifier though.
I use LEDs whenever I can. I have found some that look exactly like lamps, I make my own function lamp replacements and use real vellum for the Marantz dials. This reduces temperatures and current draw, extending the life of the display reflector. I do have original Marantz lamps for those who want them, but 99% of people want the LED types after seeing my equipment with them. They look like original but a little brighter since originally they were darker. All the original vellum has become yellow to darker yellow-brown by now. Many folks use paper from Staples that absolutely will darken over time.
Listen Tony, I'm glad you are happy. I'm sure it sounds great. These days if a repair is reliable, you're on the solid plus side. I give my clients more for their dollar instead of attempting to guess what the stuff sounded like when it was new. My memory simply isn't that good after 40 + years, and the equipment slowly degrades in sound quality over time - as do most speakers. They get improved performance, improved reliability and better looking gear sometimes (but at least the same - but cleaner).
I serviced all that stuff, and much under warranty with Marantz and a few other brands. I am extremely familiar with them and also some reasons why they sounded the way they did. We should also point out that speaker technology has improved a great deal since then, especially in the area of high frequency reproduction. So how something sounded to you with your young ears on old speakers before they aged isn't a fixed reference. They did have a distortion mechanism that, when eliminated without changing the circuit, becomes clear and open (to use a non-technical description).
- Yup, fixed them as well. I think I have a G-7500 here somewhere I restored for my late wife.
- Got the manuals for those and am again familiar with them. Older Japanese outputs were better than the US ones at the time, but newer parts are far superior and a lot more linear with collector current (= lower distortion at higher levels).
- Yes, I do as well. I was authorized warranty for Luxman and Marantz plus many other upper brands.
- Heck, I'm just repeating what I was told by people in this industry I had continuous, direct contact with. I am by no means on a pedestal, I am learning from the best and passing on the knowledge. That's all.
- Again with the prose. Please use engineering terms if you can. The equipment did measure flat so we aren't talking about tonal balance. You're talking about something else that others may not be able to follow.
We aren't talking about loudspeakers, but I can also parade out a line of speakers. It won't change what we are talking about. I'll assume you also changed cartridges when you replaced the turntable, and that changes everything! I am working on another Marantz 500 right now. I think I know them well since I have since I began warranty for Marantz. The SR-810 sounds nothing like a 500 by the way, completely different animals. I have upgraded several 500 amplifiers, keeping to the original schematic and their owners love them. The 500's sound the same but with lower distortion and noise.
As for using older parts ... well as long as you could match the output transistors it would work better. You would have been further ahead using current production. Sound change? None, just lower distortion as the gain here is slightly lower than unity. All you can do in the output stage (beyond making it fail) is reduce linearity which increases overall distortion by using period parts. Changing the output transistor type may require you to re-compensate the amplifier though.
I use LEDs whenever I can. I have found some that look exactly like lamps, I make my own function lamp replacements and use real vellum for the Marantz dials. This reduces temperatures and current draw, extending the life of the display reflector. I do have original Marantz lamps for those who want them, but 99% of people want the LED types after seeing my equipment with them. They look like original but a little brighter since originally they were darker. All the original vellum has become yellow to darker yellow-brown by now. Many folks use paper from Staples that absolutely will darken over time.
Listen Tony, I'm glad you are happy. I'm sure it sounds great. These days if a repair is reliable, you're on the solid plus side. I give my clients more for their dollar instead of attempting to guess what the stuff sounded like when it was new. My memory simply isn't that good after 40 + years, and the equipment slowly degrades in sound quality over time - as do most speakers. They get improved performance, improved reliability and better looking gear sometimes (but at least the same - but cleaner).
Did you read my post? Did you catch the detail about how the ENTIRE vintage chain was updated?
My ADS L810s were redone (remeasured and changed one cap per crossover - for the low end ) and fixed the basket in one of the woofers. I know, I remember how those units sounded when new... perhaps because all of my vintage units are one or two owner units.
I don't want to make my vintage units sound modern... I'm already sitting on 21+ amps, a few preamps, DACs, etc, etc, etc... I want my vintage units to sound like they sounded when they left the factory. I'm not in the business of modifying the sound that some design engineer decided on in the 70s...
Following that, would you modify my Audio Research D70-II? You would destroy that which made that amp so desirable... instead, just go get an VT50 or something like that! How about the Conrad Johnson PV9? OK, OK, I did have the factory upgrade it five -or six- years ago with the teflon caps. Which truly brought its sound to a more modern soundstage presentation -but that was the factory, the designer...
A few years ago I had a conversation with a technician who wanted to "improve" my vintage units. For what? If I wanted an "improved" modern unit, I'd simply open the closet and pull something else out from the shelf. Needless to say, I didn't let that technician come within hundred miles of my collection.
The technician I settled for was highly recommended by people who specifically pointed out his respect for old units and his "restoration" - not redesign - skills. Everytime I speak with him, I have a great time and learn bunches more about vintage units.... so when I wanted an FM tuner, I spoke with him and searched (and found) a Kenwood KT-9900. Someday I might fall into a tubed Luxman preamp.... sight!
The other path, re-engineering an old unit... Heck, why not just take a Marantz 2240 ( the bad sounding one in the series ), gut it and put some nice DIY electronics in it?. If all you like is the LOOKS but don't care about the SOUND.
And, no, LEDs are a sign that you are not OEM'ing the products. IMHO, LEDs look terrible. I much prefer using somewhat lower power incandescent lamps, to keep the vellum from burning up... and it keeps the lighting proper... LEDs just don't look the same.
BTW, I do have modern speakers as well... so I can hook up those vintage units to them and listen with a more accurate device. You might think my "old" AE1s are old... but -they have been well maintained... crossovers, surrounds... and they sound as accurate as they were on day one. I also tried Elac Unifi2 and Audio Note AN K speakers... and I can clearly hear the sound qualities of the old units.
Naturally, I have modern amps as well, so I can hook that to the "old" ADS and hear them driven with modern, much lower distortion sources....
But ultimately, my vintage units go into a vintage system... it should look and sound absolutely period perfect, with NO improvements whatsover.
As I wrote, if I wanted a modern sound from vintage units, well, I got other systems in the house.
But now we've gone off the original thread.
My ADS L810s were redone (remeasured and changed one cap per crossover - for the low end ) and fixed the basket in one of the woofers. I know, I remember how those units sounded when new... perhaps because all of my vintage units are one or two owner units.
I don't want to make my vintage units sound modern... I'm already sitting on 21+ amps, a few preamps, DACs, etc, etc, etc... I want my vintage units to sound like they sounded when they left the factory. I'm not in the business of modifying the sound that some design engineer decided on in the 70s...
Following that, would you modify my Audio Research D70-II? You would destroy that which made that amp so desirable... instead, just go get an VT50 or something like that! How about the Conrad Johnson PV9? OK, OK, I did have the factory upgrade it five -or six- years ago with the teflon caps. Which truly brought its sound to a more modern soundstage presentation -but that was the factory, the designer...
A few years ago I had a conversation with a technician who wanted to "improve" my vintage units. For what? If I wanted an "improved" modern unit, I'd simply open the closet and pull something else out from the shelf. Needless to say, I didn't let that technician come within hundred miles of my collection.
The technician I settled for was highly recommended by people who specifically pointed out his respect for old units and his "restoration" - not redesign - skills. Everytime I speak with him, I have a great time and learn bunches more about vintage units.... so when I wanted an FM tuner, I spoke with him and searched (and found) a Kenwood KT-9900. Someday I might fall into a tubed Luxman preamp.... sight!
The other path, re-engineering an old unit... Heck, why not just take a Marantz 2240 ( the bad sounding one in the series ), gut it and put some nice DIY electronics in it?. If all you like is the LOOKS but don't care about the SOUND.
And, no, LEDs are a sign that you are not OEM'ing the products. IMHO, LEDs look terrible. I much prefer using somewhat lower power incandescent lamps, to keep the vellum from burning up... and it keeps the lighting proper... LEDs just don't look the same.
BTW, I do have modern speakers as well... so I can hook up those vintage units to them and listen with a more accurate device. You might think my "old" AE1s are old... but -they have been well maintained... crossovers, surrounds... and they sound as accurate as they were on day one. I also tried Elac Unifi2 and Audio Note AN K speakers... and I can clearly hear the sound qualities of the old units.
Naturally, I have modern amps as well, so I can hook that to the "old" ADS and hear them driven with modern, much lower distortion sources....
But ultimately, my vintage units go into a vintage system... it should look and sound absolutely period perfect, with NO improvements whatsover.
As I wrote, if I wanted a modern sound from vintage units, well, I got other systems in the house.
But now we've gone off the original thread.
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Hello Tony,
Yes, I did in fact read your entire post. Early on I pointed out that your audio memory is not sufficient to recapture the performance of the original items when new. I don't care how good you think your memory is, it simply will never be that good. The reason why is this. As your components slowly degrade, you adjust to the sound over time. Also, should you move the speaker, the sound changes as well. So you have no point of reference. Now what you do have is an impression of how they sounded at some point. This memory impression can be altered by experiences with other things that are similar. I wish I had the perfect audible memory, but the sad fact is that not one of us do.
You see, human beings do not have built in references of any kind. We do not have protected memory spaces or anything that can guarantee our memory is accurate to the extent you claim yours is. Humans are lousy test instruments, and that is why we created test instruments where we record data early on, before we had sound reproduction equipment (I'm talking about early telephone work). Most of what we have in audio today is owed to telephone research in fact. Test and measurement research plus industrial uses fill the rest of our knowledge with regard to circuits and amplification. So the bulk of our knowledge, and all of our parts, come from industrial endeavours.
I make vintage equipment sound the same as it did when it was made, except with lower distortion and noise. This is unavoidable given modern components are simply better. I just finished a McCurdy phono amplifier recently. I spent a lot of the client's money getting parts with similar characteristics to the originals (I know about these things you see). The client, whom I have done work for and known since the 80's heard the unit and complained. Well, it performs as it did in the 50's so ... I restore old radios and test equipment from the 1920's on up and studied our field from that time up (and before). I do know a great deal about old technology and parts.
I do not change much in circuits, normally holding at component type, and matching of parts (that makes a huge difference), and I gave the jig I designed for matching transistors to the members of this site. Maybe you should look it up. Now, I will also improve the performance of equipment by making changes that most often do not require foil cutting or circuit changes. There are some brands out there I did warranty for where the design is defective and they are unreliable. Those do get circuit changes. People absolutely love it when noise and distortion drop using the same circuits that sound the same.
I do care that the device sounds like the brand and model number printed on it. You have taken your argument to an extreme here. I take great pains to retain the sound of most equipment unless the client requests I clean it right up. Pioneer products come to mind. What I do is carefully apply new components and circuit design where these were not available at the time a piece of equipment was designed. I respect the original engineering teams, many do not. You often cannot tell what I have done until you examine it closely, and everything is reversible.
Now, do you understand what the acronym OEM stands for? It stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. As I pointed out earlier, the components you say you are using went out of production decades ago. So your options are: New Old Stock or new manufacture. The issue with new old stock is simple. Resistors have drifted, and electrolytic capacitors have had the aluminum oxide layers degrade. If you are lucky you can reform them, but I don't trust those. For tube can types I use CE Manufacturing. Sorry, you can't get closer to original and reliable than that. Just put a pair into the McIntosh MC60 amps I am saving after another idiot hacked them.
Also, you have never seen what I do with LEDs, so you have zero concept. You are quite right, most do look terrible. Mine look factory and people can't tell on average. What people normally do actually hurts me, I sold Marantz product before becoming a full time technician and I hate it when the appearance is destroyed. The vellum I use is made in Germany, as I said, I make my own function lamps so there is no bright spot. Bark up another tree instead of blindly claiming LEDs look terrible. Done properly they look great. Now, running lamps at lower voltages or using lower current or higher voltage increases the yellow output quite a bit. That will look decidedly unnatural. It will also be so dim you need a lighter vellum which will in fact make bright spots, or everything will be so dark you can't make it out. The Marantz engineers hit the right balance between lamp power and light output as well as colour temperature. I would say, either use the correct lamps, or do the work to get LEDs looking "right". I have done that. Remember, I have the right lamps on hand, boxes of them. I used to buy them right from Marantz (Superscope). What do you think I used as a reference?
Look, what you want out of your "vintage system" is fine for you. It sounds close to your memory of them, but this is not how they actually sounded when new. Maybe close but you haven't any way to ensure this is true. What you do have to realise is that the equipment can sound better while sounding the same as far as character is concerned. The thing that changes is the background noise, hum and distortion products. Reduce those and the product sounds the same, just without the annoying impairments. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't prefer this when the equipment still sounds like whatever the nameplate says it is. Remember, I do not change the schematic. I don't rewire things or increase filter capacitor size. So what you are complaining about has no basis. You haven't even heard or seen anything I have done.
One thing I am doing is installing a completely new, modern output section for a Marantz 4220 (not class "D"). The driver chips are blown and unavailable, it sounded terrible anyway. So how much do you want to bet the client will love the sound of this unit when done? It's either that, or throw it out. Am I being irresponsible in this case?
Yes, I did in fact read your entire post. Early on I pointed out that your audio memory is not sufficient to recapture the performance of the original items when new. I don't care how good you think your memory is, it simply will never be that good. The reason why is this. As your components slowly degrade, you adjust to the sound over time. Also, should you move the speaker, the sound changes as well. So you have no point of reference. Now what you do have is an impression of how they sounded at some point. This memory impression can be altered by experiences with other things that are similar. I wish I had the perfect audible memory, but the sad fact is that not one of us do.
You see, human beings do not have built in references of any kind. We do not have protected memory spaces or anything that can guarantee our memory is accurate to the extent you claim yours is. Humans are lousy test instruments, and that is why we created test instruments where we record data early on, before we had sound reproduction equipment (I'm talking about early telephone work). Most of what we have in audio today is owed to telephone research in fact. Test and measurement research plus industrial uses fill the rest of our knowledge with regard to circuits and amplification. So the bulk of our knowledge, and all of our parts, come from industrial endeavours.
I make vintage equipment sound the same as it did when it was made, except with lower distortion and noise. This is unavoidable given modern components are simply better. I just finished a McCurdy phono amplifier recently. I spent a lot of the client's money getting parts with similar characteristics to the originals (I know about these things you see). The client, whom I have done work for and known since the 80's heard the unit and complained. Well, it performs as it did in the 50's so ... I restore old radios and test equipment from the 1920's on up and studied our field from that time up (and before). I do know a great deal about old technology and parts.
I do not change much in circuits, normally holding at component type, and matching of parts (that makes a huge difference), and I gave the jig I designed for matching transistors to the members of this site. Maybe you should look it up. Now, I will also improve the performance of equipment by making changes that most often do not require foil cutting or circuit changes. There are some brands out there I did warranty for where the design is defective and they are unreliable. Those do get circuit changes. People absolutely love it when noise and distortion drop using the same circuits that sound the same.
I do care that the device sounds like the brand and model number printed on it. You have taken your argument to an extreme here. I take great pains to retain the sound of most equipment unless the client requests I clean it right up. Pioneer products come to mind. What I do is carefully apply new components and circuit design where these were not available at the time a piece of equipment was designed. I respect the original engineering teams, many do not. You often cannot tell what I have done until you examine it closely, and everything is reversible.
Now, do you understand what the acronym OEM stands for? It stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. As I pointed out earlier, the components you say you are using went out of production decades ago. So your options are: New Old Stock or new manufacture. The issue with new old stock is simple. Resistors have drifted, and electrolytic capacitors have had the aluminum oxide layers degrade. If you are lucky you can reform them, but I don't trust those. For tube can types I use CE Manufacturing. Sorry, you can't get closer to original and reliable than that. Just put a pair into the McIntosh MC60 amps I am saving after another idiot hacked them.
Also, you have never seen what I do with LEDs, so you have zero concept. You are quite right, most do look terrible. Mine look factory and people can't tell on average. What people normally do actually hurts me, I sold Marantz product before becoming a full time technician and I hate it when the appearance is destroyed. The vellum I use is made in Germany, as I said, I make my own function lamps so there is no bright spot. Bark up another tree instead of blindly claiming LEDs look terrible. Done properly they look great. Now, running lamps at lower voltages or using lower current or higher voltage increases the yellow output quite a bit. That will look decidedly unnatural. It will also be so dim you need a lighter vellum which will in fact make bright spots, or everything will be so dark you can't make it out. The Marantz engineers hit the right balance between lamp power and light output as well as colour temperature. I would say, either use the correct lamps, or do the work to get LEDs looking "right". I have done that. Remember, I have the right lamps on hand, boxes of them. I used to buy them right from Marantz (Superscope). What do you think I used as a reference?
Look, what you want out of your "vintage system" is fine for you. It sounds close to your memory of them, but this is not how they actually sounded when new. Maybe close but you haven't any way to ensure this is true. What you do have to realise is that the equipment can sound better while sounding the same as far as character is concerned. The thing that changes is the background noise, hum and distortion products. Reduce those and the product sounds the same, just without the annoying impairments. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't prefer this when the equipment still sounds like whatever the nameplate says it is. Remember, I do not change the schematic. I don't rewire things or increase filter capacitor size. So what you are complaining about has no basis. You haven't even heard or seen anything I have done.
One thing I am doing is installing a completely new, modern output section for a Marantz 4220 (not class "D"). The driver chips are blown and unavailable, it sounded terrible anyway. So how much do you want to bet the client will love the sound of this unit when done? It's either that, or throw it out. Am I being irresponsible in this case?
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IMHO, you should tell your customer to part out the 4220 for someone who needs the parts and to get something different.
If you change it then it is no longer a 4220. It will be neither modern nor vintage. Someone else might have the rest of the parts to put together a complete 4220.
For example, for my Akai AS980, of all things, I needed a new power switch. We figured out a Pioneer switch will do. BTW, as a forum freebie, Akai and Pioneer swapped parts in the 70s... A lousy cracked front panel switch was all that held the receiver from being perfect... I almost parted it out. But we found a perfect replacement, both in form and function.
For another example, I had the change to modify my G7500, but instead we spent almost five months tracking down the actual, OEM output transistors. Sure, we could have put something else, but it was the High Speed output transistors that were the raison d'etre for any of those G class Sansui units. Changing them to anything else, would not a be a Sansui.
Did you know that the Marantz wired quad remote, RC4, works also on the Akai quad receivers? But, being a "Marantz" I don't judge it as part of the AS-980, instead, I judge it as part of the Marantz 4415/SQA1/CD-4400B combo.
With Vintage components, AUTHENTICITY matters. If you want great sound, go buy/build a much better sounding modern unit.
Don't wreck a fine piece of audio history to "upgrade" it. If you want to do that, go do it to a Superscope or Realistic component. Or perhaps, as I wrote earlier, a Marantz 2240 -which was not a good sounding unit.
I mean, I would NEVER stash a P3, with the Nelson tone controls, B1B and an F5 inside a 2235...
What next, a Volkswagen with a Rolls Royce body?
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In my experience, the people who are buying 70s receivers are only tangentially interested in the sound, whereas aesthetics and interface are much more important. (Plus they never actually sounded all that amazing.)
Modification with a modern output stage may make it some kind of hybrid mongrel Frankenstein’s monster, if it is important to label as such… but that monster will be able to dance, and that’s exactly what the owner will want.
Modification with a modern output stage may make it some kind of hybrid mongrel Frankenstein’s monster, if it is important to label as such… but that monster will be able to dance, and that’s exactly what the owner will want.
Not true about the sound.
Some of the vintage components actually did sound quite good.
That's why taking one of the good sounding units and gutting it and doing a Frankenstein is an insult to audio history.
Take a Superscope and gut it and use it with modern parts... OK, the thing sounded like cr@p from day one.... but a top notch mid 70s Marantz receiver, well many of the models actually sounded good. Same thing with the Sansui.
In the future, I think I will pop for a pair of early 70s Luxman separates.
Look, I've had like 50 years to choose what vintage components to collect.. give me the credit on having selected some that are worthwhile for restoration. I have given away several that fell into my lap.... I do wish I had kept the HK 330C though.
Now about the current buyers.... true, it SUCKS.
The market for vintage audio has been destroyed by morons who have no clue about audio, who use their MP3 sources as inputs and who have been screwed all along by flippers and crooks. Just look at the insane prices.... Superscopes for 300 bucks, a Marantz 2220B -with an LED light upgrade- for 600 bucks. I caught one guy hawking a Sony VFET TA-8650 integrated that was "in perfect shape, fully restored by my technician"....So I asked him if the Diodes of Death had been replaced.... he didn't know, he asked his tech and then he pulled it off the market to fix that.
Avoid sellers on eBay, specially those who do NOT specialize on audio. Also professional resellers (flippers) like Reverb, High Performance Stereo, etc... It's much better to deal one on one with audiophiles and have a local tech (or the factory) at the ready to rebuild the unit.
It's also a lot more fun and satisfying to do this.
How do you think I got the Conrad Johnson ET3SE and Audio Note speakers in the last 12 months? You don't think I over pay, do you? When I make a deal is always a win-win deal, where I make good acquaintances, get top notch prices and avoid professional reseller markups.
Any how, don't dismiss all vintage audio equipment.. some of it is awesome....
Hmmm... what kind of a turntable do you have? Eh? See?
Puttin' On The Ritz.... awesome movie, we watched the DVD on Christmas Day, right after Blazing Saddles.
"...Igor, help me with the bags.
Certainly. You take the blonde, I'll take the one in the turban.
I was talking about the luggage.”..."
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sansui/qa-7000.shtml
You want knobs, lights and switches? You can't afford these knobs, lights and switches. Spinal Tap had 11, Sansui had this:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/akai/as-980.shtml
Some of the vintage components actually did sound quite good.
That's why taking one of the good sounding units and gutting it and doing a Frankenstein is an insult to audio history.
Take a Superscope and gut it and use it with modern parts... OK, the thing sounded like cr@p from day one.... but a top notch mid 70s Marantz receiver, well many of the models actually sounded good. Same thing with the Sansui.
In the future, I think I will pop for a pair of early 70s Luxman separates.
Look, I've had like 50 years to choose what vintage components to collect.. give me the credit on having selected some that are worthwhile for restoration. I have given away several that fell into my lap.... I do wish I had kept the HK 330C though.
Now about the current buyers.... true, it SUCKS.
The market for vintage audio has been destroyed by morons who have no clue about audio, who use their MP3 sources as inputs and who have been screwed all along by flippers and crooks. Just look at the insane prices.... Superscopes for 300 bucks, a Marantz 2220B -with an LED light upgrade- for 600 bucks. I caught one guy hawking a Sony VFET TA-8650 integrated that was "in perfect shape, fully restored by my technician"....So I asked him if the Diodes of Death had been replaced.... he didn't know, he asked his tech and then he pulled it off the market to fix that.
Avoid sellers on eBay, specially those who do NOT specialize on audio. Also professional resellers (flippers) like Reverb, High Performance Stereo, etc... It's much better to deal one on one with audiophiles and have a local tech (or the factory) at the ready to rebuild the unit.
It's also a lot more fun and satisfying to do this.
How do you think I got the Conrad Johnson ET3SE and Audio Note speakers in the last 12 months? You don't think I over pay, do you? When I make a deal is always a win-win deal, where I make good acquaintances, get top notch prices and avoid professional reseller markups.
Any how, don't dismiss all vintage audio equipment.. some of it is awesome....
Hmmm... what kind of a turntable do you have? Eh? See?
Puttin' On The Ritz.... awesome movie, we watched the DVD on Christmas Day, right after Blazing Saddles.
"...Igor, help me with the bags.
Certainly. You take the blonde, I'll take the one in the turban.
I was talking about the luggage.”..."
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sansui/qa-7000.shtml
You want knobs, lights and switches? You can't afford these knobs, lights and switches. Spinal Tap had 11, Sansui had this:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/akai/as-980.shtml
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