You're surely on to something.
No doubt, mechanical vibrations have some influences on the behavior of electrical circuits. During the same era, some folks used lots of damping material on components. My favorite demo was to casually throw a telephone directory on top of a mid-fi CD player, and the difference is NOT subtle; this experiment is easy to conduct, and very repeatable.
I still apply my squeeze test on all film caps as part of my own QA process: at least half of the MKP's have the piezo effect.
Hello,
Back then the French l'audiophile magazine published an article called " un condensateur qui parle " a capacitor that talks. It was explained with the electrostatic loudspeaker principle. Put a cap with a lousy construction across the output terminals of a power amp. Supply a signal and the cap would talk.
Back then they promoted Japanese Shizuki caps that were built like they were pressed into one uniform " substance " with no movement possible.
3 decades ago i bought some big Mallory caps double the height of the caps used in the Hiraga but weight was less. It decided to open one and at my surprise the actual capacitor occupied only half of the can and looked like a kind of medieval paper role with no rigidity at all. The French cap looked like an airtight construction with no room for movement.
It could be that the construction could be not really tight but then it would to be surrounded by a nice bathtub of oil. These oil caps like the Russian K75-10 or Shizuki oil filled or Siemens mkv perform well both in power supply and loudspeaker filters.
The Japanese horn diy folks are very fond of some oil caps. Probably not all them work well
Greetings Eduard
Back then the French l'audiophile magazine published an article called " un condensateur qui parle " a capacitor that talks. It was explained with the electrostatic loudspeaker principle. Put a cap with a lousy construction across the output terminals of a power amp. Supply a signal and the cap would talk.
Back then they promoted Japanese Shizuki caps that were built like they were pressed into one uniform " substance " with no movement possible.
3 decades ago i bought some big Mallory caps double the height of the caps used in the Hiraga but weight was less. It decided to open one and at my surprise the actual capacitor occupied only half of the can and looked like a kind of medieval paper role with no rigidity at all. The French cap looked like an airtight construction with no room for movement.
It could be that the construction could be not really tight but then it would to be surrounded by a nice bathtub of oil. These oil caps like the Russian K75-10 or Shizuki oil filled or Siemens mkv perform well both in power supply and loudspeaker filters.
The Japanese horn diy folks are very fond of some oil caps. Probably not all them work well
Greetings Eduard
Well, I hate to say this ... but it is extremely simple again.
Modern good capacitors have a very tight and consistent wind tension. They do not vibrate like the old stuff in the 1970s did. That and film/foil types are impregnated and solid. It's a physically solid thing now. Any decent capacitor made today is superior to whatever was made earlier in time.
All, as in 100% of our good parts come from industry. They simply cannot tolerate failure, microphonics due to vibration or mechanical failure. The better types no longer are very microphonic and when even a light bit of microphonic behavior is unsuitable, those parts are shock mounted. Parts must operate for decades under severe vibrations from industrial machines or flight conditions. A capacitor made by any "audiophile" company would be completely unsuitable. Performance would be poor and the failure rate astronomically high compared to what we normally use. That and size / weight considerations would rule them out even if substandard performance were acceptable. I didn't even bring up temperature and humidity.
I can see it now ... a Moon rocket with "Wired with Monster cable" on a sticker, how about "Jupiter capacitors" (or insert your favorite here).
Our components have improved solely because industry required higher performance. Test and measurement has driven most circuit improvements and component use cases, same for circuit layout and even the software some use to simulate circuits. PCB technology, perf board or tag strips all came from industrial needs.
If any of you want to believe audio is somehow special - go for it. However the truth is that we deal with low frequency signals in situations not too demanding with short life expectancies and an acceptable high failure rate. We can make stuff that is pretty good, but test equipment accuracy requirements and frequencies are far higher. So are some industrial use cases, aerospace is another thing again. What we do in audio doesn't even make a blip in the component supply chain. Doesn't raise an eyebrow in electronics engineering, unless someone does something whacky. No shortage of that.
Specialty audio components are one thing and one thing only. A fashion show people.
Modern good capacitors have a very tight and consistent wind tension. They do not vibrate like the old stuff in the 1970s did. That and film/foil types are impregnated and solid. It's a physically solid thing now. Any decent capacitor made today is superior to whatever was made earlier in time.
All, as in 100% of our good parts come from industry. They simply cannot tolerate failure, microphonics due to vibration or mechanical failure. The better types no longer are very microphonic and when even a light bit of microphonic behavior is unsuitable, those parts are shock mounted. Parts must operate for decades under severe vibrations from industrial machines or flight conditions. A capacitor made by any "audiophile" company would be completely unsuitable. Performance would be poor and the failure rate astronomically high compared to what we normally use. That and size / weight considerations would rule them out even if substandard performance were acceptable. I didn't even bring up temperature and humidity.
I can see it now ... a Moon rocket with "Wired with Monster cable" on a sticker, how about "Jupiter capacitors" (or insert your favorite here).
Our components have improved solely because industry required higher performance. Test and measurement has driven most circuit improvements and component use cases, same for circuit layout and even the software some use to simulate circuits. PCB technology, perf board or tag strips all came from industrial needs.
If any of you want to believe audio is somehow special - go for it. However the truth is that we deal with low frequency signals in situations not too demanding with short life expectancies and an acceptable high failure rate. We can make stuff that is pretty good, but test equipment accuracy requirements and frequencies are far higher. So are some industrial use cases, aerospace is another thing again. What we do in audio doesn't even make a blip in the component supply chain. Doesn't raise an eyebrow in electronics engineering, unless someone does something whacky. No shortage of that.
Specialty audio components are one thing and one thing only. A fashion show people.
Hello,
Of course in the past companies used a different mindset .
I used to have a bicycle that served me well with just little maintenance. Total distance cycled more than twice the equator.
Got a new one stimulated by all the marketing. Less than 10 % distance compared to my old bike the complete gearbox was gone.
Technology should have been more advanced but no way they will sell you something that can be used for decades. Planned obsolescence.
Greetings Eduard
Of course in the past companies used a different mindset .
I used to have a bicycle that served me well with just little maintenance. Total distance cycled more than twice the equator.
Got a new one stimulated by all the marketing. Less than 10 % distance compared to my old bike the complete gearbox was gone.
Technology should have been more advanced but no way they will sell you something that can be used for decades. Planned obsolescence.
Greetings Eduard
Dc coupling, either through a straight piece of wire or a no insertion loss resistor has its applications.I have long used direct coupling. The big advantage turns out to be that I don't need to read posts about the audibility of capacitors.
Ed
Transformers are actually the superior ac coupling device, as its distortion curves propagate at the frequency roll off points when not driving the transformer core into 100% saturation. So, if I have a transformer made that has a frequency response of 2Hz to 200Khz, the operating range, say 10 Hz to 40Khz stays consistent in distortion and phase response.
Capacitor coupling is the inexpensive method of AC coupling. that is why its primarily used. In some applications, like processing equipment, there might be several dielectric types deployed in parallel to create desirable in-harmonic distortion characteristics. Most of the time, this is only seen in AC analysis as very few directly place across two different types in the coupling circuit, even though the results would be the same.
Look at this and the price - no wonder why many prefer 10 Eu capacitors :
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/exxelia/A751259/14762721
Characteristics look good me thinks.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/exxelia/A751259/14762721
Characteristics look good me thinks.
Depends on your faith.I have long used direct coupling. The big advantage turns out to be that I don't need to read posts about the audibility of capacitors.
Ed
Me, I belong to the sect that believes a signal block item is as important as a signal pass item.
So I still have to worry about filters and bypass.
If you want to know, teflon film capacitors are the lowest distortion and lowest insertion loss capacitor.
Problem has always been , they are really expensive:
https://partsconnexion.com/collections/solen-3q-series-film-capacitors
Hi krca45,
I got an http 404 error with your link ...
Hi thisusername,
Capacitors have fewer shortcomings than transformers as far as comparing to the ideal component. Each have their best applications to be honest, but I do not like seeing transformers in the audio signal path. As IF filters / coupling transformers - nothing better. That's one reason I own a Revox B261 tuner. Maybe as an MC step up as well.
Hi Ed,
You should always use a coupling capacitor when indicated. Sometimes for DC offset protection, and certainly amplifying stages should operate at their designed DC conditions (no unplanned DC offset). Variable controls are always noisy when they have a DC potential across them.
I have no need to read about coupling capacitors either - 'cause I know what to use and why. I just hate watching people destroy equipment and spend a lot of money on useless endeavours. Probably because in the last decade I am more of a janitor cleaning up other people's messes instead of actually repairing equipment.
Folks,
At this moment I am rebuilding a pair of McIntosh MC60 amplifiers that some mentally challenged individuals (two shops) decided to not only replace capacitors, but to rewire and install a power transformer for output tube bias. I had to strip these completely, install proper 600V wire (the 300V crap they used is supposed to "sound better"). Resistors with too low a breakdown voltage rating and th e list goes on. No, they didn't work when I got them. The client is out around $3K due to this. I haven't even started to bill him. I get all brands of gear in in varying degrees of "upgrade destruction". So yeah, this part of the industry ticks me off.
I have a few more on my racks waiting. One is a Marantz 8, an idiot decided he knew more about grounding than the engineers. Now I am waiting for another Marantz 8 to get that part of the wiring right. You don't want to know what he did about components, a disaster.
I measure performance before and after each job - that's if I can get "as found" readings. So I really do know what works and what doesn't. Yes, I listen to each as well, and my speakers are flat (measured a couple times) and 99 dB/watt efficient. There isn't much I won't hear. I'm not the only one who does this, and our conclusions agree. My clients also agree. The audio fashion industry is responsible for more wasted money and destroyed equipment than you can shake a stick at. That and people who fully believe they are good technicians when they aren't even close.
I got an http 404 error with your link ...
Hi thisusername,
Capacitors have fewer shortcomings than transformers as far as comparing to the ideal component. Each have their best applications to be honest, but I do not like seeing transformers in the audio signal path. As IF filters / coupling transformers - nothing better. That's one reason I own a Revox B261 tuner. Maybe as an MC step up as well.
Hi Ed,
You should always use a coupling capacitor when indicated. Sometimes for DC offset protection, and certainly amplifying stages should operate at their designed DC conditions (no unplanned DC offset). Variable controls are always noisy when they have a DC potential across them.
I have no need to read about coupling capacitors either - 'cause I know what to use and why. I just hate watching people destroy equipment and spend a lot of money on useless endeavours. Probably because in the last decade I am more of a janitor cleaning up other people's messes instead of actually repairing equipment.
Folks,
At this moment I am rebuilding a pair of McIntosh MC60 amplifiers that some mentally challenged individuals (two shops) decided to not only replace capacitors, but to rewire and install a power transformer for output tube bias. I had to strip these completely, install proper 600V wire (the 300V crap they used is supposed to "sound better"). Resistors with too low a breakdown voltage rating and th e list goes on. No, they didn't work when I got them. The client is out around $3K due to this. I haven't even started to bill him. I get all brands of gear in in varying degrees of "upgrade destruction". So yeah, this part of the industry ticks me off.
I have a few more on my racks waiting. One is a Marantz 8, an idiot decided he knew more about grounding than the engineers. Now I am waiting for another Marantz 8 to get that part of the wiring right. You don't want to know what he did about components, a disaster.
I measure performance before and after each job - that's if I can get "as found" readings. So I really do know what works and what doesn't. Yes, I listen to each as well, and my speakers are flat (measured a couple times) and 99 dB/watt efficient. There isn't much I won't hear. I'm not the only one who does this, and our conclusions agree. My clients also agree. The audio fashion industry is responsible for more wasted money and destroyed equipment than you can shake a stick at. That and people who fully believe they are good technicians when they aren't even close.
Hi thisusername,
Yes, Teflon are, and we use them for specific things. However, the other capacitor types are more than close enough to being perfect for audio.
Teflon has exceedingly low leakage current, so useful for very high impedance applications. We do not have that situation in audio and chasing this kind of perfection makes zero sense. In other words, over Polypropylene, they ain't going to help you one tiny bit.
Yes, Teflon are, and we use them for specific things. However, the other capacitor types are more than close enough to being perfect for audio.
Teflon has exceedingly low leakage current, so useful for very high impedance applications. We do not have that situation in audio and chasing this kind of perfection makes zero sense. In other words, over Polypropylene, they ain't going to help you one tiny bit.
Just search Exxelia on Digi-key in Aluminum Capacitor section. Here is the whole link :
https://www.digikey.com/en/products...Aam049I-YWMnS5ilaQC0Ebbv1FSFSNQAbGbIAMxsypFAA
---------------
My comment regarding Exxelia was comparing them with other 400 Vdc "standard" electrolytics in PSU application.
( When we build our own tube pre-amps - amps from scratch / beginning ).
Sure I've seen CDE 947 CD-Link series in the same price range .... for PSU.
Teflon - it makes sense for coupling or maybe in a loudspeaker crossovers but for PSU application - don't know.
----------------
Here's the link to the Exxelia products :
https://exxelia.com/en/product/list/capacitors/aluminum-electrolytic
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Hi krca45,
I guess the Canadian site doesn't carry those capacitors. No worries, I am very familiar with Teflon capacitors and have used them (not for audio).
I do design and build tube amps from scratch. Most good bulk filter capacitors will do fine, and I use can styles.
Teflon only makes sense for very high impedance applications. They are large in size and with audio do not offer any advantage at all. Their sheer size can be a huge drawback in fact. They are large antennas.
For loudspeakers you need a foil conductor to handle the high peak currents. There are times when an Electrolytic capacitor makes the most engineering sense. However if anyone is that worried about crossover quality there really is only one solution. Active crossovers. Period.
I guess the Canadian site doesn't carry those capacitors. No worries, I am very familiar with Teflon capacitors and have used them (not for audio).
I do design and build tube amps from scratch. Most good bulk filter capacitors will do fine, and I use can styles.
Teflon only makes sense for very high impedance applications. They are large in size and with audio do not offer any advantage at all. Their sheer size can be a huge drawback in fact. They are large antennas.
For loudspeakers you need a foil conductor to handle the high peak currents. There are times when an Electrolytic capacitor makes the most engineering sense. However if anyone is that worried about crossover quality there really is only one solution. Active crossovers. Period.
anatech - I design and build solid-state amplifiers. I use seven different types of capacitors, all in the right places, and no capacitors where they are not needed.
My system has one coupling capacitor between the phono cartridge and speakers. It also has two DC feedback loops.
The only capacitors that affect the sound are in the RIAA EQ. Those are nice polypropylene capacitors.
Ed
My system has one coupling capacitor between the phono cartridge and speakers. It also has two DC feedback loops.
The only capacitors that affect the sound are in the RIAA EQ. Those are nice polypropylene capacitors.
Ed
Hi Ed,
Cool, you can do that. I can think of a few places where it would have been easier to use coupling caps in common designs. Keep in mind I have no idea what you have done, but I have some ideas.
I deal with solid state and tube electronics. Coupling capacitors are anything but evil, and you really cannot hear them if they do not filter the audio band. With today's caps, use the correct types and they are inaudible.
One thing about design work. If you chase an ideal, sometimes you can impair performance over what it could have been. It's all about balancing for the best outcome. You may well have done that, I do know of others who have ended up with a less than satisfactory design by focusing on one thing or another while ignoring the big picture.
Keep in mind my comments are very general in nature.
Cool, you can do that. I can think of a few places where it would have been easier to use coupling caps in common designs. Keep in mind I have no idea what you have done, but I have some ideas.
I deal with solid state and tube electronics. Coupling capacitors are anything but evil, and you really cannot hear them if they do not filter the audio band. With today's caps, use the correct types and they are inaudible.
One thing about design work. If you chase an ideal, sometimes you can impair performance over what it could have been. It's all about balancing for the best outcome. You may well have done that, I do know of others who have ended up with a less than satisfactory design by focusing on one thing or another while ignoring the big picture.
Keep in mind my comments are very general in nature.
anatech - The main downside to designing without coupling capacitors is that the transistor count becomes large. The circuits have to be DC amplifiers. I am happy to trade-off more transistors for fewer capacitors (but that may be because I am a hobbyist). The performance is unsurpassed.
Of course, I am ignoring the coupling capacitors in my digital source and in the recording equipment! I am confident they were chosen not to affect the sound. They may pose more of a reliability problem, but at least it is not in my designs.
Ed
Of course, I am ignoring the coupling capacitors in my digital source and in the recording equipment! I am confident they were chosen not to affect the sound. They may pose more of a reliability problem, but at least it is not in my designs.
Ed
Hi Ed,
lol!
Honestly, complexity revolves around linearizing the active components. I do that in tube and solid state design, resulting in lower distortion and noise. Sometimes you gain transconductance as well.
That means that fewer active devices can mean you are locked into higher distortion and noise. Counterintuitive I know. The basic rule is, make it as linear (lowest distortion as reasonably possible), then wrap a high amount of feedback around it while keeping it stable as possible. That flies in the face of many audio "experts", but it is how we got to have such amazing op amps these days.
So to lower distortion in the forward path, you simply arrange things so those active devices are operating as linearly as possible while making sure they don't leave their linear active regions. Normally this only happens during clipping, then you want it to recover as quickly and nicely a possible. This can be a tall order and where otherwise great sounding designs fall down. Power supply rejection is another factor.
That is why a classic single-ended design is so susceptible to power supply noise and interstage feedback. Purists love that crap!
lol!
Honestly, complexity revolves around linearizing the active components. I do that in tube and solid state design, resulting in lower distortion and noise. Sometimes you gain transconductance as well.
That means that fewer active devices can mean you are locked into higher distortion and noise. Counterintuitive I know. The basic rule is, make it as linear (lowest distortion as reasonably possible), then wrap a high amount of feedback around it while keeping it stable as possible. That flies in the face of many audio "experts", but it is how we got to have such amazing op amps these days.
So to lower distortion in the forward path, you simply arrange things so those active devices are operating as linearly as possible while making sure they don't leave their linear active regions. Normally this only happens during clipping, then you want it to recover as quickly and nicely a possible. This can be a tall order and where otherwise great sounding designs fall down. Power supply rejection is another factor.
That is why a classic single-ended design is so susceptible to power supply noise and interstage feedback. Purists love that crap!
capacitors have more shortcomings. At least a transformer properly engineered and fitted to the application will always outperform a capacitor. Even more so over time.
Interesting that the audiophile would have differences of opinions than what is common in mastering grade equipment that is either DC coupled or ac coupled with transformers.