@jerome69 - Thank you 
I have full 10 channel DSP, 200W in 8 ohm per channel and already settled on a Coax and 4 subwoofers. I need 4 x 8" drivers(two a side, either under or around the Coax,, to fill the area of around 50-60Hz to 4-500Hz.
I think I can manage up to 40 liters per driver, without making the cabinet too big and heavy(have to be carried to the second floor on steps).
I wanted the cabinet to be a bit slim, looks nicer, elegant and to make the Coax work well. This is why I don't aim for 10" drivers... but on the other hand, 6-7" woofers seems to lack "physics", to move the air enough to be heard as a proper "snap" or "whack" on a drum. Or to feel the fullness of bigger instruments, without making it "boomy" or "boxy".
When it comes to looks. The Satori WO24, might be the only one actually having a good motor, nice design and looks. Even though it would be nice with black alu-membrane, to match the black KEF coax drivers I play with at the moment.
Could also be fun, to maybe play with the idea to build a larger copy of the KEF R3 - using a PTT8.0X04-NAB-01. Though... the price
I have full 10 channel DSP, 200W in 8 ohm per channel and already settled on a Coax and 4 subwoofers. I need 4 x 8" drivers(two a side, either under or around the Coax,, to fill the area of around 50-60Hz to 4-500Hz.
I think I can manage up to 40 liters per driver, without making the cabinet too big and heavy(have to be carried to the second floor on steps).
I wanted the cabinet to be a bit slim, looks nicer, elegant and to make the Coax work well. This is why I don't aim for 10" drivers... but on the other hand, 6-7" woofers seems to lack "physics", to move the air enough to be heard as a proper "snap" or "whack" on a drum. Or to feel the fullness of bigger instruments, without making it "boomy" or "boxy".
When it comes to looks. The Satori WO24, might be the only one actually having a good motor, nice design and looks. Even though it would be nice with black alu-membrane, to match the black KEF coax drivers I play with at the moment.
Could also be fun, to maybe play with the idea to build a larger copy of the KEF R3 - using a PTT8.0X04-NAB-01. Though... the price
And this is why I'm using subwoofers and aim to not push any 8" woofer, to play lower than around 50Hz. The answer to myself, might hide in the fact, that I'm usually drawn towards woofers (mid-woofers), that are able to play a bit of lower midrange as-well. Both, with respect to having more bandwidth to play with. But also because most filter designs are easier, when you leave break-up modes well beyond 4 octaves away.
Interesting suggestions and thoughts
I would definitely skip deeper bass below 50Hz for better definition and detail in the upper mid-bass area. And this is also the reason I reopened this tread. I wanted to expand on the use of woofers today, where we no longer need very deep extension, since subwoofers can take over.
Pattern control with cardioid designs, might be the next step, since masking might drown benefits from better drivers - cant hear the subtle effects, when the room reflections "hides" the details - so to speak. - But that is a whole other story.
You have an active DSP, you are the king of the world ! With DSP you can do anything !@jerome69 - Thank you
I have full 10 channel DSP, 200W in 8 ohm per channel and already settled on a Coax and 4 subwoofers. I need 4 x 8" drivers(two a side, either under or around the Coax,, to fill the area of around 50-60Hz to 4-500Hz.
I think I can manage up to 40 liters per driver, without making the cabinet too big and heavy(have to be carried to the second floor on steps).
I wanted the cabinet to be a bit slim, looks nicer, elegant and to make the Coax work well. This is why I don't aim for 10" drivers... but on the other hand, 6-7" woofers seems to lack "physics", to move the air enough to be heard as a proper "snap" or "whack" on a drum. Or to feel the fullness of bigger instruments, without making it "boomy" or "boxy".
When it comes to looks. The Satori WO24, might be the only one actually having a good motor, nice design and looks. Even though it would be nice with black alu-membrane, to match the black KEF coax drivers I play with at the moment.
Could also be fun, to maybe play with the idea to build a larger copy of the KEF R3 - using a PTT8.0X04-NAB-01. Though... the price
Make sure the coax can cope with 2x8" at 500 Hz when play loud.
You have choices of 8". Don't hesitate to look pro drivers, you have good drivers like SICA 8h2cp, 18sound 8nmb420.The look is not their first concern but price quality ratio is very high.
Well.... you know just like me, that nothing is better than the way it is used
So me mentioning what I use, is just to give an idea of my aim with DIY and the purpose of reopening this tread, since I wanted to take a fresher view on the topic.Tried to simulate the 8nmb420. It is a light midrange driver, and therefore falls quickly below 120Hz. Adding 5-10 grams of mass with some epoxy filler, could maybe push it down to 60-70Hz where I would like it to go. The Sica looks much nice... rolls off around 80Hz.... in twice the volume... but thats still just 30 liters.... like almost all other hifi 8" drivers. I just need to make some sort of cover for the ugly edge, since the driver is designed to be mounted from the inside of a cabinet.
Another thing. Is there any true compromise in choosing the RS225 over the Disco 8534G00. The disco will perform the same ( freuqency response ) - but needs 80 liters, rather than the 50, that the Dayton needs. I heard the term "suffocation!, when a driver is put in to little a cabinet. Yes - the Q increase. I knock the bump down that the increased Q results in. But then what? In some way, does that solution change anything when it comes to sound quality?
Is it simply a matter of lower moving mass... 21 vs 36. Or maybe combined with a higher Qms? Resulting in the need for a bigger cabinet, to reach lower frequencies?
And finally. Do moving mass matter, when it comes to the ability to play detailed bass notes between 100-600Hz?
Is it simply a matter of lower moving mass... 21 vs 36. Or maybe combined with a higher Qms? Resulting in the need for a bigger cabinet, to reach lower frequencies?
And finally. Do moving mass matter, when it comes to the ability to play detailed bass notes between 100-600Hz?
5th element, had a pretty nice comment about woofers here:
https://www.htguide.com/forum/forum...sing-a-woofer-to-anchor-my-3-way-floorstander
https://www.htguide.com/forum/forum...sing-a-woofer-to-anchor-my-3-way-floorstander
Any of the usual suspect 8" drivers should fit what you want (50-500hz); it will just come down to anecdotes on midbass quality, price, any 3rd party measurements, material prejudices, looks.
Why not closed, eh? You will be using subs and DSP for bass eq. This opens up lots of options. 22W 4 and 8 ohm, Monacor SPH220HQ and Daytons.
Best looking one to my eye might be Wavecor WF223BDxx, though not as cheap. Are you ruling out your countrymans' L22?!
Why not closed, eh? You will be using subs and DSP for bass eq. This opens up lots of options. 22W 4 and 8 ohm, Monacor SPH220HQ and Daytons.
Best looking one to my eye might be Wavecor WF223BDxx, though not as cheap. Are you ruling out your countrymans' L22?!
oh - sorry. Forgot to mention that I'm definitely going closed. It's just easier and mostly I prefer the "cleaner" sound of closed boxes.
I also looked at Wavecor - it is very encouraging that they have such a thorough datasheet.
Yes - L22 has definitely been on my list. Often they are just mentioned as a driver with a sub-par motor.. and the naked alu cone, makes me wonder how to implement it into a finished speaker design. And why would it be a choice to begin with, compared to already mentioned drivers. It's not cheaper, it's not better made... so?
I could go for Seas Excel.... looks loverly.... but paying double... only for looks?
L18 is well-thought of, and has its fans for low distortion in passband, and the bass available in non-assisted form. L22 is the same family. Low sensitivity not so much an issue with DSP. Unusual looks. Pretty good excursion. Metal drivers always split opinions, I suppose. No cheaper in Norway? Oof.
I think the difference is, that many modern measurements of drivers, have shown that distortion from motor design, has changed quite a bit - for the better. I agree that some type of distortion might not be heard easily. But at the same price point, one might just choose the one with less.
RS225P is quite overlooked. It measures well, is likely easier to cross over compared to alu versions, and its sound might suit better to paper midrange.
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/dayton-audio/dayton-audio-rs225p-8a
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/dayton-audio/dayton-audio-rs225p-8a
Would be interesting if he also measured the RS225 alu.. so that we could see a direct comparison. I prefer hard cones for midrange and tweeter... simply more clarity and detail.... besides... clever design and filtering, can easily remove resonances and other possible negatives from the hard dome/cone. KEF made variable thickness on the tweeter dome and moved the resonance close to 40kHz. And they made a simple damping around the area where the cone is glued to the voice coil.... and gone was the resonance - at least within the usable range.
In this case I prefer a so called boom box alignment to get very loud area around the tuning frequency between 60-100Hz.Interesting suggestions and thoughts
I would definitely skip deeper bass below 50Hz for better definition and detail in the upper mid-bass area. And this is also the reason I reopened this tread. I wanted to expand on the use of woofers today, where we no longer need very deep extension, since subwoofers can take over.
Pattern control with cardioid designs, might be the next step, since masking might drown benefits from better drivers - cant hear the subtle effects, when the room reflections "hides" the details - so to speak. - But that is a whole other story.
Due an additional high pass filter the whole frequency response is flat with f3 of approximately 45-65Hz (dependent of the volume for enclosure).
Perfect condition you will have, when no compression effect occurs on the vented area.
Therefore it is absolutely necessary, that the surface of vented port is at least 50% - better 100% - i. e. the same Sd value of surface area of the cone resp. diaphragm from the used driver resp. transducer, normally given in square cm. This is only possible with a boom box alignment.
check out this URLs:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230521074300/http://www.wjjhoge.com/Electroacoustics/bb4/bb4.html
http://www.wjjhoge.com/Electroacoustics/bb4/bb4.html
https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/vented-box/index.html
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...4-alignment-wanted-for-fostex-fe83nv2.394690/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...fer-using-a-cap-instead-of-a-resistor.273701/
check out the pictures in post #5 under
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...oofer-precision-devices-pd2150-inside.197034/
the last image show an example for such a BB4 vented box equipped with a Fostex 12W360 and first image in post #1 under
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...rom-magazines-voice-coil-or-klang-ton.404044/
datasheet of this driver you will find in post #166 under
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/best-woofer-50hz-300hz-hi-eff-maybe-15.158170/page-9
an example with two 8' drivers from Fane - go to
https://www.fane-international.com/downloads/FANE-SOVEREIGN-PRO-8225-DS141117.pdf
are in the attachment; excellent driver, no compression effects are to note; tuning frequency approximately 55-60Hz, volume without wood plates and sand filling: 80 L
Attachments
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This area interests me as I like the old AR-6's. Independently tested to show an F6 of 40Hz that could be extended to 30. Not low enough some would say but this sort of figure is pretty typical of low end woofers, Works as it's enough to capture low end harmonics and gives what can be seen as acceptable results. I also know that these speaker have adequate volume.
AR appear to have done this in a rather small well stuffed box - hope I remember my calcs correctly ~18L. The 8" driver has low resonance. Seems it was 25Hz.
The only driver I can find that may do the same or better is this one.
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/seas-cd22rn4x.html
Like you I have no interest in going lower. I'd also like to add - why do people think Seas make this driver? It's capable of putting out 95dB at 30Hz
https://loudspeakerdatabase.com/SEAS/H1192-08_CD22RN4X
AR-6 2 way. I think this driver would need 3. I too would be interested in comments but forget going lower. Suitable in usage terms - Seas must have some reason to make it.
Well. As I see it, Seas did a bit like Dayton did with the HF(like normal Seas) and HO( like Seas 4X ) subwoofers. They used a 4 layer voice coil and a heavier cone in the HO ( High Output) to make them play in smaller cabinets, for the price of precision, inductance and detail - In subwoofers you might hear this a bit of added boominess and fullness - some like this though. This halves the need for cabinet volume for the driver, but raises the inductance to double. This will affect higher frequencies.... namely, your mentioned Seas driver is going into trouble around 400Hz. This limits the filter options and require a midrange that can cross lower. I do not need to play deeper frequencies with my woofers in my system. So would rather have low inductance and lighter cones.
Seas seem to like break up problems in awkward places yet people like them My thoughts were ~200Hz without adding corrections. There are plenty of mid moderate bass that will go lower but final cabinet size probably suffers. The AR-6 cabinet is 49x30x18cm. Baffle thickness ~20mm, the rest probably thinner. I'd guess 16mm, Assuming all 20mm that means 16+L.They used a ribbed paper cone but the ribs went on a later version. I'm getting the impression it's impossible to duplicate these with currently available drivers.
There is a driver clearly intended for subwoofers. FS 25hz where the spl plot just rolls off
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/grs-8sw-4he-8.html