John L said:
Hi John,
You seem like a nice guy, a little on the arrogant side (don't tell Roman), but who isn't?
When I veneer something, I use contact cement. If I had a vacuum press, I'd still use contact cement. Why? It's never failed me. And yes, I still have furniture that I built many years ago that hasn't shown any failure.
Contact cement is prepared for immediate use. Reducing it reduces the bonding strength. Acetone is not the correct solvent for CC and shouldn't be used. Lacquer thinner is a better match, but still shouldn't be used. Safe to use the manufacturers reducer, but they will advise against it's use.
MJL21193 said:
No, I am not arrogant. Like I mentioned before, I am an old Fart, who also happens to be a "pompous @ss". There is a slight difference there.
You are one lucky son-of-a-gun.
Again I must disagree. All acetone does is make the solution thinner, so it will apply smoother, and evaporate quicker, so more even coats can be applied. I went to my trusty book "Veneering: a Foundation Course", by Mike Burton. Mr Burton is quite popular in the veneer trade, and he has a great sense of humour. First I did a Google of "Reducing Contact Cement", and the number one reference was from his book. Imagine that!?
If you go to the on line article in his book, which is on page 83 of that edition you will find the following:
Now, I copied this from my own book, and it was on page 63, since it is perhaps a later edition, but the words are still the same. Note that he recommends acetone. This has been the prevailing recommendation for years, because it really works.
What else can I say, without appearing to be arrogant? It's not worth the argument. If you like CC, use it. But there are still better alternatives out there.
John L said:
Do you believe everything you read? How about reading the instructions on the can?
Once again, acetone is not the solvent for contact cement. You can buy the correct solvent (made by the manufacturer) to thin the glue if you want. I'm more inclined (like others) to take the word of the people who actually make the product, rather than guess or take second hand "knowledge" as fact.
Maybe that's the reason why I've had good "luck" with the veneering I've done.
Roman, here is the quarter matched laural burl that I am going to apply to the top of the livingroom end table, which is also made for a subwoofer. Normally I would use Titebond II by securing all four pieces with veneer tape, and then applying both the substrate and underside of the assemblied burl shown in the picture.
Do you have a better option, other than the Titebond II? I am assuming that you would recommend Unibond 800 or a powdered Catalyzed adhesive, right? Unfortunately I don't have any available locally to the best of my knowledge.
What worried me most are the holes in which glue could seep up, onto the veneer. The holes are small, granted, but they are still present. How do you eliminate the possibility of ruining the veneer with those holes? Also keep in mind that the holes are not large enough to use a punch to make filler veneer.
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Do you have a better option, other than the Titebond II? I am assuming that you would recommend Unibond 800 or a powdered Catalyzed adhesive, right? Unfortunately I don't have any available locally to the best of my knowledge.
What worried me most are the holes in which glue could seep up, onto the veneer. The holes are small, granted, but they are still present. How do you eliminate the possibility of ruining the veneer with those holes? Also keep in mind that the holes are not large enough to use a punch to make filler veneer.
Unfortunately, it is almost always a problem with burls. Glue size
http://www.veneersystems.com/index.php/action/item/id/219/prevaction/category/previd/3/prevstart/0/
helps somewhat but if the veneer is a Swiss cheese variety, the good way to minimize the problem is to color match the glue to the veneer. Yellow glue can be matched with a water-soluble aniline die. Unibond 800 comes with differently colored catalyst. Either glue will go through somewhat.
Here’s the trick.
The thickness of the glue applied, has to be just right. A good quality glue roller is a miracle tool but it cost over a $100 and you could use a paint tray and a paint roller instead.
You need to have an even thin coverage. Too thick of a glue coverage will cause it to bleed through and make sanding and staining a nightmare. Let it dry over night and try to create an even clamping pressure.
Have you ever tried edge glue your veneer pieces before applying the face?
http://www.veneersystems.com/index.php/action/item/id/219/prevaction/category/previd/3/prevstart/0/
helps somewhat but if the veneer is a Swiss cheese variety, the good way to minimize the problem is to color match the glue to the veneer. Yellow glue can be matched with a water-soluble aniline die. Unibond 800 comes with differently colored catalyst. Either glue will go through somewhat.
Here’s the trick.
The thickness of the glue applied, has to be just right. A good quality glue roller is a miracle tool but it cost over a $100 and you could use a paint tray and a paint roller instead.
You need to have an even thin coverage. Too thick of a glue coverage will cause it to bleed through and make sanding and staining a nightmare. Let it dry over night and try to create an even clamping pressure.
Have you ever tried edge glue your veneer pieces before applying the face?
It's not Suisse Cheese, only very small holes.
And yes, I am using a glue roller.
Had it for years, actually purchased it for spreading vinyl glue for wallpaper. Don't know how anybody lives without one. Not the same as the one you use though, but it will still work, I think.
One thing that is a definate plus is that it is laurel burl, which has a yellow tint to it to begin with.
I'm going to go for it in a couple of days, after I finish the other two sides to the box. I'll let you know how it comes out.
And yes, I am using a glue roller.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Had it for years, actually purchased it for spreading vinyl glue for wallpaper. Don't know how anybody lives without one. Not the same as the one you use though, but it will still work, I think.
One thing that is a definate plus is that it is laurel burl, which has a yellow tint to it to begin with.
I'm going to go for it in a couple of days, after I finish the other two sides to the box. I'll let you know how it comes out.
Guys, have you been on the internet such a short time, that you are unable to recognize ping-ping posting when you see it?
Logically and reasonably, you are both right... and you are both wrong. Like everything else in life, each of the suggested gluing methods has its own pluses and minuses, and that is compounded by the skill level and personal preferences of the individual. All of us neutral by-stander can see that...why can't you?
Personally, I don't like Contact Cement for the very reasons specified. I can't get thin uniform layers, and it tends to be clumpy and blobby. Yet, if I were working on a project, I would probably still use it because it is consistent with my skill level and the tools and equipment I have available. Life is a compromise get over it.
I remember when I was making one of my first pairs of speakers. I have very few tools to work with; primarily just a common hand-held 7" circular saw. Well, I knew I wasn't going to cut nice miters using that. So, I didn't even use butt joints. I glued and screwed the top and sides to a 2x2 and left a right angle gap in the corner which I them filled with 3/4" coving. I thought the results looked nice.
Was that the best method? NO. But it was a method that worked well within the resources I had available, and it is the same with gluing method. You've both pointed out the positives and negatives of your methods.
True Contact Cement is quick and easy, and it is instant. Those are good positive attributes, but it is also difficult to apply evenly and not very forgiving.
Various form of wood glue are certainly the superior bond, but they are fussy and fiddly, and lots of things can go wrong, and they take a lot of time.
Neither method is the right method, there is only YOUR preferred method. And I would like you both to trust that the rest of us are not brain-dead idiots, and that we can weigh your pluses and minuses and make up our own mind based on our available resources, skill level, and available time.
I concede that most people use some version of Contact Cement, and it works fine, but working fine does not mean it is the ideal method ... again, all things considered.
Just trying to add some perspective.
Steve/bluewizard
Logically and reasonably, you are both right... and you are both wrong. Like everything else in life, each of the suggested gluing methods has its own pluses and minuses, and that is compounded by the skill level and personal preferences of the individual. All of us neutral by-stander can see that...why can't you?
Personally, I don't like Contact Cement for the very reasons specified. I can't get thin uniform layers, and it tends to be clumpy and blobby. Yet, if I were working on a project, I would probably still use it because it is consistent with my skill level and the tools and equipment I have available. Life is a compromise get over it.
I remember when I was making one of my first pairs of speakers. I have very few tools to work with; primarily just a common hand-held 7" circular saw. Well, I knew I wasn't going to cut nice miters using that. So, I didn't even use butt joints. I glued and screwed the top and sides to a 2x2 and left a right angle gap in the corner which I them filled with 3/4" coving. I thought the results looked nice.
Was that the best method? NO. But it was a method that worked well within the resources I had available, and it is the same with gluing method. You've both pointed out the positives and negatives of your methods.
True Contact Cement is quick and easy, and it is instant. Those are good positive attributes, but it is also difficult to apply evenly and not very forgiving.
Various form of wood glue are certainly the superior bond, but they are fussy and fiddly, and lots of things can go wrong, and they take a lot of time.
Neither method is the right method, there is only YOUR preferred method. And I would like you both to trust that the rest of us are not brain-dead idiots, and that we can weigh your pluses and minuses and make up our own mind based on our available resources, skill level, and available time.
I concede that most people use some version of Contact Cement, and it works fine, but working fine does not mean it is the ideal method ... again, all things considered.
Just trying to add some perspective.
Steve/bluewizard
Steve, Both Roman and I are professionals in the interor design industry. I make frames, then pad and upholster them, plus other things. But Roman is a professional in the veneer business, and his work is Very Good. He did not get there by being uninformed. I know just enough to get in trouble, but I do know a professional when I see it.
That is where the acetone comes in. If you had used one third acetone and two thirds CC, you could have brushed on a thin coat, had it dry quickly, and it would NOT have been clumpy or blobby. Trust me.
And why should I have to compromise on something, if I don't have to?
Like it or not, ALL of us are Conservative, by nature, because we always tend to fall back on what worked for us in the past. It is also fear of failure too. Those, who are not willing to move out "on the margin" will not reap the profits, as they say on Wall Street.
This is important to remember. There are basically three types of adhesives in the veneer business.
The First is that of flexible adhesives. CC is a flexible adhesive. If you paint some on a piece of veneer, let it dry and then try to bend it, it will be highly flexible. This is not good when wood is concerned, because wood tends to move around, due to temperature and moisture. If an adhesive is flexible, the wood will move around, seams will pull apart, etc.
The Second is that of semi-permanent adhesives, which include all sorts of PVA glues. if you paint some on a piece of veneer, let it dry and then try to bend it, it will bend some, but will break, because it is somewhat brittle. Veneers, unless they are going to be under stress work well with PVA glue, better than CC.
the third is that of permanent adhesives. These are the adhesives Roman has advised me to use. I have never tried them, but will be soon. If you paint it on veneer, let it dry, and then try to bend the veneer, it will not give at all, untill it suddenly breaks into many pieces. It is totally rigid and will Never allow the veneer to move around. Once the chemical process solidifies the adhesive, you will need something like C4 to loosen it up.
As I said, I have never used these resins, but have been reading about them in the last 24 hours. What I Really like about them is that once you apply the adhesive, you have about 25-30 minutes to fix lunch, drink a beer, and take your time before it starts setting up. With PVA, you had better have one Serious Sense of Urgency, because it starts setting up almost immediately.
That is why we tend to purchase tools as we go along. It's natural. I need certain power tools for my business, but I would have them anyway. A table saw and air system are indespensible, IMO. You will learn and collect as you go along.
Try acetone.
Actually, they are not all that difficult. You just need a good roller, like I show above, and wood clamps. You can get these clamps at Harbor Freight at a wonderful price. I have recently bought some from there, and they work very well. If you can learn to crank them tight, and use a sheet of plywood as a pressure medium, you are in business. All you need is some patience.
Perhaps I should start a thread showing how to do this, and use bookmatching?
Thanks Steve, you are a real gentleman. And I appreciate your diplomacy and candor. But 'right method' means a different thing to professionals and some amateurs. I would not consider putting together a complicated cornice with upholstery tacks or a hand operated stapler. I use a pneumatic system, along with Duo-Fast, Senco staplers, which are like using a Ferrari. In fact, I can make a professional cornice that is done, from start to finish, in about 1 1/2 hours. Some of it I can do with my eyes closed.
The point here is that the DIY scene is constantly improving. When I made my first speaker enclosure in the mid 60, through the mid 80s, making the cabinets look professional was not all that important. We were still working on the theory of how to make the cabinets "sound" good. Mr Small, of Thiele/Small fame, did not publish his essay on loudspeaker measurments until September 1972.
But in the last decade things are definately changing. Today the finish of the cabinets are beginning to take on just as much importance as the quality of the sound. This is natural, as DIYers want to have their work not only sound Great, but also look Great as well. That is why there is so much of a push to use the techniques that Real Professionals use.
I don't know Roman from Adam, but I assume that his business web site is the product of his workmanship, and what I see impresses the living He!! out of me. And I WANT him to pass on his expertise to me, and others, so I can be very profficient with veneers too, not that I want to compete with him.
I want to learn. And the only way to learn is to pay attention, and actually try to emulate what he does. If he tells us that CC is the least advisable adhesive, then you can take it to the bank. Not that I don't already know this personally, but I do. I have graduated to the PVA, and actually bookmatch and quartermatch, which is more than most do. But if you are going to learn to make beauriful cabinets, that stand out from the rest, you must learn how to do detailed veneering.
And it's not all that hard either, after you do it once or twice. But you are going to make mistakes, which is natural. As the saying goes, "If you aren't making any mistakes, you aren't doing anything."
As for me, I want to have the very best possible. Lord, I even want to make a pair of stands that are curved, like the picture above, where the stands are laminated, flowing and then veneered in something like cherry, or Santos, or Karelian birch, or birdseye maple, or waterfall bubinga, or.........................well you get the point. There are so many beautiful veneers out there, and I want to try them all! But If I can't learn and apply that new knowledge, I will never get to do what I want to do.
I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry for pontificating, but I really want to be good at this thing, and I am willing to step up and learn how the pros do it.
John L said:
Steve, Both Roman and I are professionals in the interor design industry.
Try acetone.
Perhaps I should start a thread showing how to do this, and use bookmatching?
But 'right method' means a different thing to professionals and some amateurs.
That is why there is so much of a push to use the techniques that Real Professionals use.
, and I am willing to step up and learn how the pros do it.
And you said you're not arrogant! That's a good one.
This will be my last post in this waste of time thread. You guys deserve each other - I'll leave it to you "true professionals".
My knowledge and ability are in question here, yet I have well documented both in the 2000+ posts to this forum.
Go figure.
Have fun with your shellac John.
Take it easy with your outrageously priced furniture Roman.
Oh, thank God.
Listen guys. I am a professional I do veneer work for a living. However, from now on, I will only advise on the personal bases.
John you’ve created argument while it wasn’t any. I agreed with you that while CC is far from the best method of veneer application it is acceptable for certain applications. You admitted the same yourself. Need I quote you or you could just go back to your own post? However, you don’t stop there, you suggest CC for every possible application. That is simply not correct and yes, this forum being DIY forum doesn’t necessarily require people putting their speakers together with nails and masking tape.
As I acknowledged before, there are better ways of doing things and it depends on the desired results and level of involvement. Some want to get more interesting layouts then available on paperback. If you are ok with paperback CCed to flat piece of MDF, God bless you. As it appears from the emails, I am getting people are looking for an improvement.
John, from your posts it’s quite obvious to me that you know your way around woodworking shop but it is also obvious to me that the amount of knowledge you have in this particular area is very limited. I’ve agreed with you quite a few times on other subject but not here. And I don’t even care if someone thins out CC with Mountain Moos pi..s. Your inability to listen to suggestion is stunning. If you had a vacuum press, you would use CC anyway? Well, so you know, if you stick your panel in VP, the holding strength of CC will increase probably by 2. I don’t care much for your other 2000+ posts. I care about this one and the amount of pressure that you are throwing in order to prove your point.
My outrageously expensive furniture? You can’t make anything like that, not with your CC anyway. And if you could, I could make it faster and better, that’s why pricing is so low. Hand made chair with 12way coil spring tie upholstery, in NY cost about $5k now days. So please open your own shop and put me out of business with your CC reasonably priced creations. At list I have local guys working for me and not getting my staff made in china. Got 2 orders from Canada couple of days ago.
Go ahead, get the cheap staff, and then wander why it brakes. IKEA is fantastic imo.
It’s not that I think my way is better, I wouldn’t even say that it’s my way. Go on Woodweb forum and ask around. I am an idiot, ok fine, ask other people. I get paid for consulting and troubleshooting ( in single malt scotch from friends) and here someone is arguing over something like CC. Don’t care any more. Bye.
Just want to add.
Why is it so insane that people that spend enormous amount of time designing, tweaking and making their speakers sound good, should ignore the appearance?
Listen guys. I am a professional I do veneer work for a living. However, from now on, I will only advise on the personal bases.
John you’ve created argument while it wasn’t any. I agreed with you that while CC is far from the best method of veneer application it is acceptable for certain applications. You admitted the same yourself. Need I quote you or you could just go back to your own post? However, you don’t stop there, you suggest CC for every possible application. That is simply not correct and yes, this forum being DIY forum doesn’t necessarily require people putting their speakers together with nails and masking tape.
As I acknowledged before, there are better ways of doing things and it depends on the desired results and level of involvement. Some want to get more interesting layouts then available on paperback. If you are ok with paperback CCed to flat piece of MDF, God bless you. As it appears from the emails, I am getting people are looking for an improvement.
John, from your posts it’s quite obvious to me that you know your way around woodworking shop but it is also obvious to me that the amount of knowledge you have in this particular area is very limited. I’ve agreed with you quite a few times on other subject but not here. And I don’t even care if someone thins out CC with Mountain Moos pi..s. Your inability to listen to suggestion is stunning. If you had a vacuum press, you would use CC anyway? Well, so you know, if you stick your panel in VP, the holding strength of CC will increase probably by 2. I don’t care much for your other 2000+ posts. I care about this one and the amount of pressure that you are throwing in order to prove your point.
My outrageously expensive furniture? You can’t make anything like that, not with your CC anyway. And if you could, I could make it faster and better, that’s why pricing is so low. Hand made chair with 12way coil spring tie upholstery, in NY cost about $5k now days. So please open your own shop and put me out of business with your CC reasonably priced creations. At list I have local guys working for me and not getting my staff made in china. Got 2 orders from Canada couple of days ago.
Go ahead, get the cheap staff, and then wander why it brakes. IKEA is fantastic imo.
It’s not that I think my way is better, I wouldn’t even say that it’s my way. Go on Woodweb forum and ask around. I am an idiot, ok fine, ask other people. I get paid for consulting and troubleshooting ( in single malt scotch from friends) and here someone is arguing over something like CC. Don’t care any more. Bye.
Just want to add.
Why is it so insane that people that spend enormous amount of time designing, tweaking and making their speakers sound good, should ignore the appearance?
R-Carpenter said:
Go back read my posts over again. Make an attempt at understanding what I have written.
R-Carpenter said:
Wanna bet??
Put your money where your mouth is.
I respect your ability and have not suggested that your work wasn't first rate, but it's time for you to take off your high hat my friend.
There are lots of craftsmen all over the world who are your equal or better, in every way. Knowledge, talent, skill.
I am a professional. I do veneer. I've pressed tens of thousands of square feet of veneer. I've found contact cement to be completely inadequate for veneer.
I never have and likely never will use paper backed veneer. Its so thin it doesn't ever finish to look like real wood. Its very expensive and available in limited sizes. Regardless wood and paper are not dimensionally stable and I would not use contact cement. I have laminated real veneers to plastic laminate backer sheets with urea resin for column wraps and such and attached that with contact cement to the column.
The vast majority of commercial speakers are veneered before the box is built. That is true for all veneer work not just speakers.
IMO contact cement is excellent if you want open seams, lifted corners and wavy surfaces.
Anyway ya'll do what you want. That's my free advice and I'm confidant it's worth every penny
I never have and likely never will use paper backed veneer. Its so thin it doesn't ever finish to look like real wood. Its very expensive and available in limited sizes. Regardless wood and paper are not dimensionally stable and I would not use contact cement. I have laminated real veneers to plastic laminate backer sheets with urea resin for column wraps and such and attached that with contact cement to the column.
The vast majority of commercial speakers are veneered before the box is built. That is true for all veneer work not just speakers.
IMO contact cement is excellent if you want open seams, lifted corners and wavy surfaces.
Anyway ya'll do what you want. That's my free advice and I'm confidant it's worth every penny
riff.ca said:
Ok
Until very recently I have never used paper backed veneer, and I am thankful for that. I have used factory stitched veneer, that is raw on the back. Mostly I have used strictly raw veneer, and am convinced that that is the very best approach. You can do so much more with it.
I've used exclusively PVA glues, but thanks to Roman's suggestions am going to move to urea resin for those problem veneers, like Santon and burls.
Recently I picked up some beech and maple paperbacked veneer off E-Bay very cheaply. I am in the middle of using the maple on an end table, and it is not doing what it should, with PVA. I'm reluctant to even consider CC, because I still have to stitch two pieces together. I'm less than thrilled with the outcome.
From a professional, business POV, that is the best way. However, DIYers are not in business and make their cabinets one at a time. Veneering the wood first may not be the best for the DIYer for this reason. Professionals do this because time is money, and they are in the business of making a profit. That is why they are called Professionals.
IMO contact cement is excellent if you want open seams, lifted corners and wavy surfaces.
Anyway ya'll do what you want. That's my free advice and I'm confidant it's worth every penny
I commented to Roman earlier that there is a distinct difference from a professional and an amateur. And I am not trying to put down the amateur, because with finish woodworking and veneering, I am a true amateur.
I have no doubt that some members here can make a nice piece of furniture, or very professional cabinet. But they are not on a timetable, and that is the difference. The pro can expect to make three or more items of the same thing than the amateur, because he/she(the pro) is in the business of making a profit, and the economics of Supply/Demand are paramount. Those not in the business are not aware of this. I have seen many people try to make corniece and save money, and usually I just smile and tell them to 'give it a go'. But by the time they can make one, I can have many finished.
I just won a contract to construct and install 68 cornices for a ten floor Raleigh Housing Authority building today. I can do this because I have made several thousand, know all the tricks, and know the economics of cost with relation to time. But with veneer, I am totally out of my element, and must rely on others, such as Roman, and you Riff, who do this for a living and can pass on your knowledge to me, so I can be very good and produce professional results. Personally I welcome your input, because I am always trying to learn more before I finally leave this Plain.
Thanks for your input. Don't be a stranger.
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