Riff, what sort of vacuum press do you use? Do you have pictures?
I'm definately in the market for one, or even making my own. I might as well go "whole hog" if I am going to produce nice looking things.
I've been boning up on the types out there and from what I see, I tend to agree with Roman: The electric vacuum pump is better all around to the venturi system.
I'm definately in the market for one, or even making my own. I might as well go "whole hog" if I am going to produce nice looking things.
I've been boning up on the types out there and from what I see, I tend to agree with Roman: The electric vacuum pump is better all around to the venturi system.
A question about pumps. This 5.5CFM Gast is brand new and costs $329.90 plus S/H. It looks like a nice unit.
This 3.15CFM Thomas, is a little smaller, but as a rebuilt, is only $139 plus S/H. The fact that the fan guard is missing tells me that it was used in an industrial application.
Does the difference in power make up for the great difference in price? Both brands are the top of the market. I am inclined to go with the Thomas, since I will not be using this on a continual basis.
This 3.15CFM Thomas, is a little smaller, but as a rebuilt, is only $139 plus S/H. The fact that the fan guard is missing tells me that it was used in an industrial application.
Does the difference in power make up for the great difference in price? Both brands are the top of the market. I am inclined to go with the Thomas, since I will not be using this on a continual basis.
John L said:
John,
I think the Compact 100 from Vacupress is a good choice for the hobbyist. I have used mine for about three years now and it is a great tool for the money. I did upgrade to a larger bag so I could do larger pieces but for 95% of the things I veneer, the stock 49"x49" bag would be fine.
I do 99% of my veneer gluing using Unibond from Vacupress as whether I am using the vac bag or not.
One thing to remember though, veneering in a vac bag is not a cure-all solution. For example, unless you are using a bladder system, you usually can't put an assembled cabinet in the vac bag as you run the risk of either crushing it, or stretching /tearing your bag.
Now if you are good enough with your woodworking to do all miter joints on your cabinet, you could preveneer all your panels before cutting them. I am not that good though, at least on larger cabinets. So I usually veneer the largest panels in the vac bag and then do the rest with clamps and cauls.
Many commercial cabinets are done with miterfold construction and the entire cabinet is made from one preveneered sheet and basically folded to assemble it. I haven't found a good way to do this without CNC though.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Dennis
Dennis, it looks nice. Only one problem I see with it. It only uses a 1CFM pump, which is far less than a 3 or 5.5 CFM pump.
From what I see, the Compact 100 is about $350, and a kit, using the Thomas 3.15 CFM pump would be about the same price.
Anyway, I'm still looking. Thanks for the info. I appreciate ALL suggestions.
From what I see, the Compact 100 is about $350, and a kit, using the Thomas 3.15 CFM pump would be about the same price.
Anyway, I'm still looking. Thanks for the info. I appreciate ALL suggestions.
John L, I use a venturi system from www.qualityvak.com If your compressor has enough CFM a venturi is hard to beat. No moving parts, oblivious to dust, no thermal overload and some reserve in the event of a power outage. Pumps work too. Give these guys a call, they seem like knowledgable good folks who sell both types.
For DIY I suppose www.joewoodworker.com is the best site.
R-Carpenter, I have used a resin treated paper for a balance sheet (b-face) for desktops and such. I never asked if the resin was phenolic but the product worked great, panels stayed flat.
For DIY I suppose www.joewoodworker.com is the best site.
R-Carpenter, I have used a resin treated paper for a balance sheet (b-face) for desktops and such. I never asked if the resin was phenolic but the product worked great, panels stayed flat.
John L said:Dennis, it looks nice. Only one problem I see with it. It only uses a 1CFM pump, which is far less than a 3 or 5.5 CFM pump.
From what I see, the Compact 100 is about $350, and a kit, using the Thomas 3.15 CFM pump would be about the same price.
Anyway, I'm still looking. Thanks for the info. I appreciate ALL suggestions.
John,
The only reason I personally wouldn't mind a higher cfm is to evacuate the bag faster for the initial pressup. But even with my 4x8' bag the 100 pump still has full vacuum in about 5 minutes. Given how slow I seem to be at aligning everything in the bag and getting any wrinkles in the bag out, the slower evacuation works well for me.
Regards,
Dennis
Thanks guys. I already have a compressor, which I use every day. It's a 20 gal tank and 2HP motor, is about 27 years old, but is running with Moble 1 synthetic oil, so it will probably run forever. Oh, and it is running on 240 volts as well.
My only problem with the venturi system is that it is not able to be carried anywhere unless the compressor goes with it. Both systems appear to be equal in costs, so I am leaning more to the vacuum pump, because it is more versatile, I think.
Anyway, I am going to make the move soon. That 68 cornice contract is a great excuse for me to add on to my tool inventory.
My only problem with the venturi system is that it is not able to be carried anywhere unless the compressor goes with it. Both systems appear to be equal in costs, so I am leaning more to the vacuum pump, because it is more versatile, I think.
Anyway, I am going to make the move soon. That 68 cornice contract is a great excuse for me to add on to my tool inventory.
riff.ca said:
Hi,
You work in a plywood factory? Cool.
riff.ca said:
Paper backed veneer comes in many thicknesses. The ones I use from Cedan is very thick, thicker than the face veneer layer on cabinet grade plywood.
Fools most people into thinking it's wood.
Sizes go right up to 4' x 10'. Paper is made from wood, so they are fairly compatible, don't you think?
Also available are ready made sheets of phenolic (P-lam) backed veneer - could save you some trouble, rather than doing it yourself.
John L said:Thanks guys. I already have a compressor, which I use every day. It's a 20 gal tank and 2HP motor, is about 27 years old, but is running with Moble 1 synthetic oil, so it will probably run forever. Oh, and it is running on 240 volts as well.
My only problem with the venturi system is that it is not able to be carried anywhere unless the compressor goes with it. Both systems appear to be equal in costs, so I am leaning more to the vacuum pump, because it is more versatile, I think.
Anyway, I am going to make the move soon. That 68 cornice contract is a great excuse for me to add on to my tool inventory.
20gl. Tank is not going to be enough. I’ve tried venturing with my 80gl 3hp 3ph and it was scarcely enough. It’s not only the tank that makes the difference; it’s also CFM of the pump (air compressor I mean). In order to avoid thermal overload you need a vacuum shut off switch. I only came across this problem at my friends shop then he was running a fancy vacuum set up and the pump was incased in a cute red sheet metal. As we took it apart, it was same Gast pump as I have. Mine never overheated and I run it continuously.
My other friend has rotary screw compressor and a huge tank, so he laughs at me then he cranks ventury open.
You usually run it continuously if you have more then one bag hooked up and there are minor vacuum losses from connectors or small punctures in the bags.
Longevity wise, I don’t know how good Thomas pumps are. I’ve had Gast for the last 10 years and not a single problem with it.
http://www.drillspot.com/products/35791/Gast_0523-101Q-G582DX_Vacuum_Pump
You could find it from commercial supplier new for $325.
They surface on ebay from time to time. If you see this model and it needs re-building, kit cost $120.
I also found folks at quality vacuum products, most helpful. The only thing I don’t like in their line is the vacuum hose. After a while, it collapses and slows down the pump. Braided vacuum hose is a better solution but you could always upgrade as you go alone.
John, I though we’ve made piece and you going to refrain from personal attacks?
Anyways, paper backed veneer is a good solution for DIY or a small shop that doesn’t want to get involved in more complicated work. Just like, as if you would purchase a DIY speaker kit paperback gives you some options but not quite as many. I personally hear of 4 or 5 problems with paperback a year and it usually has to do with applications but veneers like Olive Ash Burl or Carpathian Elm Burl aren’t exactly stable on the paperback either. It’s like anything else, has its advantages and disadvantages. For guys that learn to press raw, its kind off useless and more $$$.
R-Carpenter said:
Roman, are you talking to me, or the other John that (above) called me an a$$hole? I haven't made any personal attacks, just observations.
IMO paper backed veneer is a good solution for any size shop, small or large. Many of the large production millwork companies (on this side of the border anyway) would not even consider raw veneer.
The attached pic is from a recent project where thousands of square feet of quarter-sliced birch, paper backed veneer was used for an enormous "canoe" that concealed the mechanical/electrical that ran down the centre of the build.
The veneer was applied with sprayed contact cement.
Yeah, I know this is not fine furniture, but neither are some of the speakers that are built here.
I know everyone wants to do better, but doing better doesn't mean you should only use raw veneer and a vacuum press, other methods and materials give results that are just as good, if not better.
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