The impact of a bass sounds also depends on how much distortion the speaker creates. More distortion creates more impact.
For accurate bass at high spl, you need lots of linear volume displacement.
The isobaric configuration seems like an expensive way (you need 2 speakers and only have the volume displacement of 1) to achieve this.
To me a large speaker in a small box with Linkwitz correction seems like a more cost effective way to get what you need.
For accurate bass at high spl, you need lots of linear volume displacement.
The isobaric configuration seems like an expensive way (you need 2 speakers and only have the volume displacement of 1) to achieve this.
To me a large speaker in a small box with Linkwitz correction seems like a more cost effective way to get what you need.
I'd vote for large midbass horns. A pro 12/15" in an FLH...70-300hz would probably get you great snap and impact.
That's my current plan anyway, I'm up-sizing my subs to even larger tapped horns, and I'm planning on re-purposing my existing 12s (if it turns out that I can) into some sort of kick bins.
That's my current plan anyway, I'm up-sizing my subs to even larger tapped horns, and I'm planning on re-purposing my existing 12s (if it turns out that I can) into some sort of kick bins.
Hi, is it manageable in a current living room ? What is the size of a front loaded horn with such frequencies please ? Any 12" ref in mind ?
Anybody listened a mid-bass without treble drivers and heard a difference when the highs was not playing : the impact is missing ! The impacts can be tuned with trebles but I don't know how... It seems impacts needs 7 and more harmonics...
Anybody listened a mid-bass without treble drivers and heard a difference when the highs was not playing : the impact is missing ! The impacts can be tuned with trebles but I don't know how... It seems impacts needs 7 and more harmonics...
Hi guys!
As stated in several posts best impact comes with large boxes. good midrange integration and a lot of power.
This thread started by asking about impact with 6.5-8" midbass drivers.
Take some time to re-read Allison's papers here:
Technical Articles by Roy F. Allison | The Classic Speaker Pages
And consider a design where instead of a prism shaped box to get the woofers positioned close to the wall/floor junction a PPSL is used. The box would be a standard rectangle tower shaped with the box as slim as the manifold which is as small as possible. This would allow the woofers to be positioned 18mm from both the floor and wall providing good room integration and midbass unaffected by floor and wall bounce cancelations eliminating the 150+- hz dip that hurts impact.
The already well stated benefits of PPSL will aid in the quest for good bass impact.
This will be a three way design with the midrange crossing just below the point where the manifold low passes. Hopefully 300-400hz just where Allison shows a dip.
As stated in several posts best impact comes with large boxes. good midrange integration and a lot of power.
This thread started by asking about impact with 6.5-8" midbass drivers.
Take some time to re-read Allison's papers here:
Technical Articles by Roy F. Allison | The Classic Speaker Pages
And consider a design where instead of a prism shaped box to get the woofers positioned close to the wall/floor junction a PPSL is used. The box would be a standard rectangle tower shaped with the box as slim as the manifold which is as small as possible. This would allow the woofers to be positioned 18mm from both the floor and wall providing good room integration and midbass unaffected by floor and wall bounce cancelations eliminating the 150+- hz dip that hurts impact.
The already well stated benefits of PPSL will aid in the quest for good bass impact.
This will be a three way design with the midrange crossing just below the point where the manifold low passes. Hopefully 300-400hz just where Allison shows a dip.
WHere is the bass impact ? Which frequency ? After the 3 first octaves ?
Is an impact is a an hearable effect of something which start fast and stop fast which mean for all the seven octaves involved : few mms movement for transcient, a low Qts ?
One thing who always surprIsed me is you can have impact with a 5" beginning at 125-150 hz to 2500 HZ with just a sealed cabinet with a smal 8 " ! Vented is meaning less cone movement and distorsion but is not giving necercairly always good impact (depend more od the cabinet tunning ?) .
Do wee need a standalone mid bass near the frequencies range DrDyna fellow gave just above ? or is it more a question of design ?
Sorry to incist with trebles : my speakers are tri-cabled : when disconnecting the treble : impacts diseaper ! Which let me believe around 7 or 8 octaves are needed to speak of impact if we share the same definition of the word : something dry and tight which is not the attribute of the two or three first octaves ?
I always read Hiraga who heard thousand and thousand speakers between Europe, Japan says something near that : "to have big bass impact it's a problem of treble and vice versa : if the treble is too bad : tune the bass and mid-bass ?)". But I read when saying a 800d with one 15" bass has more impact than a 801 with two 10" !
Is an impact is a an hearable effect of something which start fast and stop fast which mean for all the seven octaves involved : few mms movement for transcient, a low Qts ?
One thing who always surprIsed me is you can have impact with a 5" beginning at 125-150 hz to 2500 HZ with just a sealed cabinet with a smal 8 " ! Vented is meaning less cone movement and distorsion but is not giving necercairly always good impact (depend more od the cabinet tunning ?) .
Do wee need a standalone mid bass near the frequencies range DrDyna fellow gave just above ? or is it more a question of design ?
Sorry to incist with trebles : my speakers are tri-cabled : when disconnecting the treble : impacts diseaper ! Which let me believe around 7 or 8 octaves are needed to speak of impact if we share the same definition of the word : something dry and tight which is not the attribute of the two or three first octaves ?
I always read Hiraga who heard thousand and thousand speakers between Europe, Japan says something near that : "to have big bass impact it's a problem of treble and vice versa : if the treble is too bad : tune the bass and mid-bass ?)". But I read when saying a 800d with one 15" bass has more impact than a 801 with two 10" !
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Yeah, the definition of the term could be what causes the most confusion. When I think about impact, I think of it like...when I'm just sitting here listening to music in the garage, which consists of an old receiver, a pair of Peavey PR-10s, and a couple of old passive subs, there's not a lot of impact. However, when I stand up and get closer to the front of one of the speakers (a distance difference of around 2 feet), suddenly I start experiencing a visceral midbass-ish "immediacy" ..and even though I haven't turned the volume any higher, it physically feels more powerful, and not just because of an SPL/distance relationship. It feels like the less air that's between you and the driver (in my case a 10" pro driver) the easier time it has manipulating it quickly in those areas of music where lots of "snappy" things happen, like snare hits and the initial snap of a kicked bass drum are now quick.
It's kinda like the difference between having a water balloon that weighs 1 kg thrown at your chest and a brick that weighs 1 kg. While they both weigh the same.
So, for me, when I'm thinking about how to extend that effect to a whole room, I can't imagine a way to do it, except lots and lots of driver diaphragm area, with extreme efficiency. The more air that can be grabbed, manipulated at the desired frequency, then released quickly, I would think is what really makes impact manifest itself.
In the upper frequencies, the only thing I can imagine playing a role would be ear / brain cues, where notes can happen very quickly that "prepare" the brain, so it's easier for it to be fooled.
Or, this could all be crap and I fail to understand how things work.
EDIT: Here, try this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t7wQ2BLBUg
Listen at normal position, then get up and stand in front of your speaker. Now, how do we get that when we're 10+ feet away from a speaker? LOTS of power in the midbass / kick.
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Is this not because there are always some high and low pressure zones in the bass and mi-range between the speakers and the listening position : maybe your seat is int a low pressure aera and when your are near your speaker you are in high one (not speaking about the db because you avoided it in the thinking) ?
What do you experiment if you carefully go back or front with your seat by 30 cm steps or from the position near the speakers to the listening position ? Are there not + and - impact zone or some slighty more loudy ?
Note than I have not a clue of sound physic domain. Read that somewhere in a french book!
What do you experiment if you carefully go back or front with your seat by 30 cm steps or from the position near the speakers to the listening position ? Are there not + and - impact zone or some slighty more loudy ?
Note than I have not a clue of sound physic domain. Read that somewhere in a french book!
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Why bass impact is connected to the integration of treble band?... If your speakers transient response in not perfect (or at least close to it) -which depends on lots of things, such as moving mass of the drivers, crossover phase and group delay times, acoustically aligned radiating centers, etc. etc.- then it will not be able "reconstruct" the Fourier line necessary for transient reproduction and impact (all impulse type signals are created by successively increasing frequency sine waves).
So if your highest frequency components are misaligned -due to crossover phase problem, or physical offset, or poor quality drivers-, you will NEVER be able to hear the impact and slam of the original signal, also largely loose the spatial reconstruction abilities. Regardles of how much power you pump into your any kind of woofer(s) in any type of enclosure.....
So if your highest frequency components are misaligned -due to crossover phase problem, or physical offset, or poor quality drivers-, you will NEVER be able to hear the impact and slam of the original signal, also largely loose the spatial reconstruction abilities. Regardles of how much power you pump into your any kind of woofer(s) in any type of enclosure.....
You are describing dynamic impact , which entails the full range as described. An 8 inch woofer with a in room response of -3dB at 28 will not sound the same as a 15 inch woofer with the same response , its sonic impact is different , very different.
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Just make sure it has been thinned a lot. I am not sure what the effect would be on soft dome tweeters, but I would not think it would be positive. It would change some of the properties of the dome itself. I doubt it will have the same effect on the metal dome.
15 inch woofer if all the upper well phased is better you mean for bass impact? I surmise it is !
Does the QTC and QTS of the drivers important ? DrDYNA seems saying there is something important with the pressure of air ! Does the air loading mass important (= big driver) in the low ? The second undersdtanding of it was : nearer was better because the room also !
Two way to understand it : if higers ranges needed (medium-treble) : beaming counts and listening position is important also. If just low frequencies it radiates almost 4Pi, listening position is less important ! What DrDyna listened when nearer to the speaker : more bass pression or more energy (SPL) in the high-mids also.
Is it easy for a designer to make a speaker with good impacts without loosing micro dettails with micro dynamic ?
Can we talk about bass impact, let say befor the two first octave ?
I'm only really talking about a distance difference of ~30 cm. The speaker I was talking about is sitting here close enough that I can touch it. Simply standing up and moving half a step forward changes it.
Honestly, I think it's just "air grip" The more air the driver can get into it's "bite" the more impact you'll have, so large midbass drivers / horns that can grab a lot of air at once and move it very easily will have an easier time conveying that "kick / speed".
It's the same idea used in pro-sound, a lot of times, you'll see a subwoofer, a kick / midbass, then tops. I'm sure they're not doing it just because the tops won't get down to 80hz.
Check out the Void Incubus system, or the Funktion one.
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nM1U2eQtpQ
"Bass Impact" is subjective. It will mean power to some, low end extension to others, low distortion to others, how it works with listening room acoustics to others. I'm a huge fan of closed box with active EQ (ahead of poweramp) myself. I get tight clean bass, extended to any frequency I want (whatever is practical for a given driver).
It seems like a big project to build an active crossover and EQ circuit into a chassis, and then you need another poweramp, but compared to the time it takes to get a passive crossover right, and a ported box tuned right, I've learned to think of it as no more difficult and a LOT better. Active electronics are very predictable, consistent, high order slopes (I always do 4 pole) and having a woofer be somewhat flat down to 30HZ with the good physical damping a closed box gives you, it just can't be beat.
The next woofer cabinet I build might be four 8 inch or 6 inch Peerless Nomex cone drivers per side, all in separate closed chambers, built as a tower so floor and ceiling bounce will be minimized, and it'll be driven with active EQ and a 4th order crossover such that it's acoustically flat to 30HZ, with a steep dropoff below that. Right now I've got the top of the line Peerless 12 inch woofers in sealed cube enclosures that are flat to 20HZ in my triamp'd system, and the Peerless 6 inch Nomex cone woofers in my soundbar project forced to be flat to 30HZ, and they sound awesum to me. Several smaller woofers sound better to my ear than one large woofer. Maybe because of conducted cone resonances, or maybe because of how they interact with room acoustics. If you want very high listening levels, I'd go with 12 inch drivers. Past a certain point of expense, it's more about how they interact with room acoustics.
It seems like a big project to build an active crossover and EQ circuit into a chassis, and then you need another poweramp, but compared to the time it takes to get a passive crossover right, and a ported box tuned right, I've learned to think of it as no more difficult and a LOT better. Active electronics are very predictable, consistent, high order slopes (I always do 4 pole) and having a woofer be somewhat flat down to 30HZ with the good physical damping a closed box gives you, it just can't be beat.
The next woofer cabinet I build might be four 8 inch or 6 inch Peerless Nomex cone drivers per side, all in separate closed chambers, built as a tower so floor and ceiling bounce will be minimized, and it'll be driven with active EQ and a 4th order crossover such that it's acoustically flat to 30HZ, with a steep dropoff below that. Right now I've got the top of the line Peerless 12 inch woofers in sealed cube enclosures that are flat to 20HZ in my triamp'd system, and the Peerless 6 inch Nomex cone woofers in my soundbar project forced to be flat to 30HZ, and they sound awesum to me. Several smaller woofers sound better to my ear than one large woofer. Maybe because of conducted cone resonances, or maybe because of how they interact with room acoustics. If you want very high listening levels, I'd go with 12 inch drivers. Past a certain point of expense, it's more about how they interact with room acoustics.
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