Melon Head, little or none of my frustrations come from you. Your trying and being reasonable. There have been to many who do not have any organized electronic education but, they refuse to start with the Zen articles even. That stuff is great. Even the original F5 article is full of info in the begining. You can't even answer their questions sometimes because they won't understand? I saw some time back someone who said they read the F5 thread 3 times. That would take a month or more! They should have been reading something else but this is interactive. Some of these threads are so big you can't find something you know is there. They are getting filled with bickering, yes, I'm bickering too. 
It is amazing how much info are in these articles espescially if you think deeper about what is being said.
I am not sure if it is intentional or not but the way Nelson wirtes is very clever. Nelson actually explains a lot more than you think but it is not always obvious. Often things have more than one meaning.
It seems like when ever I re-read one of Nelsons articles I pick up something else I did not see before.
I can understand the frustrations of the more knowledgeable here answering questions for those that dont have the knowledge. I can also see how this is compounded by those who wont read at all and want a hand out how to instruction.
Having said that, I've read the F-5 article and manual numerous times and only recently is it ever so slightly beginning to make sense. I ask questions many times and have always gotten responses that got me on the right track.
Even the articles are above many who read here.
Its been almost a year since my fireup of the F-5, and the
f-5 article went right over my head at the time of building. Now, after reading a bizzillion Pass forum posts and asking many, many questions,
it is starting to make sense. In many ways its very similar to tubes, which is all I worked with previously, and am far from an expert there to say the least.
Everyone has to learn for the first time. Even the most knowledgeable at one time new nothing. It had to be learned. It had to be taught, or at least led to the information. My problem is, I need help even with the info right in front of my face. The F-5 was a reletively easy build, but I still had trouble.
Physically and electrically it was correct right out of the shoot, but may lack of understanding on something as simple as biasing was lacking. I had about 500mV on the offset measurement and I thought the amp was ruined! Then I noticed, (with the help of many here) that some times it was positive, sometimes negative, then I noticed how the amp's board had a postive side and a negative side and a small piece clicked. It was a simple matter of twiddling the appropriate pot to 0 them. I know this is the most basic of operations, but that was the level of my understanding.
I have had Aleph boards for some time, and I think I am just beginning to get to the point where it might be possible, but not quite yet. I have searched up all the threads Aleph wise and tried to read them. Not quite yet.......
Now the balanced or X F-5....I really want to build one, but this is the most confusing thing for me, and the opinions have been back and forth. Sometimes I ask a question because the answer to it will help resolve my understanding of something larger, and the particular answer will serve to back up, or prove false the assumption I'm having.
I know its frustrating, but it is also much appreciated from one trying to learn this stuff. No. I'm not an electronics person in the work field. so its a hobby only, but I am trying here folks.
Many have helped here and its appreciated. I guess the complaining and arguing is part of it as well.
Thanks for the help folk,
Russellc
Having said that, I've read the F-5 article and manual numerous times and only recently is it ever so slightly beginning to make sense. I ask questions many times and have always gotten responses that got me on the right track.
Even the articles are above many who read here.
Its been almost a year since my fireup of the F-5, and the
f-5 article went right over my head at the time of building. Now, after reading a bizzillion Pass forum posts and asking many, many questions,
it is starting to make sense. In many ways its very similar to tubes, which is all I worked with previously, and am far from an expert there to say the least.
Everyone has to learn for the first time. Even the most knowledgeable at one time new nothing. It had to be learned. It had to be taught, or at least led to the information. My problem is, I need help even with the info right in front of my face. The F-5 was a reletively easy build, but I still had trouble.
Physically and electrically it was correct right out of the shoot, but may lack of understanding on something as simple as biasing was lacking. I had about 500mV on the offset measurement and I thought the amp was ruined! Then I noticed, (with the help of many here) that some times it was positive, sometimes negative, then I noticed how the amp's board had a postive side and a negative side and a small piece clicked. It was a simple matter of twiddling the appropriate pot to 0 them. I know this is the most basic of operations, but that was the level of my understanding.
I have had Aleph boards for some time, and I think I am just beginning to get to the point where it might be possible, but not quite yet. I have searched up all the threads Aleph wise and tried to read them. Not quite yet.......
Now the balanced or X F-5....I really want to build one, but this is the most confusing thing for me, and the opinions have been back and forth. Sometimes I ask a question because the answer to it will help resolve my understanding of something larger, and the particular answer will serve to back up, or prove false the assumption I'm having.
I know its frustrating, but it is also much appreciated from one trying to learn this stuff. No. I'm not an electronics person in the work field. so its a hobby only, but I am trying here folks.
Many have helped here and its appreciated. I guess the complaining and arguing is part of it as well.
Thanks for the help folk,
Russellc
Whether you like balanced amps in general or single ended is a matter of taste. The same applies to Aleph and Aleph-X. One can simplify this, sort of black & white, to listening to even&odd harmonics, or odd harmonics only. If anything, you can read NP's white paper on his XA earlier series.
Patrick
Patrick
an old lady once correected me when I said, "you learn from your mistakes!"
she said, "you might get wiser and learn from your mistakes, but not rich!"
that said, better ask first, and not 'shoot' first
the tricky could be one, "I bought this, how...?"
sure, some things we better learn by ourselves
but noone should ever be afraid of asking questions
anyone should be free to ask questions, and not be intimidated
but then there's the other one, "you may ask, but may not like the answer!"
'give and take' goes both ways
but hey, the world aint perfect
best we can do is try be polite
and post with some respect
then I think much of it goes by itself
and when not, then we have our rules
may sound boring
but my job is best when boring
I was told that from day one
well, I think we have enough of this for now
she said, "you might get wiser and learn from your mistakes, but not rich!"
that said, better ask first, and not 'shoot' first
the tricky could be one, "I bought this, how...?"
sure, some things we better learn by ourselves
but noone should ever be afraid of asking questions
anyone should be free to ask questions, and not be intimidated
but then there's the other one, "you may ask, but may not like the answer!"
'give and take' goes both ways
but hey, the world aint perfect
best we can do is try be polite
and post with some respect
then I think much of it goes by itself
and when not, then we have our rules
may sound boring
but my job is best when boring
I was told that from day one
well, I think we have enough of this for now
Russel has chastised me for my attitude in this Forum (my intolerance of any DIYer who refuses to invest time in his/her chosen hobby). That's not quite the way Russel puts it and I don't like the implication that comes over in his rebukes.
But within a few posts the "attitude" of Members, not just newbies, not just the youngsters, not just any other brush you want to tar this group with, but that group who come here and "expect" everything on that "silver platter" mentioned earlier. In return they give nothing, worse, they think that behaviour is acceptable and normal.
I do not expect thanks, but it's nice when it comes along, I do enjoy hearing that a Member has "learned" something that I had a hand in guiding.
I will not and never intend to, tolerate the lazy b....ds who refuse to even read about their hobby. Yes that is the respect I think they deserve.
It's not about questions, nor how many are posted, it's the attitude that comes across.
But within a few posts the "attitude" of Members, not just newbies, not just the youngsters, not just any other brush you want to tar this group with, but that group who come here and "expect" everything on that "silver platter" mentioned earlier. In return they give nothing, worse, they think that behaviour is acceptable and normal.
I do not expect thanks, but it's nice when it comes along, I do enjoy hearing that a Member has "learned" something that I had a hand in guiding.
I will not and never intend to, tolerate the lazy b....ds who refuse to even read about their hobby. Yes that is the respect I think they deserve.
It's not about questions, nor how many are posted, it's the attitude that comes across.
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AndrewT, thanks! Many thanks! I have learned things from you. You are all over this forum in many disciplines with quite concise answers and wisdom. Like me, you might not be the smoothest, and coolest, but you are no doubt someone to respect. I obviously agree with you on the last post but, maybe it's just a little like the middle east right now? and the weather? and the Volcano's and Earthquakes. What the H#$% is going on in the world? Ooops, can't do plitics here...
Sorry Andrew, I was just frustrated at the time. I dont have anywhere near the Electronic knowledge you do, and appreciate the answers and post you make. I just dont like argument, and it seemed at the time what I saw. This isnt what this is about, it should be sharing info and when the answer "isnt what you want" it can at least led to aplace you can find it. Just gets frustrating sometimes, and it seemed like many, myself included were gettinga little hot. Sorry to have offended.
Russellc
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Yes you are right, it does. I plowed through it before my build, and its gotten considerably larger since. Really popular amp build to say the least.
I also found the Peter Daniels and Cviller group board-buy threads very informational, and considerably smaller too!
I read and re read the Pass articles, and only recently have they begun to sink in, and only in a limited fashion. On the positve side, it seems to be increaseing a little faster the more that does absorb.
Russellc
Osmosis is ussually a slow process
about a year, or so
I'm still pleased just to think about how nice it will be
well, its about money as well
buying it bit by bit doesnt hurt so much
sometimes you are not happy with the available parts
but maybe there are better opportunities later
and maybe even different info of value
and thats how it usually goes
besides, its also about enjoying the ride, so why hurry
I've been thinking about Bob Cordell's book, any recomendations, considering the level I'm at now? (not very high)
Russellc
There are a few around. The good thing is that you can read some of them on the inet. Just google "audio amplifier design". I would start with getting a copy of the Art of Electronics (Horowitz & Hill) and read chapter 1-7 again and again and again. It is not audio stuff, but it has all the basics you need first.
Then you might want to read a audio specific book. Lindsley Hood is a collection of circuits without explanation, so somewhat difficult for beginners. Douglas Self is quite detailed, but he does not like FETs. Sloan I have not read, but I think if you like Nelson's Designs, Cordell is a good read. On top you should read the Zen articles from the start (ZV1-9). Forget the amp building for a while and just concentrate on how the active device is being used. Try to figure out how the values of resistors, etc. are arrived at yourself, before posting and ask the few that you cannot figure out. Many here will help you, Nelson for sure, to understand. It is the understanding part that is important.
I guess ZM and others might have other recommendations. There are also a few threads on the forum about books. Just search.
Welcome to the wonderful world of audio circuitry design. The building is actually the boring part.
Patrick
Then you might want to read a audio specific book. Lindsley Hood is a collection of circuits without explanation, so somewhat difficult for beginners. Douglas Self is quite detailed, but he does not like FETs. Sloan I have not read, but I think if you like Nelson's Designs, Cordell is a good read. On top you should read the Zen articles from the start (ZV1-9). Forget the amp building for a while and just concentrate on how the active device is being used. Try to figure out how the values of resistors, etc. are arrived at yourself, before posting and ask the few that you cannot figure out. Many here will help you, Nelson for sure, to understand. It is the understanding part that is important.
I guess ZM and others might have other recommendations. There are also a few threads on the forum about books. Just search.
Welcome to the wonderful world of audio circuitry design. The building is actually the boring part.
Patrick
I have visited Borbely site many times
and now it says 'Borbeleyaudio.com is unavailable'
I suppose he is getting quite old by now
maybe its just hard to keep his 'aged designs' alive, in these modern times
by 'aged' I just mean they were designed some time ago
and that there's not much new stuff
it looked like 'they' tried hard a few years ago, with simpler kits
is that the end of it ?
and now it says 'Borbeleyaudio.com is unavailable'
I suppose he is getting quite old by now
maybe its just hard to keep his 'aged designs' alive, in these modern times
by 'aged' I just mean they were designed some time ago
and that there's not much new stuff
it looked like 'they' tried hard a few years ago, with simpler kits
is that the end of it ?
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