Fwiw, I've owned earlier models of Kef and B&W (801), as well as Infinity's, which I still have - residing in a closet. The Infinity's have a lovely open mid / treble and image very well but those planar drivers lack the dynamics of the best mc domes and cones, and like most 4-way speakers they're not quite as coherent as a good 3-way. I actually replaced the EMIT tweeters with Raal pure ribbons and revamped the crossovers, which really made them sing, but as good as they are they're still not quite as good overall as B&W 800's. B&W really managed to nail the bass alignment with the 800's and coupled with the high mass / resonant-free enclosure the bass is about as good as it gets for a mid sized speaker. The diamond dome tweeter is perhaps as much about marketing as anything else but it's a very fine tweeter nonetheless; incredibly resolving and audibly very clean, and the FST mid which is often maligned is actually one of the best mid cone drivers going around.
I definitely agree with your comments re value. The price of high end gear has become stratospheric these days, so as expensive as they are, B&W 800 series represent excellent VFM.
Limono...you can't hear pass 12khz are you kidding me? It would be like me saying to a famous painter the colors he used for his work suck and then say....just so you know...I am color blind and btw I also like cheap motel art!!!
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It doesn't matter if you are 60-80-20 or 30...you can't simply be stating something very incorrect and then pretending to ignore the problem and people who are pointing something that led you to the wrong conclusion only because you say you are old and don't need to change opinion for that! That is simply pure cliché!!!!
Here I am imagining that limono is a guy with excellent taste for audio with sublime audio gear and that can hear every single note and detect differences from cable to cable, while I am rather arguing with an opinionated person who is completely the opposite of what I thought!!! This is what I call a waste of my time!!! 😡
I'm terribly sorry I wasted your time. I don't find any of my statements incoherent and especially incorrect. It really doesn't matter what kind of boxes I'm using at the moment does it? Even a cleaning lady can here differences in the cables, it's a kindergarten. While spending $3-5K on used pair of a few years old B&W series 800 speakers is a decent deal for a nice pair of boxes to make wife happy and friends easily impressed they don't offer much more IMHO .Do you think just because others make even worse sounding speakers for much more makes B&W somewhat better than they are? I will not not bash the company (there are many others who do) because it is successfully providing what current market wants (boom and tizzz) and employs very good graphic/industrial design team. They offer solidly made product which offers decent compromise between cost and performance but I would not personally use it nor recommend it to somebody who is serious about music.
And PHLEASE , I was born in EU too ... and I'm familiar with attitudes of folks who just moved from moped to first car and look down on everybody from their new elevated place. Since you're also familiar with US reality you must know that acquiring boxes cheaply is not a big problem here.
I paid more for TAD beryllium tweeters than my friend for a pair of his B&W Nautilus 802 speakers, such luck.....
Have a nice day a please return to your thread of perfecting B&W signature 800.
I wonder why in the world you would pay 3-5k for a tweeter if you only hear up to a limited 12KHz!?!! Besides what tweeter costs 3-4k???
You have not mentioned you have a TAD speakers which I like very much and feel they are sound wise very comparable to my B&W which would then make me question about your bashing!
If you want to buy a speaker like mine you can get wonderful deals now here and there but still for a pair in perfect condition you will pay 10-12k for there which is a great bargain!! I have acquired mine a while ago so didn't have so much luck but like any other thing you buy it when it comes out you pay more!
Beside this, if you say nautilus series is all boom and tizz I don't think you have understood how it sounds.
Look, I live 1 and 1/2hour from chicago you are invited to my place so you can hear for yourself.
I personally don't really get your comment about moving from UE to US but that's ok...lets just put ur on a side!
You have not mentioned you have a TAD speakers which I like very much and feel they are sound wise very comparable to my B&W which would then make me question about your bashing!
If you want to buy a speaker like mine you can get wonderful deals now here and there but still for a pair in perfect condition you will pay 10-12k for there which is a great bargain!! I have acquired mine a while ago so didn't have so much luck but like any other thing you buy it when it comes out you pay more!
Beside this, if you say nautilus series is all boom and tizz I don't think you have understood how it sounds.
Look, I live 1 and 1/2hour from chicago you are invited to my place so you can hear for yourself.
I personally don't really get your comment about moving from UE to US but that's ok...lets just put ur on a side!
No indeed not, I haven't listened to either (would like to we need a hifi show to come to us again), but from the measurements I would not expect them to sound alike. TAD go for integrating their coaxial drive units correctly at appropriate frequencies, resulting in flat frequency responses on axis with a smooth off axis transitioning into constant directivity within the tweeters pass band. This is nothing remotely like how B&W approach their design and even though the signature loudspeaker does better in the xover department compared to the other 800 series speakers it's still heavily flawed.
Stefanoo there is nothing wrong with having hearing that only extends up to 12kHz. There is very very little information up in the top octave (10-20kHz) anyway and the brain is extremely efficient in compensating for the gradual loss of high frequencies, due to ageing, such that you do not even really notice.
With regards to the quality of B&Ws tweeters, they are admirable performers with low distortion. The diamond dome especially has pretty much the perfect dome material for high frequency reproduction. The dome remaining purely pistonic up until around 100kHz which keeps any induced distortion peaks outside of what humans can actually hear.
The FST, as has been mentioned before, is one of the best midrange drivers in the world on objective performance alone and their bass drivers are capable. If you do not like the way a B&W pair of loudspeakers sounds it is undoubtedly because of the poor crossover design and nothing else. Their cabinetry is also excellent, both in terms of construction and functional design.
I kindly disagree with you. They have very similar way of proposing soundstage and Both work on the neutral side, despite what has been said here on b&w that has a peak at a certain frequency is the end if the world, what I have learned at the seminary on acoustic, is that if you have the frequency response within +/-6dB you have an excellent room. Nonetheless we argue for 1-2dB peak and consider it being the end of the world, when compared to the average room response there can be up to 10dB deviation across the band
Magico speakers are technically flat but they do sound like crap.
Not sure what to say, I have listened to many speakers at the show some being very interesting some being terrible and some being ok...and I have only paid attention to speaker at the high hierarchy end of the price spectrum.
All I can say is that even speakers I found formidable carried pretty much all the same amount of information,same precise soundstage, full range response and fairly neutral and believable and b&w 800 would be no exception thus playing at the same level of performance of these big boys but yet at half of the price of these "competitors" at least.
What distinguishes all these formidable speakers IMHO is the way of presenting the sound,which leaves room for personal preferences.
If B&W's drivers are exceptionally good, cabinet is exceptionally good, idea of pod for tweeter and separate head for midrange is exceptionally good...man this designer has nailed down 90% of an exceptional design at least....and I wonder if he was a genius or a lucky little boy and then so bluntly missed which is definitely not the hardest part of the speaker i.e. He crossover.
In the end if the crossover can be improved so be it and like I said I have no problem accepting that...but in many years the nautilus series has been a reference for many people and companies have started to copy their curved shapes years later...while before we would pretty much assist at real shoe boxes...I still feel that the ingenious designer who had a vision many years before others of how to design proper divers and enclosure still deserves some credit
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And here is the essence of my thinking....comes directly from a designer that seem to be very highly regarded....
"Nowadays Jones measures prototypes to see where he's going, and also listens to them. Listening is key, because as he put it, "Measurement tools are now available to very rapidly give the wrong answer." Interpreting what measurements mean, and how to proceed is a skill and an art that takes years to cultivate. If a revised prototype doesn't sound right, Jones first questions the data. The back and forth between taking measurements and listening sessions is, in essence, the design process"
Interesting enough that if it doesn't sound good first thing he questions is technical interpretation and not the other way around i.e.if it measures in a certain way I don't even need to listen to it but if it measures good although it appears to not sound good who cares it must be your wrong post-processing of the sound because obviously the flat frequency response equals perfect sound!
"Nowadays Jones measures prototypes to see where he's going, and also listens to them. Listening is key, because as he put it, "Measurement tools are now available to very rapidly give the wrong answer." Interpreting what measurements mean, and how to proceed is a skill and an art that takes years to cultivate. If a revised prototype doesn't sound right, Jones first questions the data. The back and forth between taking measurements and listening sessions is, in essence, the design process"
Interesting enough that if it doesn't sound good first thing he questions is technical interpretation and not the other way around i.e.if it measures in a certain way I don't even need to listen to it but if it measures good although it appears to not sound good who cares it must be your wrong post-processing of the sound because obviously the flat frequency response equals perfect sound!
Well yes , I spent almost $3k on TAD ET-703 tweeter to cross it at 15Khz to TAD TD2002....tweeter. If you have a cheaper source probably a few people here might be interested. I had TAD 4001 before but I could not get it to sound good so I got JBL with beryllium diaphragm..tweeter to cross it to that aforementioned earlier tweeters. Poor skill set on my part to make a working horn speaker. Who said audio people are rational ..Besides I'm not an engineer and therefore I must throw money on the project to compensate . My friend bought his Nautilus 802 for $2.8k...he also bought Mcintosh amps and Rolex watch since they tend to hold the value and he is concerned with that.
TAD consumer full range/coaxial line is a disaster to listen . Yes , I'm fully aware that technically speaking we manufacture perfect drivers , also perfect amps from late 80's up to the present.
My remark to US market was that with constant Merry Goes Round consumer habits of American society it is possible to acquire almost anything for quite reasonable price and sometimes for bargain prices if one is patient. Most of it is not very interesting but with years one gains an exposure especially if there is a circle of people interested in the subject and High End dealers among them.
Have a good night, gents
TAD consumer full range/coaxial line is a disaster to listen . Yes , I'm fully aware that technically speaking we manufacture perfect drivers , also perfect amps from late 80's up to the present.
My remark to US market was that with constant Merry Goes Round consumer habits of American society it is possible to acquire almost anything for quite reasonable price and sometimes for bargain prices if one is patient. Most of it is not very interesting but with years one gains an exposure especially if there is a circle of people interested in the subject and High End dealers among them.
Have a good night, gents
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If you find something like this...
TAD Evolution One loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
That measures as well as that does, across the board, to be a disaster to listen to, then I think that shows you do not like listening to a neutral loudspeaker and in fact really enjoy listening to something that is inherently coloured.
TAD Evolution One loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
That measures as well as that does, across the board, to be a disaster to listen to, then I think that shows you do not like listening to a neutral loudspeaker and in fact really enjoy listening to something that is inherently coloured.
No doubt someone will ask why you would cross over at 15kHz, and not just because you can only hear up to 12kHz.
There are some interesting ridges of relayed energy in the treble though, which may well be audible to those of us who can still hear above 15kHz. As seems to be the case with many coaxial M/T's, the trade off is a loss of diffraction control.
Actually the coaxial arrangement controls diffraction and provides a directivity match between the midrange and coaxially mounted tweeter, transitioning into constant directivity above this. The wonky upper octave is due to throat reflections and irregularities between the cone edge/surround termination.
Upper octave irreularities are common in wave guide type designs and are not really audible providing the loudspeakers upper end is balanced correctly. Besides limono, who thinks they are an auditory disaster, can't hear that high.
Upper octave irreularities are common in wave guide type designs and are not really audible providing the loudspeakers upper end is balanced correctly. Besides limono, who thinks they are an auditory disaster, can't hear that high.
i have heard both TAD evo one and B&W 800 series, and i can assure you that they are very different 🙂
although it was on different system, but like 5th said, its clearly different from their measured response and polar response.
although it was on different system, but like 5th said, its clearly different from their measured response and polar response.
I heard the TAD's in Melbourne last year and agree that they didn't sound like my 800's but I would like to hear both speakers in the same listening room with the same ancillaries before passing judgement.
Fwiw, the TAD's sounded ok but nothing special, and the experience definitely didn't make me want to trade my 800's.
From Stereophile: With either amp, the Evolution Ones were more open in the treble and produced a wider soundstage than the similarly sized and priced Sony SS-AR1 ($27,000/pair), which I reviewed in the July 2011 issue, though the Sony's bass was even more impressive in size and power. Compared to my resident B&W 800 Diamond speakers ($24,000/pair), which I reviewed in May 2011, the TAD-E1s were a bit more reticent in the treble, and comparable in soundstage width and depth. The B&W's bass, in my room, was as extended as the E1's, but quite a bit less prominent. In general, the differences among the three speakers were immediately audible but not big, and in regard to soundstaging and bass, greatly influenced by my room and setup.
Fwiw, the TAD's sounded ok but nothing special, and the experience definitely didn't make me want to trade my 800's.
From Stereophile: With either amp, the Evolution Ones were more open in the treble and produced a wider soundstage than the similarly sized and priced Sony SS-AR1 ($27,000/pair), which I reviewed in the July 2011 issue, though the Sony's bass was even more impressive in size and power. Compared to my resident B&W 800 Diamond speakers ($24,000/pair), which I reviewed in May 2011, the TAD-E1s were a bit more reticent in the treble, and comparable in soundstage width and depth. The B&W's bass, in my room, was as extended as the E1's, but quite a bit less prominent. In general, the differences among the three speakers were immediately audible but not big, and in regard to soundstaging and bass, greatly influenced by my room and setup.
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Yes , I think that sums it pretty well and just leave it at that. I would take well sorted Tannoy Red DC over that TAD coaxial any day and cash the difference and wouldn't look back. At least we agree with Stefanoo that most big ticket speakers didn't sound good on the AXPONA show we both attended so there is some common denominator which suggest that I did not just arrive from another planet.. . I'm sure those speakers in careful sympathetic home installations sound much better and are on par with the rest of high-end offerings which include B&W.
I did like pretty conventional contemporary High-End speaker from less known German brand Kaiser Acoustics model Kawero so there is some hope for me ...Unfortunately it's pretty expensive as well at $70k for rather small footprint.
Stefanoo , thank you for an invitation . I'm always looking for opportunity to be enlightened. . We are searching for a new place to move in and everything is in disarray at home. For years I was planning to visit John K in WI who builds horn speakers so maybe in some summer weekend I could as well visit you and spend an afternoon with a glass of wine? That, if you're not mortally offended by now😉
A loudspeaker is only one part of a system. This point keeps coming up, but then we keep forgetting it!
Art, you have anticipated me!
Limono, why would you in your full mind spend 3K on a very nice tweeter that crosses and then operates way ABOVE your audible range???
Kudos to your friend, that for only 2.8K got a 802 at a steal price, I mean I don’t think I have seen it sold for that cheap before, so if it is in great condition too he got an amazing speaker that just few years back used to cost 5X its price point and that a new version which sounds IMHO worse still costs 5X more.
To 5th, I disagree with an earlier comment of yours that there is little information from 12kHz up. Of course more information is contained in the mid-range where voices are mainly detected on our brain for speech recognition and that’s the most efficient frequency range, but I would also like to add there are several instruments and information on the very high upper region and if you were to listen to a high end system and judge its full bandwidth operation/performance, you definitely need to have full hearing capabilities, otherwise just don't be so judgmental and especially on the part of the spectrum where you ears are less efficient in!