I agree of the elevated response above certain kHz making "detailed" sound. However, without knowing if corrections being made, which I know from studio compadres that's been done, assumptions in forums are fruitless...
I have a pair of near field Genelec's also... Great for dialogue.....
Btw, look at stereophile's measurements of BW 801, not bad. Except I would agree about the poor off axis performance. However, in a studio, where people are normally sitting on axis, what exactly would that affect performance in mixing???
The off axis response has a profound effect on the way a speaker sounds, presents itself and interacts with the room it is placed in. With speaker having uneven off axis responses far more critical of the room. This is one of the reasons I am sure that so many monitors use wave guides, to both give an even off axis response and to give a certain standard of performance, that can be relied upon, regardless of the environment
For what it's worth I use a modified FST midrange driver in my system, with the phase plug removed and tweeter installed coaxially. This wave guide loads the tweeter with the FST cone giving excellent off axis performance and directivity matches the tweeter to the FST. One of the speakers strengths is its speech intelligibility in movies. Heck overall clarity is amazing.
Man what I have to hear!!! People who are evaluating fine high-end audio equipment with cheapo home theater material and electronics.
I personally don't think many of you really understands how an 800series speaker sounds really!
These speakers are terribly sensitive to the material you feed in to and the electronics you drive them with. Usually home theater movie are not mastered for quality BUT ONLY for impact!!! This is NOT music by any means and you can't pretend that an object made to make music will not reveal you the lack of quality and flaws on that particular material
I invite you in two months to come listen to my place with the new top of the line series I am finalizing.
You will change your mind about B&W and get out of the door trying to purchase the same set of speakers!!! 😱😱
@eriksquires: you still haven't answered to my question: what is your setup!?
I want to know what you have from source down to speakers including your cables, room treatment etc..
You mentioned you have speakers that are 1000X better than B&W...to what specific B&W are you directly comparing these to?
5th we had plenty of discussion in the past. I haven't had a chance to listen to your developments and you might as well be right that your stuff is better, I don't know....but I am simply referring to commercial designs. I have auditioned a lot of brands!! From Revel, to Magico, Wilson, Raidho, Tidal, JBL etc...etc...etc....and I have to say at the price point the 800Signature were offered at (about 25k) back then, they are definitely a bargain!!
From what I could hear, only very few speakers get close to and actually surpass the all around performance of the Sig800....and they all happen to cost at least 4X more than B&W.
I don't understand why you are still obsessed with frequency response and graphs and all that.
Unfortunately I am not an expert on this subject and I have read other expert commenting your statements and other people's who had same opinion as yours with very valid and technical reasons as to why things were done that way.
So in the end, you have to listen extensively to judge that particular speakers. Now I can't remember if it was you (5th) or someone else who said that he never has listened to an 800 and doesn't need to since he just needs to know the graphs and therefore refuses to listen to it!
That is very presumptuous!!
I personally don't think many of you really understands how an 800series speaker sounds really!
These speakers are terribly sensitive to the material you feed in to and the electronics you drive them with. Usually home theater movie are not mastered for quality BUT ONLY for impact!!! This is NOT music by any means and you can't pretend that an object made to make music will not reveal you the lack of quality and flaws on that particular material
I invite you in two months to come listen to my place with the new top of the line series I am finalizing.
You will change your mind about B&W and get out of the door trying to purchase the same set of speakers!!! 😱😱
@eriksquires: you still haven't answered to my question: what is your setup!?
I want to know what you have from source down to speakers including your cables, room treatment etc..
You mentioned you have speakers that are 1000X better than B&W...to what specific B&W are you directly comparing these to?
5th we had plenty of discussion in the past. I haven't had a chance to listen to your developments and you might as well be right that your stuff is better, I don't know....but I am simply referring to commercial designs. I have auditioned a lot of brands!! From Revel, to Magico, Wilson, Raidho, Tidal, JBL etc...etc...etc....and I have to say at the price point the 800Signature were offered at (about 25k) back then, they are definitely a bargain!!
From what I could hear, only very few speakers get close to and actually surpass the all around performance of the Sig800....and they all happen to cost at least 4X more than B&W.
I don't understand why you are still obsessed with frequency response and graphs and all that.
Unfortunately I am not an expert on this subject and I have read other expert commenting your statements and other people's who had same opinion as yours with very valid and technical reasons as to why things were done that way.
So in the end, you have to listen extensively to judge that particular speakers. Now I can't remember if it was you (5th) or someone else who said that he never has listened to an 800 and doesn't need to since he just needs to know the graphs and therefore refuses to listen to it!
That is very presumptuous!!
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Stefanoo,
1 - It wasn't clear to me that you were speaking to me.
2 - You know what a troll is? 🙂 It's deliberate hyperbole designed to fish for the gullible, and here you appeared. 😀 What I do mean is that I've never heard a B&W speaker that I would even $1 for. Based on money spent, my speakers are nearly infinitely better than any B&W. I've listened to very expensive B&W setups by the way, including the original B&W nautilus driven by multiple stacks of Krell amplifiers. They had to wake me up at the end. Really sucked for me, I loved the ads and the looks. In the end it was like a Kardashian sex tape. BORING.
3 - There is very poor correlation between money spent and quality of results in high end audio. I'm happy to say I'm an audiophile, but I'm the so called "high-end" is nothing more than a fashion show put on by the cynical for the gullible. It happens here too.
4 - I don't work for you. Take your demanding requests and write them on the back of a hundred US dollar bill and mail them to me, then I'll consider replying to you.
5 - If you are interested in the quality of the sound reproduced by my monitors, see the discussion on Mundorf AMT and SS.
Regards,
Erik
1 - It wasn't clear to me that you were speaking to me.
2 - You know what a troll is? 🙂 It's deliberate hyperbole designed to fish for the gullible, and here you appeared. 😀 What I do mean is that I've never heard a B&W speaker that I would even $1 for. Based on money spent, my speakers are nearly infinitely better than any B&W. I've listened to very expensive B&W setups by the way, including the original B&W nautilus driven by multiple stacks of Krell amplifiers. They had to wake me up at the end. Really sucked for me, I loved the ads and the looks. In the end it was like a Kardashian sex tape. BORING.
3 - There is very poor correlation between money spent and quality of results in high end audio. I'm happy to say I'm an audiophile, but I'm the so called "high-end" is nothing more than a fashion show put on by the cynical for the gullible. It happens here too.
4 - I don't work for you. Take your demanding requests and write them on the back of a hundred US dollar bill and mail them to me, then I'll consider replying to you.
5 - If you are interested in the quality of the sound reproduced by my monitors, see the discussion on Mundorf AMT and SS.
Regards,
Erik
I should also say that though I would never spend money on B&W, I don't find them as objectionable as other brands. I wouldn't feel rushed to turn them off. Those other brands include:
- Golden Ear
- Thiel while Thiel was still alive
- Triangle
All of which sound like ear drills to me. B&W's at least I could comfortably sleep through. The latest Magico S1/Mk II was also a much more interesting to listen to speaker than any B&W. I got to hear those in the manufacturer's demo and test lab. Still, I would like them a lot more for $2k than $16k. My point is, I've been able to listen to very expensive set-ups in very good environments, I also get to hear live music on my way to work and stop to listen and pay for the privilege of the buskers. This is how I calibrate my own ears.
Another brand I'd pay money for before B&W is Wilson. Still overpriced say I, but much more interesting. I've also heard the Revel F6's which were more interesting, but like the Magico's, have their own timbral issues. I've been able to hear both with Ayre, Audio Research and Parasound equipment in very nicely tuned rooms.
On the opposite end, good sounding speakers that are more interesting and natural sounding than B&W are the defunct canadian brand Athena Technologies. sound and measure far better than their price points. Monitor Audio is another brand with much higher value and again, fun and interesting, but deliberately smile shaped FR.
I should also state it's not really important for anyone to agree with me or not. It's your money, if you want to spend it all on women and speakers and squander the rest like I do, that's fine. If you love B&W and it makes you happy you should never look for approval from an uneducated lout like me. I'm merely explaining what I've heard, what I like an don't like, but your ears and your eyes and your partner (think WAF) should rule your wallet, not me. Enjoy yourself.
Personally what I get most out of DIY is being able to make exactly the speaker I want. It's like making exactly the dish you want instead of going to a restaurant and getting 90% of what you wanted. That I am spending 1/20th what I would spend with a commercial speaker using the same components is a bonus.
Best,
Erik
- Golden Ear
- Thiel while Thiel was still alive
- Triangle
All of which sound like ear drills to me. B&W's at least I could comfortably sleep through. The latest Magico S1/Mk II was also a much more interesting to listen to speaker than any B&W. I got to hear those in the manufacturer's demo and test lab. Still, I would like them a lot more for $2k than $16k. My point is, I've been able to listen to very expensive set-ups in very good environments, I also get to hear live music on my way to work and stop to listen and pay for the privilege of the buskers. This is how I calibrate my own ears.
Another brand I'd pay money for before B&W is Wilson. Still overpriced say I, but much more interesting. I've also heard the Revel F6's which were more interesting, but like the Magico's, have their own timbral issues. I've been able to hear both with Ayre, Audio Research and Parasound equipment in very nicely tuned rooms.
On the opposite end, good sounding speakers that are more interesting and natural sounding than B&W are the defunct canadian brand Athena Technologies. sound and measure far better than their price points. Monitor Audio is another brand with much higher value and again, fun and interesting, but deliberately smile shaped FR.
I should also state it's not really important for anyone to agree with me or not. It's your money, if you want to spend it all on women and speakers and squander the rest like I do, that's fine. If you love B&W and it makes you happy you should never look for approval from an uneducated lout like me. I'm merely explaining what I've heard, what I like an don't like, but your ears and your eyes and your partner (think WAF) should rule your wallet, not me. Enjoy yourself.
Personally what I get most out of DIY is being able to make exactly the speaker I want. It's like making exactly the dish you want instead of going to a restaurant and getting 90% of what you wanted. That I am spending 1/20th what I would spend with a commercial speaker using the same components is a bonus.
Best,
Erik
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Of course it makes sense.
It's because you're not also using them in your listening studio.
Dear eriksquat...
I would not give you 100 dollars to answer stupid questions ur statement was absolutely out of this world!
The reason why you deliberately don't answer to my question about your setup is because you know exactly where I was getting at!
Beside this, there is s certain correlation between price and quality with serious manufacturer.
I could not make for you an amp that costs 10k that performs like an 100k power amp.
The reasoning that you listen to live music and therefore now your ear is calibrated can be easily proven wrong!
I know a lot of ppl who listen to live music, but they can't distinguish the qualities of a 5k power amp from a 30k for example!
Once more I am happy you are happy with what you build, and I don't know your background, but to build audio gear takes skill experience and proper instrumentation.
When it comes to speakers especially the tools are very expensive.
I seriously question less than well equipped engineers when it comes to build speakers.
But you might be as equipped as b&w and Wilson audio put together and have more experience than their best engineer...but if you test your equipment with cheapo home theater material and equipment then your speakers will be very likely just as good/bad as the stuff you use to develop them with!!
Also, it is absolutely the first time I hear somebody commenting that nautilus speaker put you to sleep! If there were more ppl commenting the same as you I would start questioning my ow perception of sound...but as far as I know you are the first I hear saying this about that particular speaker!!
This can only mean two things:
1) the rest of the world is deaf and knows nothing about top quality sound
2) you need an even deeper ear reset
I would not give you 100 dollars to answer stupid questions ur statement was absolutely out of this world!
The reason why you deliberately don't answer to my question about your setup is because you know exactly where I was getting at!
Beside this, there is s certain correlation between price and quality with serious manufacturer.
I could not make for you an amp that costs 10k that performs like an 100k power amp.
The reasoning that you listen to live music and therefore now your ear is calibrated can be easily proven wrong!
I know a lot of ppl who listen to live music, but they can't distinguish the qualities of a 5k power amp from a 30k for example!
Once more I am happy you are happy with what you build, and I don't know your background, but to build audio gear takes skill experience and proper instrumentation.
When it comes to speakers especially the tools are very expensive.
I seriously question less than well equipped engineers when it comes to build speakers.
But you might be as equipped as b&w and Wilson audio put together and have more experience than their best engineer...but if you test your equipment with cheapo home theater material and equipment then your speakers will be very likely just as good/bad as the stuff you use to develop them with!!
Also, it is absolutely the first time I hear somebody commenting that nautilus speaker put you to sleep! If there were more ppl commenting the same as you I would start questioning my ow perception of sound...but as far as I know you are the first I hear saying this about that particular speaker!!
This can only mean two things:
1) the rest of the world is deaf and knows nothing about top quality sound
2) you need an even deeper ear reset
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Exactly!
They should give me a discount. If I buy 5 of them I should get $49.95 off or whatever the price of the extended edition BluRay was. 🙂
Erik
Fully quote you!!
Erik did you have luck finding somebody who shares your same view on the nautilus speakers?
I bet you haven't!!!
Since you say your speakers are 100X better than any B&W you have listened too, should I take that as your setup sounds better than nautilus in quad amplification with krell power amps??? 😱😱
Do you need 100usd to answer to this or are you trying to save yourself from free embarrassment for giving such a presumptuous answer?
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I'm happy to re-state that as often as you'd like. I like my speakers much more than I like the Nautilus or any B&W. How about this. I've heard the Magico S1/Mk II driven by a couple of hundred thousand dollars of tube amps and I like those more than any B&W.
I like the Wilson Sasha's driven by Ayre or modern Audio Research more than any B&W as well.
When I am on my death bed, dying, and it's time for me to go I hope they will play B&W loudspeakers so I won't be tempted to stay any longer. Hahahahaha. 🙂 God's I'm a horrible troll. Sorry everyone.
You are under no obligation to agree, and I'm under no obligation to bring you over to my way of thinking. Enjoy what you spend money on, because I do. What I could not do is enjoy spending money on a B&W loudspeaker.
Best,
Erik
I like the Wilson Sasha's driven by Ayre or modern Audio Research more than any B&W as well.
When I am on my death bed, dying, and it's time for me to go I hope they will play B&W loudspeakers so I won't be tempted to stay any longer. Hahahahaha. 🙂 God's I'm a horrible troll. Sorry everyone.
You are under no obligation to agree, and I'm under no obligation to bring you over to my way of thinking. Enjoy what you spend money on, because I do. What I could not do is enjoy spending money on a B&W loudspeaker.
Best,
Erik
Sounds like a fair statement!
Just one last side comment personal opinion: both magician and Wilson seem to be designed to suit more impact sound big bass and drilling high freq resp (magico more than Wilson in this regard)
IMHO these are speakers designed more to suit home theater rather than reproducing accurate music!
This is my opinion after all!
Just one last side comment personal opinion: both magician and Wilson seem to be designed to suit more impact sound big bass and drilling high freq resp (magico more than Wilson in this regard)
IMHO these are speakers designed more to suit home theater rather than reproducing accurate music!
This is my opinion after all!
i think we get your opinion way back in this thread and you owned the B&W and you like it, good for you. it doesn't mean everyone have to like it.
heck, Art Vandelay modified the crossover of his 802D for the particular reason that 5th element pointed out earlier. it is the proof that some listener/owner do mind for the midrange presentation and upper band non linearity.
i personally heard the 803D, 802D and 804D, all three of them have the same problem, harsh midrange cone breakup that hurts my ear, it was not ideal situation in a showroom, but if you looked at the measurements you can see and identify the problem right away.
it's my opinion on actual listening and looking at the measurements done by Stereophile and SoundStage.
Maybe you should read better. Art has 800D2, while I have Sig800.
If you read you will find art mentioning that now with the modification h brought performance much closer to the older signature which didn't have that problem.
I have personally listened to the diamond series and could not bring myself to like it.
I am not just a b&w fan...I am a fan of good sound.
Hoping to go to this next axpona and find the right candidate to replace in speakers that will make worth The money required to do so!
Be aware signature series and even nautilus series were much more thought through in terms of making pleasant music than the latest series have shown over the years.
I also look forward to listening to D3 series!
The D3 is definitely a step up on the D2.
I've only compared 802D2 & D3, because the 800D3 isn't out until April.
The new model sounds better across the board with better mid bass speed and more transparency through the mid band and a better balanced treble.
However, looking at a pic of the crossover there appears to be zero changes other than a slight change in values of L, R, and C.
The tweeter coil resonance is still not impedance corrected, so the tweeter performance and phase coherence must still be compromised to some extent.
On another web site I noted that a guy had bought a pair of continuum drivers and replaced the kevlar FST's in his D2 802's, and claimed that they sounded superior.
I'm not sure that he measured before and after, and I'm very sure that the crossover will need to be modified to accommodate changes in the sensitivity and response, but the very fact that it's possible is good news for those who are inclined to upgrade DIY style.
I've only compared 802D2 & D3, because the 800D3 isn't out until April.
The new model sounds better across the board with better mid bass speed and more transparency through the mid band and a better balanced treble.
However, looking at a pic of the crossover there appears to be zero changes other than a slight change in values of L, R, and C.
The tweeter coil resonance is still not impedance corrected, so the tweeter performance and phase coherence must still be compromised to some extent.
On another web site I noted that a guy had bought a pair of continuum drivers and replaced the kevlar FST's in his D2 802's, and claimed that they sounded superior.
I'm not sure that he measured before and after, and I'm very sure that the crossover will need to be modified to accommodate changes in the sensitivity and response, but the very fact that it's possible is good news for those who are inclined to upgrade DIY style.
That's very interesting...and I will definitely try to accommodate the continuum material on mine too ..... is it a drop and replacement in terms of mechanical fit?
If you say XO didn't change just slight value change...I am assuming that there is not much to do to change material in terms of tweaking.....
very, very interesting!!!
How much are the woofers? Are you going to try that?
I yet have to listen to theD3 series, but if you say it is good I believe you...looking forward to hearing that at this coming audio show in chicago..
Found that:
Mid-range is 604.54USD/each
I wonder if it fits on the existing Nautilus's head. If it does it might be interesting to try it, granted I believe on the Nautilus series the crossover frequency must be significantly different from the Diamond series.
At least D2 uses same diamond and very likely same XO for HF, from which consideration, I share same perplexities Art has regarding Time and phase alignment.
I am really curious to listen to it soon.
Mid-range is 604.54USD/each
I wonder if it fits on the existing Nautilus's head. If it does it might be interesting to try it, granted I believe on the Nautilus series the crossover frequency must be significantly different from the Diamond series.
At least D2 uses same diamond and very likely same XO for HF, from which consideration, I share same perplexities Art has regarding Time and phase alignment.
I am really curious to listen to it soon.
Not sure what you are referring to. If you meant my comments about Thiel Audio speakers, sorry that was not meant to be a personal attack on Jim Thiel but I can see how that could be taken that way and I should have worded it better.
I was referring to the fact that since his unfortunate demise they have dropped the co-axial tweeters they were using for more conventional designs which I have not heard, and therefore my comments are no longer current.
Like other brands, like Snell for instance, the demise of the founder brings significant changes in direction.
I'm sure Jim Thiel, like Peter Snell, was a fine person and his demise premature, but my comments needed better sensitivity. Sorry.
Best,
Erik
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Changing out the FST isn't mandatory, and in fact it's possible that the old kevlar FST is better in certain respects because it's stiffer.
I did eventually notch the peak at 3.6kHz with a network in shunt (R+ L + C) with values that precisely matched the Q and amplitude, and after doing that I found that the phase alignment became perfect at the crossover point; when I waved a test mic through the vertical axis, instead of seeing strange discontinuities I saw a smooth (textbook) transition. This wasn't an easy exercise because it was 99% trial and error using live mls measurements, but was ultimately very worthwhile.
I've attached simulations of the response of the FST + tweeter before and after my FST crossover mods, and as you'll see, the response is much flatter.
Personally, I don't think there's too much difference between the sound of the new D3 series and my modified 800D2 in the mids, and if anything I slightly prefer my 800D2.
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