as an owner of the 800 I fully quote you...snail is completely different beast and I wish they would just make it passive crossover with state of the art XO design...I bet a lot of people would be definitely interested (me for sure)
holy cow..please keep us informed!!! That is a killer setup!!
Do you know what Gryphon will be connected to the speakers and what preamplifier? Analog or digital?
I am pretty sure you will be completely blown away by the Gyra G1....that is an even better setup than the one I have heard the Gyra's on myself....so I can only imagine the sheer power these speakers will unleash!!
I just auditioned the 802D's at a store. Powered by huge 500 watt class AB McIntosh amp and McIntosh tube preamp and nice CD player with highly acclaimed DAC. They sounded very nice - good balance, and I did not think the top end was too much. But they did not give me the feeling of being stunned and saying, "WOW, what a fantastic speaker - I want to hear more!" So not overly impressive. I have gotten stunned by full range horns and synergies. You know it when you hear it. I don't think they are transient perfect and that may be a problem...
If you were seated too low, which is almost anywhere where ear level is below the top of the FST mid they are definitely not phase coherent. The situation is worse if you're more than 15 degrees off axis.
If you read further back in this thread you'll see that I devoted considerable time to analyzing the causes and finding remedies.
After some modifications my 800 diamonds now have that 'wow' factor, and the listening height is considerably less critical.
If I recall, in the auditioning room, the FST cone is at about 33in high or so, my seated ear height is maybe 40in? So I think I was above the FST and in line with the tweeter axis. I did not get a chance to read the whole thread but you say the diamond tweeter is first order XO and it it time aligned to be transient perfect? That is, a step response will be positive going and have the characteristic right triangle fall off? If so, that would be great - but I did not particularly notice the transient perfect sound, if it was there. Phase coherent maybe, but not transient perfect.
Here is Stereophile's measured Step Response for the 802D - a total mess as far as proper impulse time alignment:
Compared to a transient perfect speaker (link here) that has a step response like this, the percussion will just not sound right:
Here is Stereophile's measured Step Response for the 802D - a total mess as far as proper impulse time alignment:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Compared to a transient perfect speaker (link here) that has a step response like this, the percussion will just not sound right:
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What speaker is transient perfect?
Even if it was possible it's only possible at one point in space from a conventional speaker system, so no speaker designer attempts to pursue it.
Fwiw, the 802D is no more or less transient perfect than any other speaker in its class, and that includes brands such as Kef, Vivid, Wilson, Focal, Revel etc.
See attached step response for the $65,000 Vivid G1
Attachments
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Fwiw, I heard a DEQX based system recently which theoretically does produce a textbook impulse (at a single location), and to be honest it sounded less like the real thing than most multi-way passive speakers I've heard.
Sometimes DIYers are over enthusiastic about a certain
measurement aspect, in this case, the step response.
BW1 and LR4 are both flat on axis, not so off-axis.
For two drivers crossed over at 500 Hz, vertically
5" offset, +40 deg vertically from tweeter axis,
polarities in phase. The response with a hole is transient
"perfect". BW1 with polarities out of phase shows the last
graph. Is that the improved percussion?
Attachments
Seems technical better transients data for speakers on the way.
Commercial:
LS1 | GrimmAudio
ZERO 1 by Avantgarde Acoustic
Kii Three for home
BeoLab 90 - Bang & Olufsens mest eksklusive gulvhøjttaler. - Bang & Olufsen
A lot of diyA activity at Rephase and miniDSP threads, below some pretty examples.
Listening position: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...er-full-range-line-array-127.html#post4391729
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-performace-testing-platform.html#post4371119
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/265053-hypercube-loudspeakers-48.html#post4331439
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273971-group-delay-questions-analysis-15.html#post4332804
Commercial:
LS1 | GrimmAudio
ZERO 1 by Avantgarde Acoustic
Kii Three for home
BeoLab 90 - Bang & Olufsens mest eksklusive gulvhøjttaler. - Bang & Olufsen
A lot of diyA activity at Rephase and miniDSP threads, below some pretty examples.
Listening position: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...er-full-range-line-array-127.html#post4391729
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-performace-testing-platform.html#post4371119
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/265053-hypercube-loudspeakers-48.html#post4331439
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273971-group-delay-questions-analysis-15.html#post4332804
Price has nothing to do with a speaker's abilities to be transient perfect.
What speaker is?
Dunlavy SC-IV for example, here is Stereophile measurement:
Dunlavy Audio Labs SC-IV/A loudspeaker Measurements part 3 | Stereophile.com
SR:
Square wave:
There are also others, but the Stereophile author said in his experience, there have only been maybe a handful of speakers he has ever tested that can do this. It is not common, it is not easy. Most people have not actually heard it so they don't know what they are missing.
As DIY'ers we have this ability to seek this as a goal and to implement it. Sometimes on a modest scale like my little 2-way bookshelf monitor.
Bwaslo has achieved it passively with a 3 way synergy called the "Cosyne" - very impressive indeed.
We can get close with the quasi-transient perfect using the Harsch asymmetric XO.
@Byrtt, yes great example and one that brings tears to my eyes. Experiencing this in real life would be something indeed.
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It's not a bad thing to be enthusiastic for. If we just go on making symmetric LR2 speakers, how are we advancing state of the art vs commercial speakers? Why not try to do it if we have the means and it is simple as changing the XO topology in DSP?
Like I said, most people have not heard transient perfect and you don't know what you don't know. But once you hear it, it's BAM! And you can't go back. Can you go back to watching PAL TV on a CRT now that you have a 1920p HD TV?
I'm curious about this transient perfect thing. As a quick experiment, using measured driver responses I calculated the on-axis impulse response for a 3-way system I'm messing with. The corresponding step response looks about the same as the plots for the 802D and Vivid G1 - typical 3-way phase coherent but not transient-perfect.
Listening to percussion tracks on headphones, I can't hear any difference when flipping back and forth between the original track and the same track convolved with the impulse response. That's what I expected from the little I know about psychoacoustics, but seems at odds with some of the recent comments here that suggest night-and-day differences. Must try it tonight using speakers and see if there is an audible difference.
Listening to percussion tracks on headphones, I can't hear any difference when flipping back and forth between the original track and the same track convolved with the impulse response. That's what I expected from the little I know about psychoacoustics, but seems at odds with some of the recent comments here that suggest night-and-day differences. Must try it tonight using speakers and see if there is an audible difference.
I am sure about that....like I said many times it's not only about measurements and this one is just an example of what I was trying to express!
Why so hung up on that single point;
While I could post impulses from my line arrays which hold up of axis, up and down vertically I'll show an example from Mitch's 3 way instead:
(as posted here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-1157.html#post3939813)
Overlay of 6 IR's at the LP around a 6' x 2' grid with digital FIR correction:
.
Seems more valid in a multi way discussion to show a 3 way sample. The example isn't the best one I'm sure as in that thread we can see that the particular AD/DA is partly responsible for some ringing after the impulse. See the digital loopback:
But the STEP still is pretty much the same in those 6 spots:
So please tell me where that rumour came from that such an impulse or time coherence behaviour can only be valid or happening at one point. You would be right if you do the processing the wrong way though
. Is it because of the single point measurements in the process that you guys assume it will only be valid at that one point? The example from Mitch is a good example to debunk that story. Invest some time yourself and you'll see and learn more than simply arguing with unfounded opinions.Will a 3 way hold up that impulse in vertical measurements? Neh... but will the passive crossover have the same results in vertical measurements? Neh...
Now a floor to ceiling array, that's a little different. But I won't go there
So it works in more than one spot? Who would have thought that!
You want to know what the difference is? Read up on John Dunlavy, Steen Duelund and many more who did realise there are indeed differences to be heard. But this is only one part of the road to getting convincing sound. One that has been ignored by many. But every one always states they want to reproduce the recorded material the best they can. Microphones are pretty time coherent... shouldn't our speakers be time coherent as well then, to stay true to the music?
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That's very interesting and meaningful! The human hear is not so sensitive to distortion and with what you are saying, not so much to impulsive response either.
This is why there are great speakers like 800 that measure not as good as the speaker here in the example, but likely, will outperform it on a listening environment.
One has to be careful to listen to things before assuming it must be good because it measures great. This is an assumption people use to make on the 80s on amplifier's test, where they wouldn't even listen to it but only look at how many zeros there were on the THD figure.
In short, you go listen to those amplifiers now and you will get a headache in a matter of 30 seconds!
Now how many time coherent speakers have you heard to come to that conclusion? The examples shown here are mostly from DIY people. Hearing one example of a speaker that had some DSP involved would hardly count. There's more than only that STEP to reproduce convincing sound but it is part of it if you want to take it a step further (nu pun intended).
Speaking for myself I would be too poor to purchase a set of B&W speakers nor do I have any desire to do so.
Check up on what little time differences humans can pick up on, you'll be amazed. If your left and right speaker do pretty much the same thing, like in the B&W example, you still have the benefit of hearing the stage and imaging. Converting such a setup to time coherent behaviour does get you something else. If you play an instrument (with a passion) you'll probably hear the differences immediately. When all the harmonics fall into place that were preserved in the recording you'll hear more convincing sounds from the instruments and environment. Granted, the frequency response still is as important as are room effects etc. It's just a tiny part of that puzzle.
I won't claim speakers that aren't time coherent are rubbish. But now that we have means to go beyond that, why not explore the new boundaries? That's how we get ahead you know... If I did have a set of B&W speakers I would probably run them active, with DSP processing and make them act time coherent.
They (B&W) probably will go that route in the near future
. Slowly but surely DSP is gaining more terrain in professional/commercial applications.P.S. You could bring over the B&W's to compare
We'd need a huge curtain to hide the speakers from sight though. P.P.S. One more thing:
Steen Duelund had this to say about the LR4 crossover:
That will give you a hint at what's missing in the play back of non time coherent speakers... Think about it for a while.Steen Duelund said:
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well, I have heard a lot of speakers, but I don't know what you mean about time coherent and nobody has ever given a disclaimer saying this speaker is time coherent...or no it's not.....so in short...I might have as I might have not.
I do play an instrument with passion, but I can also tell you that many musicians that are not interested in high level reproduction will not necessary be able to pick out something good.
Bear in mind that when you play an instrument, your ear is above the instrument, so there is no space between you and the instrument and this changes SIGNIFICANTLY the nature of the sound and also you are concentrated on something completely different.
If you play an instrument like I do, you will understand what I am saying without me having to give further explanations.
What I can tell however, to my hear B&W Nautilus evoke ME live music's reproduction much more greatly than other speakers.
We don't want to forget that a big portion of the good sound comes from the electronics, I would say even more than from speakers in my experience.
In fact, a lower quality speaker driven by real top quality electronics can sound much better than a top quality speaker driven by mediocre electronics.
I don't want to open a another can of warm....but I am definitely curious to audition the new B&W...maybe they will be stunning to make me prefer them over my Nautilus series, maybe not.
Vivid is definitely a one of a kind speaker, you need to audition it properly, although it is not time aligned and I am sure the designer knows how to create time aligned speakers and if he hasn't decided to do so, I believe there must be a reason.
But again, everybody hears a little different and what I might adore you might not, but I think we should all be able to conclude at least that even though you don't like something, the speaker or electronic we both listen to is a serious performer.
The audio field implies some degree of subjectivity but there also should be more objectivity when judging the SOUND of a speaker or an electronics for what matters.
I do play an instrument with passion, but I can also tell you that many musicians that are not interested in high level reproduction will not necessary be able to pick out something good.
Bear in mind that when you play an instrument, your ear is above the instrument, so there is no space between you and the instrument and this changes SIGNIFICANTLY the nature of the sound and also you are concentrated on something completely different.
If you play an instrument like I do, you will understand what I am saying without me having to give further explanations.
What I can tell however, to my hear B&W Nautilus evoke ME live music's reproduction much more greatly than other speakers.
We don't want to forget that a big portion of the good sound comes from the electronics, I would say even more than from speakers in my experience.
In fact, a lower quality speaker driven by real top quality electronics can sound much better than a top quality speaker driven by mediocre electronics.
I don't want to open a another can of warm....but I am definitely curious to audition the new B&W...maybe they will be stunning to make me prefer them over my Nautilus series, maybe not.
Vivid is definitely a one of a kind speaker, you need to audition it properly, although it is not time aligned and I am sure the designer knows how to create time aligned speakers and if he hasn't decided to do so, I believe there must be a reason.
But again, everybody hears a little different and what I might adore you might not, but I think we should all be able to conclude at least that even though you don't like something, the speaker or electronic we both listen to is a serious performer.
The audio field implies some degree of subjectivity but there also should be more objectivity when judging the SOUND of a speaker or an electronics for what matters.
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