I base my choice on a a mix of things.
I never go past the point of diminishing returns though - No fancy 200$ caps here, thanks.
I will usually figure out the ripple/ESR requirements, and select the longest life cap for the job - preferably automotive grade - if it works under the hood of a car, it'll work in a hot tube amp.
I'm surprised at this thread. If guy just wants to change some capacitors in his own equipment to see if they 'sound any different' why such a strong negative reaction? It's his equipment, his money, his ears and his brain. He's just having a bit of fun with audio like all of us here. Maybe he'll notice something interesting? Maybe he won't. Who knows. But I'll defend his right to do that and he'll probably learn something from the experience.
But, negating a (maybe) possible effect based on oversimplification isn't science either. 🙂
It certainly does not help to introcude the terms "boutique" or "price" into such a discussion as these are neither related to physical properties nor to perceptual effects.
Evaluation of audibility is a quite complex task, simply due to the differences in circuits (see for example frequency compensation parts connected to rails in an amplifier) and the actual implementations that could be (or more likely are) less than perfect and therefore introduce confounding variables.
Further, the design and execution of a sound listening test is (as we all should know by now 😉 ) is anything but simple.
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another great divide
Sadly, it costs time and money to find out...
Some (actually many) will never experience this.
How does it measure?
- -
What's it sound like?
The divide is immense.
I build great sounding gear,
...with great parts...
Figures Lie and Liars Figure
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Figures Don't Lie, but Liars Figure
No wonder confusion is so rampant...
Sadly, it costs time and money to find out...
Some (actually many) will never experience this.
How does it measure?
- -
What's it sound like?
The divide is immense.
I build great sounding gear,
...with great parts...
Figures Lie and Liars Figure
- -
Figures Don't Lie, but Liars Figure
No wonder confusion is so rampant...
There's more than one John in this thread, however if that is a note to me then I wholeheartedly agree!
That you don't know or else didn't mention? That the model you posted changes with frequency? That capacitor DA can be modeled as an RC ladder network?
Of course, next maybe you will argue that such details don't matter because they are below audibility. If so, I would like you to provide the same level of proof on your claim that you would demand of me.
Of course.
Anybody can do anything at home and like it or not, learn something or not, who cares?
None of our business and more power to him.
Point is, NOBODY complained about that, don´t know where you got that idea from.😕
Now, when he posts that in a PUBLIC Forum, devoted exclusively to Discussion ... then he´s BEGGING for comments and answers. 😎
His ideas will be discussed, by the Public present.
He may like those answers or not, but that´s the way the game goes.
In general, ideas going against the mainstream, contradicting established knowledge, datasheets, papers, Physics Laws, widely used practice, etc. , WILL be challenged more than the average, and with good reason.
Answering those challenges with objective PROOF is always welcome, every week some Member posts some bright idea which advances Audio knowledge, I guess that´s one of the pillars of this very Forum and which makes it important.
Now, getting angry, giving anecdote far more weight than it actually has (not denying that often it contains a grain of truth) and even worse, dissing and trying to destroy established Knowledge for no good reason, just because it contradicts his flimsy premises ... well ... it won´t go far.
Nihil sub sole novum. A very common logic fallacy from the same MOP.
Can’t prove a negative dear, the onus is on you to find the those magic Golden Ears.
BUT we are talking on this thread about pre-regulator bulk capacitors. When you get to capacitors with a significant signal drop across them then even Self will show you measurements how different capacitors can change the measurements. In this location poor design or pathalogical parts might do something but it's very doubful and a strong case would need to be made.
If you are going to keep using such language then maybe we will have to start referring to your side as the Deaf Boys. Seems fair we both refrain from name-calling or else both are free to use it.
Bill,
Pre-regulator filter caps obviously don't have to be labeled audio grade by the manufacturer. However, power transformers and other circuitry before the regulators can have some effect on resulting sound. Capacitors and other components should be chosen that are suitable for the purposes of a particular project, that's all.
Pre-regulator filter caps obviously don't have to be labeled audio grade by the manufacturer. However, power transformers and other circuitry before the regulators can have some effect on resulting sound. Capacitors and other components should be chosen that are suitable for the purposes of a particular project, that's all.
The power supply SYSTEM can create crud on the power rails that, for a loved audiophile approved low PSRR topology could get into the output for sure, but snubbing after the diodes or an active rectifier would actually create a measurable improvement there.
A systems approach would work out what was needed at each point. An 'ooh look a component I can change for a shinier one' approach rarely improves anything other than the bank balance of the component seller.
A systems approach would work out what was needed at each point. An 'ooh look a component I can change for a shinier one' approach rarely improves anything other than the bank balance of the component seller.
Well, I don’t mind, I might be a Deaf Boy. But not enough deaf to miss the music enjoyment.
Sorry, but we do not, as the OP wrote more in general (at least I'd assume):
"every time I am ordering caps for power supplies, I see audio grade caps that, at least on mouser, it is only Nichicon and maybe sometimes kemet. while general purpose is available from many manufacturers. so far I have always ordered audio grade, but is it really necessary?"
Of course, the subtopic "pre-regulator bulk capacitors" was introduced, but we both surely know, that the course of the discussion would be essetually the same regardless of the actual position of the capacitor in the power supplies, don't we? 😉
That was in 2019...
I would put that as the thread was re-started anew on this after a sleep of 2 years.
Caps will always be important in regards to audio quality. It is best to design audio equipment with a minimum of caps, and then use the best quality cap that can be afforded for the design. I don't mean 'boutique' caps that may cost $100's, but the best audio grade caps that normally Japanese manufacturers make. Nichicon Muse is good, for example. There are differences in many seemingly similar looking caps, for example the difference between steel leads and copper leads. This can be easily shown with a magnet. There are many other internal differences too, so there are real audio differences, AND the wrong cap selection can seriously compromise a given design, while selecting a better, almost visually identical cap, can make it acceptable even to the most critical ears. Real audio designers know this and we discuss amongst ourselves on a regular basis. After all, who wants to make an 'accidentally' compromised product when our names will be associated with it? Of course, if the bottom line is cost, often, and then we have to apologize to each other for using the cheapest cap we can get away with, saying something like: "It would really sound better if I could have used better caps, etc.. " Yes, it really happens. It is only the 'armchair critics' like those here who don't believe this.
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