DrG said:
Dear DrG,
If you read my previous posts in this thread (from the beginning) and if you take the effort to dig somewhat deeper through this forum you will get the answer.
And for your convenience, no I do not “truly think it represents the epitome of musical enjoyment”. I have never said that, neither did others.
fdegrove said:Hi,
Pjotr,
Shall we make an IGC with discrete valves?
Cheers,😉
LOL
I am not sure that will make DrG happy. But I will keep it in mind
There are other projects first on the stack. Cheers 😉
Now there's s good suggestion! You could call it the Pjotr-clone... Perhaps you could make a whole army of them and challenge the Jedi...
DrG said:
Hmm,
Have no urge to do so. As for me, you may have it. Your name is also more appropriate:
“DrGC” or "DrGIC" depending on topology.
😀
Cheers 😉
oh for Hybrid ICs
i see that DR GC is in an IC Amp forum baggin ICs - the irony is not lost upon me,
but before bagging out all ICs look before you leap
older STKs are getting harder to find but new ones keep coming...
how about something like an STK - only in the high end level
Technics had a line of Hybrid ICs in their high quality amps from the 80s example being 2X80W @ 0.004%THD (20hz-20khz)
(that includes all distortion from previous stages in set)
theese are somewhat more complicated to drive (as the IC shown here is purely an output stage) you have option of making discreete driving curcuitry or IC drive circuitry. need i say this IC could outdo krells etc in the same power bracket (given comparable drive circuitry) - i believe the reason that krell etc do not use ICS is they dont have the multi billion dollar plant to make them.
- Baily
ps: note symmetrical build (good phase shift cont) and ALL siscreete SMD's / raw silicon devices
i see that DR GC is in an IC Amp forum baggin ICs - the irony is not lost upon me,
but before bagging out all ICs look before you leap
older STKs are getting harder to find but new ones keep coming...
how about something like an STK - only in the high end level
Technics had a line of Hybrid ICs in their high quality amps from the 80s example being 2X80W @ 0.004%THD (20hz-20khz)
(that includes all distortion from previous stages in set)
theese are somewhat more complicated to drive (as the IC shown here is purely an output stage) you have option of making discreete driving curcuitry or IC drive circuitry. need i say this IC could outdo krells etc in the same power bracket (given comparable drive circuitry) - i believe the reason that krell etc do not use ICS is they dont have the multi billion dollar plant to make them.
- Baily
ps: note symmetrical build (good phase shift cont) and ALL siscreete SMD's / raw silicon devices
Attachments
Wow this is a long thread.
Whatever you believe about the design of "gainclones", how they seem to sound to you at 3am, or anything like that - the fact remains that they measure better than any other amp I have measured:
http://www.adx.co.nz/techinfo/audio/gainclone1.htm
And that on its own puts them in the high end category (it doesn't mean they will all sound good, it just means the chips are capable of demonstrating what would have been out of this world measurements a few years ago). The fact the circuity is on one chip and doesn't use so called high end componentry means very little. Once you strip away all the marketing hype, you'll find that most high end amplifiers are also ultimately designed for minimum cost.
I'd rather trust my own measurements and the subjective opinions of a large community of DIYers, than marketing hype of any money-pumping high end amp manufacturer (myself included if I ever get to the money pump stage).
Whatever you believe about the design of "gainclones", how they seem to sound to you at 3am, or anything like that - the fact remains that they measure better than any other amp I have measured:
http://www.adx.co.nz/techinfo/audio/gainclone1.htm
And that on its own puts them in the high end category (it doesn't mean they will all sound good, it just means the chips are capable of demonstrating what would have been out of this world measurements a few years ago). The fact the circuity is on one chip and doesn't use so called high end componentry means very little. Once you strip away all the marketing hype, you'll find that most high end amplifiers are also ultimately designed for minimum cost.
I'd rather trust my own measurements and the subjective opinions of a large community of DIYers, than marketing hype of any money-pumping high end amp manufacturer (myself included if I ever get to the money pump stage).
what a thread.. I think the whole point of the gainclone, is that joeblow from anywhere on the planet can get his hands on the parts to build a nice gainclone for a price that almost any diyer can afford.. the gainclone may not be the best sounding amp in the world, but it is damn good, and I would challenge anyone to design and build a better sounding amp in the time frame (few hours) and price point of a gainclone ($50-200US) and that's what draws people to the gainclone.. I speak from experience, I built one and I love it.. I'm already planning the next ones.. for home and car, and even one for the girlfriend..
There are alot of amps better than a gainclone.. but when you put price/time in the equation it's hard to beat.
There are alot of amps better than a gainclone.. but when you put price/time in the equation it's hard to beat.
Quote DrG:
This is the nature of cars, photography, amps and life in general. You get what you pay for, one way or another. So, no matter how disagreeable you may find the truth, that is what it shall remain: the unavoidable, undeniable truth!
^ Oh really? Since when is that really true?
I paid $1500 for my car, $50 into the engine, $250 into the tranny, $800 into rims/tires, $200 into some spiffier brake hoses.. oh yeah, $30 in a good set of front pads, and $80 in a set of polyurethane control arm bushings.. let's not forget $100 in KYB shocks. For the record, it's a 1979 Formula with a 455/4 speed/2.41:1 posi rear.
Let's look at something: my car has no down time.. except for once when I left the same fuel filter in for a few years and it started running a little rough.. time to replace: 10 minutes. It pulled .87g in the skidpad stock, and will now pull well over .9gs thanks to not having 1978 tire technology and having wider tires with a shorter sidewall. It turns 13s in the quarter mile and has a top speed of 165mph. I haven't tested 60-0 braking, but stock it was nearly as good as most new "performance cars." It has power windows/locks/trunk/tilt column.
My friend paid $15k for his M3. No matter which one of us drives the M3, it will not outperform my Formula. It will not out accelerate it, it will not out turn it, and it has no more top end. The brakes don't feel as responsive, and it doesn't feel like it brakes as fast. I feel that my car looks better, his car looks like it has no character.. but that's opinion.
Now please tell me HOW we both got what we paid for! My car outclasses his EVERYWHERE (and usually badly), and I find our cars equally comfortable but happen to like my dash/shifter layout better. No, my car doesn't say BMW on it.. and I'm thankful for it! His car cost 5x as much for that name on it.. and what did he get for it?
Or we could look at computers. Hmm.. let's see.. an AMD CPU vs an Intel CPU. Regardless of whether you like one or the other, it's a FACT that the AMD outclasses the Intel CPUs MHz for MHz. This has been so since the Athlon. Do you get what you pay for? Nope. AMD a couple years ago were also MUCH cheaper than Intels, having much better price/performance ratios. Now Intel has been playing games and can do a few things faster (video encoding comes to mind).. but does it really matter?
Or.. how about a pair of Radioshack 12" 3 way speakers vs a pair of KLHs? Neither is really good, but I can tell you that the KLHs will kill the Radiosuck drivers in every regard! Best part? Same price!
Maybe you'd like to speak of Guitars? Compare my Fender Strat ($500 sale price) to my Schecter Omen-6 with a JB pickup ($300 sale price + $10 for used pickup) and there's no contest. The Strat is nice, yea, but the Schecter sounds better and plays better.. it FEELS nicer to play, as well.
Hype, hype, hype!
Let's say we're looking at a mid-power system.. say 100w/channel. We want it to sound good.
What do you think might be the better choice for sound alone?
#1 Buy an expensive amp with good specs (150w/channel, excellent distortion figures, etc)
#2 Build a trio of chip amps for each speaker with some active crossovers (say a 3886 bass, 1875 mid/tweeter with very high efficiency mids/tweeters.. pair of 94dB mid, and single 97dB tweeter.. 68-30-30 watts total available power/channel if you use 4-8-8 ohm loads)
Ok, maybe that's not all that fair since we're comparing manufactured amps to DIY.. but do you think the sound difference would be all that great in that application comparing discrete to chipamps considering both would be well thought out? I somehow doubt it.. and then that brings us down to this: the chipamp would be easier to design and assemble with no loss of audio quality.
Maybe that was a bit of a rant.. or more than a bit.
This is the nature of cars, photography, amps and life in general. You get what you pay for, one way or another. So, no matter how disagreeable you may find the truth, that is what it shall remain: the unavoidable, undeniable truth!
^ Oh really? Since when is that really true?
I paid $1500 for my car, $50 into the engine, $250 into the tranny, $800 into rims/tires, $200 into some spiffier brake hoses.. oh yeah, $30 in a good set of front pads, and $80 in a set of polyurethane control arm bushings.. let's not forget $100 in KYB shocks. For the record, it's a 1979 Formula with a 455/4 speed/2.41:1 posi rear.
Let's look at something: my car has no down time.. except for once when I left the same fuel filter in for a few years and it started running a little rough.. time to replace: 10 minutes. It pulled .87g in the skidpad stock, and will now pull well over .9gs thanks to not having 1978 tire technology and having wider tires with a shorter sidewall. It turns 13s in the quarter mile and has a top speed of 165mph. I haven't tested 60-0 braking, but stock it was nearly as good as most new "performance cars." It has power windows/locks/trunk/tilt column.
My friend paid $15k for his M3. No matter which one of us drives the M3, it will not outperform my Formula. It will not out accelerate it, it will not out turn it, and it has no more top end. The brakes don't feel as responsive, and it doesn't feel like it brakes as fast. I feel that my car looks better, his car looks like it has no character.. but that's opinion.
Now please tell me HOW we both got what we paid for! My car outclasses his EVERYWHERE (and usually badly), and I find our cars equally comfortable but happen to like my dash/shifter layout better. No, my car doesn't say BMW on it.. and I'm thankful for it! His car cost 5x as much for that name on it.. and what did he get for it?
Or we could look at computers. Hmm.. let's see.. an AMD CPU vs an Intel CPU. Regardless of whether you like one or the other, it's a FACT that the AMD outclasses the Intel CPUs MHz for MHz. This has been so since the Athlon. Do you get what you pay for? Nope. AMD a couple years ago were also MUCH cheaper than Intels, having much better price/performance ratios. Now Intel has been playing games and can do a few things faster (video encoding comes to mind).. but does it really matter?
Or.. how about a pair of Radioshack 12" 3 way speakers vs a pair of KLHs? Neither is really good, but I can tell you that the KLHs will kill the Radiosuck drivers in every regard! Best part? Same price!
Maybe you'd like to speak of Guitars? Compare my Fender Strat ($500 sale price) to my Schecter Omen-6 with a JB pickup ($300 sale price + $10 for used pickup) and there's no contest. The Strat is nice, yea, but the Schecter sounds better and plays better.. it FEELS nicer to play, as well.
Hype, hype, hype!
Let's say we're looking at a mid-power system.. say 100w/channel. We want it to sound good.
What do you think might be the better choice for sound alone?
#1 Buy an expensive amp with good specs (150w/channel, excellent distortion figures, etc)
#2 Build a trio of chip amps for each speaker with some active crossovers (say a 3886 bass, 1875 mid/tweeter with very high efficiency mids/tweeters.. pair of 94dB mid, and single 97dB tweeter.. 68-30-30 watts total available power/channel if you use 4-8-8 ohm loads)
Ok, maybe that's not all that fair since we're comparing manufactured amps to DIY.. but do you think the sound difference would be all that great in that application comparing discrete to chipamps considering both would be well thought out? I somehow doubt it.. and then that brings us down to this: the chipamp would be easier to design and assemble with no loss of audio quality.
Maybe that was a bit of a rant.. or more than a bit.
Well jsd, you seem to have a real batmobile there! I have my doubts you'd keep up with an M3 on a course though... For starters you're probably running a live rear axle which is unlikely to confer decent handling compared to an independent setup. And the M3 has a top-end quite a bit over 165mph - ask your buddy to have his limiter removed and see where it goes... Not to mention that $15k could only buy you an aging example of the previous M3, not the current E46 model which does 0-100km/h in 5.2 sec and 100-0km/h in 2.8sec. And the 5yr warranty and maintenance plan have to count for something, although you seem so handy with mechanicals that this probably is an irrelevant point. Maybe you should mass-produce this M3 killer of yours. I'm sure hundreds of M3 owners would ditch their rides on the spot for a screamer like that!
But we digress, this is an audio forum lest I forget.
In principle I see your point and agree with you totally 100%. So I fully expect you to dissect your next LM audio chip (carefully) and replace the o/p devices with wide-b/w Sankens, upgrade the caps (ceramic chips suck for audio I hear...) and consider replacing the resistors with Caddocks. Should be a LOT cheaper than souping your car was. Although the microscope you'd require might dent the wallet a bit.
rwaudio speaks truth:
adx:
SVI2004A:
But we digress, this is an audio forum lest I forget.
In principle I see your point and agree with you totally 100%. So I fully expect you to dissect your next LM audio chip (carefully) and replace the o/p devices with wide-b/w Sankens, upgrade the caps (ceramic chips suck for audio I hear...) and consider replacing the resistors with Caddocks. Should be a LOT cheaper than souping your car was. Although the microscope you'd require might dent the wallet a bit.
rwaudio speaks truth:
adx:
Measurements mean diddly... there are hundreds of excellent-sounding tube-amps out there with zero NFB, 2-digit THD at fullpower and poor IMD which sound beautiful despite these crummy measurements. And some wouldn't cost much more to build than a GC incidentally...
SVI2004A:
I'm afraid the irony is totally lost upon you. My nick is DrG...
My point was price/performance, and overall performance, as you no doubt realized but chose to side step. 🙂 How about my CPU example? Or guitars?
Ah, and a solid live axle is not such a detriment as you're lead to believe by magazine editors, nor are leaf springs vs coil springs. They're not considered very "racey," like IRS is.. but they perform well in handling situations with a good design... just as chip amps will! (I had to sneak it in there, and you know it!)
I believe without the speed limiter, the M3 will reach ~170mph, it's a '96 model. That top speed run was limited by the fact that it's damn scary doing over 140mph on a public road and by the fact that I have a self imposed 5000RPM redline. It may or may not have gone faster than it was going. I do however know someone with a similar car (79 Trans Am), but with a smaller higher revving engine (400cu in - 6.6 liters for you metric boys) that has exceeded 200mph. Our suspension setups are eerily similar, and he has pulled .98gs. The M3 can't come close to touching that.. it can change direction a tad bit faster due to an inherently better weight distribution coming from the lighter 6 cylinder. But.. I know how to steer with all four wheels, and the car is capable of doing it! A little drifting can't hurt going through a turn! I have another '79 I'm building, this one a Trans Am.. and in goes a Corvette IRS, engine is getting pushed back 8" with aluminum heads and lots of other goodies. I didn't build my car to be an M3 killer, it just happens to do it rather nicely for a lot less money.. and it's all done with all stock parts.
Now that I've went seriously off topic, what about the other things I've noted? Do you really think chipamps sound BAD?
Ah, and a solid live axle is not such a detriment as you're lead to believe by magazine editors, nor are leaf springs vs coil springs. They're not considered very "racey," like IRS is.. but they perform well in handling situations with a good design... just as chip amps will! (I had to sneak it in there, and you know it!)
I believe without the speed limiter, the M3 will reach ~170mph, it's a '96 model. That top speed run was limited by the fact that it's damn scary doing over 140mph on a public road and by the fact that I have a self imposed 5000RPM redline. It may or may not have gone faster than it was going. I do however know someone with a similar car (79 Trans Am), but with a smaller higher revving engine (400cu in - 6.6 liters for you metric boys) that has exceeded 200mph. Our suspension setups are eerily similar, and he has pulled .98gs. The M3 can't come close to touching that.. it can change direction a tad bit faster due to an inherently better weight distribution coming from the lighter 6 cylinder. But.. I know how to steer with all four wheels, and the car is capable of doing it! A little drifting can't hurt going through a turn! I have another '79 I'm building, this one a Trans Am.. and in goes a Corvette IRS, engine is getting pushed back 8" with aluminum heads and lots of other goodies. I didn't build my car to be an M3 killer, it just happens to do it rather nicely for a lot less money.. and it's all done with all stock parts.
Now that I've went seriously off topic, what about the other things I've noted? Do you really think chipamps sound BAD?
Well I moved to diy audio stuff after realizing diy cars were too expensive! Or rather the 30 minutes a 300 hood would give me, I could get a month or so and some fun out of building some audio stuff for the same price.
I have also gotten the mind set that getting 95% of the "sound" is good enough for me, I'm not gonna spend 3 times as much building something, just because there might possibly maybe be some little nuance I didn't here before.
It's like that with anything. There are faster computers than what I have, there are faster cars, bigger speakers, and better paying jobs. I'm content 🙂 Haha never mind, my sig has said it all along.
I have also gotten the mind set that getting 95% of the "sound" is good enough for me, I'm not gonna spend 3 times as much building something, just because there might possibly maybe be some little nuance I didn't here before.
It's like that with anything. There are faster computers than what I have, there are faster cars, bigger speakers, and better paying jobs. I'm content 🙂 Haha never mind, my sig has said it all along.
jsd, you're missing the point. There are many ways to measure "overall performance" of a car. I've no idea what the significance of 0.98g's as applied to a car. None. But perhaps you'd explain how it relates to performance or handling and how it's measured?
You Americans seem fond of straight-line speed, quarter-miles, dragging and oval racing. All of which lay huge emphasis on engine performance and little on handling. I prefer circuit racing to compare cars where straight-line dominance will not guarantee a win. Here are two good examples.
The C32 AMG Mercedes vs. the Opel Astra coupe around a track: Merc power=260kW (about 350hp) and torque=460Nm (no idea of imperial equivalent); Opel power=170kW and torque=300Nm. The Opel was less than 1 sec slower around a 2-mile track.
My previous E46 M3: 252kW/360Nm vs. my current Mazda RX8 170kW/211Nm. 0-100=5.2s for M3 and 6.8s for Mazda...but... EXACTLY the same time around a track. Tested by BBC TopGear's Jeremy Clarkson. Go figure... And M3 vs AMG on a circuit: no contest. BTDT and got the T-shirt!
With all due respect I feel sure that your admittedly powerful car would not shape well in standard form or with your modifications in that kind of contest. And to top it all, if we are going to compare apples with similar then we should bring in a V8 M5 rather, or a similarly modified M3, don't you think...
As to CPU's... I'm really not au fait enought to get into that but I do know that motherboard choice has a HUGE impact on CPU performance, as bus clock speed and IDE throughput can have on overall performance. And whereas the Athlon excels in many operations, Intel still outperforms in some (was it floating-point functions, I forget).
Guitars: I've never been a strat fan. I play a Gibson Nighthawk.
You Americans seem fond of straight-line speed, quarter-miles, dragging and oval racing. All of which lay huge emphasis on engine performance and little on handling. I prefer circuit racing to compare cars where straight-line dominance will not guarantee a win. Here are two good examples.
The C32 AMG Mercedes vs. the Opel Astra coupe around a track: Merc power=260kW (about 350hp) and torque=460Nm (no idea of imperial equivalent); Opel power=170kW and torque=300Nm. The Opel was less than 1 sec slower around a 2-mile track.
My previous E46 M3: 252kW/360Nm vs. my current Mazda RX8 170kW/211Nm. 0-100=5.2s for M3 and 6.8s for Mazda...but... EXACTLY the same time around a track. Tested by BBC TopGear's Jeremy Clarkson. Go figure... And M3 vs AMG on a circuit: no contest. BTDT and got the T-shirt!
With all due respect I feel sure that your admittedly powerful car would not shape well in standard form or with your modifications in that kind of contest. And to top it all, if we are going to compare apples with similar then we should bring in a V8 M5 rather, or a similarly modified M3, don't you think...
As to CPU's... I'm really not au fait enought to get into that but I do know that motherboard choice has a HUGE impact on CPU performance, as bus clock speed and IDE throughput can have on overall performance. And whereas the Athlon excels in many operations, Intel still outperforms in some (was it floating-point functions, I forget).
Guitars: I've never been a strat fan. I play a Gibson Nighthawk.
DrG said:
DrG, it just happened that you got into my area:
Mobos may have been a while ago that different. Not anymore, when it comes to performance. Most of the mainboards for a platform, be it Intel or Athlon(32 or 64) yield a pretty close performance(within 0-5%), and if you go to the upper level, you get to the point where there is no performance difference in the real world. The difference between the mobos these days lies in the stability, overcloking features and all the sugar one may thing of(integrated this and that). As about IDE and the like, it is well known that if you want performance you'd go RAID, and most of the times, a PCI card.
As about Intel being better than AMD at floating point, that's not precisely so. Intel's SSE might be better than AMD's floating point, but that won't make Intel's floating point faster.
I was an Intel user, I am an Intel user, I was as much as I am an AMD user, and it just happens that I prefer AMD(and this is what I got home). I can get an AMD for 70 Euro and make it perform at least like an Intel priced at 200+ Euro.
For you it looks like you have enough money, so this may not be of essence for YOU, but look out there how an AMD 2.2GHz outperform and Intel 3.4 GHz. Maybe you enjoy getting an Intel and bragging about the well over 3GHz toy you got, while I'll be in the shadow, not bragging about my 2.2GHz AMD, but knowing it is better than yours.
As about the gainclones... have you build one and have you tried to tweak it? See if you can make it the way you like it. Spend some time, give it a chance. Or you prefer calling it Unteramp?
Like I said roibm, I really don't have that much interest in CPU's. I have a simple 2G Athlon and I really don't give a damn one way or the other.
And as for a clone... built two and while they're not "bad" to my ears they are also not particularly good in my opinion. Best left to surround channels and car audio I think.
And as for a clone... built two and while they're not "bad" to my ears they are also not particularly good in my opinion. Best left to surround channels and car audio I think.
A modified M3 would also cost a lot of money! We're already comparing a $4k car vs a $15k car. Compare that $4k car vs $60k (that's about what a new M3 costs, right?) car and see really close handling performance.
.98gs refers to how many lateral g forces that the car is capable of. I've driven M3s, new Trans Ams, Corvettes, 1st gen Firebirds, GTOs, Chevelles (my friend with the M3 also happens to own a 68 Chevelle that I did some suspension upgrades on), stock RX7s, souped up RX7s, and all kinds of other cars. I've had rides in Ferraris (F355, 360 Modena).
My car wouldn't be outclassed badly on a track by a new M3, and depending on whos driving what car I have a pretty good chance of taking a new M3.
Yeah, now you're talking M5.. and even more expensive car! And I'm betting the M5 is worse on a track than the M3 BECAUSE of the overall weight of the M5. While it does have over 400 net horsepower (as I recall), it also weighs in the realm of 4000lbs, right? I can be wrong here - I don't keep up on my BMWs.
No, Americans are not all about straight line. I do have a "straight line," car, and it's tons of fun to cruise around in.. but I find my Firebird far more enjoying when I'm driving hard. It's well an extremely well balanced car. The "straight line car," is a 1967 LeMans, which the 455 came out of to go back into the Formula until I build a 400cuin engine for it. It doesn't handle BAD (that also got polyurethane bushings, Trans Am spindles for revised suspension geometry, Trans Am swaybar, and some other fun stuff).. but it's not like my err "M3 killer." 🙂
Intel does have something on AMD: their video encoding and hyperthreading. AMDs FPU is FAR better than Intels. Motherboard doesn't make a whole lot of difference.. the FSB is dependent on the CPU. When Athlons were maturing in Socket 462 form, you could get an "inbetween" chipset so you could still use SDRAM.. these were pretty crappy chipsets, meant for a consumer that couldn't afford to upgrade their RAM etc along with their CPU, and their price and performance reflected that. In that case, would it be worth it to you if you did video encoding 20% of the time spent on the PC, and the Intel did it 20% faster.. but cost 200% more?
Again, we're back to.. do you think chip amps sound bad? How many have you listened to? I'm no audio engineer, but I do trust my ears! These are NOT horrible pieces of equipments, they're not childs play toys.. they work, they sound good. I'm not going to say that they're the best amps in the world.. but what's wrong with liking them?
Are people miffed because someones chipamp sounded as good as their discrete amp, but it only took the chipamp builder 25% of the money for the amp (excluding PSU) and 10% of the time to build/design it? 🙂
Kinda reminds me about some guy with a Porsche who I smoked on some windy roads after he talked a whole lot of crap. Then he started talking about how his car was better just because it said Porsche on it. I still didn't understand the logic there, but some people are just weird like that. They have to justify why they went ahead and bought something for way more money that didn't perform a lot better, or even as good as something cheaper and seemed a weaker design (ie my leaf sprung solid live axle in a 26 year old car with a 50 year old engine design with a carbereutor.. that car with all of its "inherent design flaws," happened to kill his "refined," Porsche).
.98gs refers to how many lateral g forces that the car is capable of. I've driven M3s, new Trans Ams, Corvettes, 1st gen Firebirds, GTOs, Chevelles (my friend with the M3 also happens to own a 68 Chevelle that I did some suspension upgrades on), stock RX7s, souped up RX7s, and all kinds of other cars. I've had rides in Ferraris (F355, 360 Modena).
My car wouldn't be outclassed badly on a track by a new M3, and depending on whos driving what car I have a pretty good chance of taking a new M3.
Yeah, now you're talking M5.. and even more expensive car! And I'm betting the M5 is worse on a track than the M3 BECAUSE of the overall weight of the M5. While it does have over 400 net horsepower (as I recall), it also weighs in the realm of 4000lbs, right? I can be wrong here - I don't keep up on my BMWs.
No, Americans are not all about straight line. I do have a "straight line," car, and it's tons of fun to cruise around in.. but I find my Firebird far more enjoying when I'm driving hard. It's well an extremely well balanced car. The "straight line car," is a 1967 LeMans, which the 455 came out of to go back into the Formula until I build a 400cuin engine for it. It doesn't handle BAD (that also got polyurethane bushings, Trans Am spindles for revised suspension geometry, Trans Am swaybar, and some other fun stuff).. but it's not like my err "M3 killer." 🙂
Intel does have something on AMD: their video encoding and hyperthreading. AMDs FPU is FAR better than Intels. Motherboard doesn't make a whole lot of difference.. the FSB is dependent on the CPU. When Athlons were maturing in Socket 462 form, you could get an "inbetween" chipset so you could still use SDRAM.. these were pretty crappy chipsets, meant for a consumer that couldn't afford to upgrade their RAM etc along with their CPU, and their price and performance reflected that. In that case, would it be worth it to you if you did video encoding 20% of the time spent on the PC, and the Intel did it 20% faster.. but cost 200% more?
Again, we're back to.. do you think chip amps sound bad? How many have you listened to? I'm no audio engineer, but I do trust my ears! These are NOT horrible pieces of equipments, they're not childs play toys.. they work, they sound good. I'm not going to say that they're the best amps in the world.. but what's wrong with liking them?
Are people miffed because someones chipamp sounded as good as their discrete amp, but it only took the chipamp builder 25% of the money for the amp (excluding PSU) and 10% of the time to build/design it? 🙂
Kinda reminds me about some guy with a Porsche who I smoked on some windy roads after he talked a whole lot of crap. Then he started talking about how his car was better just because it said Porsche on it. I still didn't understand the logic there, but some people are just weird like that. They have to justify why they went ahead and bought something for way more money that didn't perform a lot better, or even as good as something cheaper and seemed a weaker design (ie my leaf sprung solid live axle in a 26 year old car with a 50 year old engine design with a carbereutor.. that car with all of its "inherent design flaws," happened to kill his "refined," Porsche).
Statements like that (the first one) mean diddly. So you know for a fact that ALL measurements are meaningless? At some point all amps you have bought or built have involved some sort of measurement somewhere in their creation, no matter how much you may protest. I consider an objective listenting trial to be a measurement. So if you're never allowed to listen to an amp because that would mean "diddly" then it defeats the purpose of having the amp in the first place.DrG said:
I know that's a fairly mad line of reasoning, but no more so than valuing prices and brands above performance - certain brands of resistor, or third-hand conjecture about some technique, and drawing conclusions pretty much entirely from that. These issues are usually more complex than they at first appear, so you're missing information. It's only human to tend to focus on minor things: I dislike live rear axles on principle, but if I had to make an objective decision between upgrading from an optimally set up live rear and gaining an extra 100 hp I know which way I'd go. That's why "science" was set up. It still relies on conjecture and opinion, but attempts to balance with the right amount of objectivity.
A well known rule of thumb is that the retail price of mass manufactured electronics goods is 8 times cost to manufacture. Another rule of thumb is that "you get what you pay for". Work that one out for yourself.
So back to THD - well all know it is an essentially meanlingless measurement, which exactly what I was going on about in my article above. Anybody talking about valve amps or increasing levels of NFB will be quick to tell you that the "harmonic structure" is more important than THD. Measured in this way, the SE valve amp measures as beautifully as it sounds. I wouldn't have expected in a million years that the National GC chips measure similarly, but they do. They are VASTLY different from most other amp chips (this came as a bit of a surprise to me). While this artificial measurement is obviously not the cause of the good sound, it does help explain (very strongly) why these "mad Gaincloners" could have a point.
Dr G:
Have you actually tried the 3875 chip? I suspect not.
I gave you a break a while back when you said what chips you have used. They weren't the oldest around, but they weren't one of the NatSem LM Overture series. You really need to try one from this series because the general opinion is that they are something special. They are BETTER than about any other chip amp. The whole chip amp thing is based on this one series IMHO
and to have an opinion without hearing the best is really just being ignorant.
It's been about 6 months
It seems like you could use some of the energy you devote to this thread to spend one evening making a state of the art gainclone. I think you owe that to people that bother reading your long arguments. If you aren't interested in trying a decent chip amp ,then I think it proves that you really don't have any interest in good sound- mostly you like to hear yourself talk.
Of course it is a great loss that people can't play around with circuit changes using chips, but we've been through that before.
Have you actually tried the 3875 chip? I suspect not.
I gave you a break a while back when you said what chips you have used. They weren't the oldest around, but they weren't one of the NatSem LM Overture series. You really need to try one from this series because the general opinion is that they are something special. They are BETTER than about any other chip amp. The whole chip amp thing is based on this one series IMHO
and to have an opinion without hearing the best is really just being ignorant.
It's been about 6 months
It seems like you could use some of the energy you devote to this thread to spend one evening making a state of the art gainclone. I think you owe that to people that bother reading your long arguments. If you aren't interested in trying a decent chip amp ,then I think it proves that you really don't have any interest in good sound- mostly you like to hear yourself talk.
Of course it is a great loss that people can't play around with circuit changes using chips, but we've been through that before.
What I know is that if something sounds excellent and compares favourably then no measurements are likely to make me change my mind. BTW have you ever taken a look at THD/IMD measurements for loudspeakers? Kinda makes a moot point of amplifier performance...
Measurements are repeatable objective observations, by definition. A listening test can never be this I'm afraid.
I think I said exactly this months ago on this thread. If you use your own logic here then paying a few $ for an LM chip must mean it will inherently be an under-achiever... Somehow I don't think this is the point you inteneded to convey, right? Price vs. performance is a tendency but not an absolute. I don't believe price of an LM chip is the reason they sound average to my ears, per se.
Does the 3886 count? Or the TDA7294...? Assumptions such as yours are just as much a manifestation of ignorance, wouldn't you agree Variac?
I've spent the energy as you should know by now, and consider it essentially wasted. Spending budget time and resources by building an inexpensive clone in one evening may be a great way to enter DIY but I have achieved subjectively superior results with hybrid systems. And cost/effort notwithstanding also far more rewarding.
Just because I don't subscribe to the clone hysteria does not mean I cannot appreciate good sound, Variac. Neither am I the only forum member to have mediocre results with clones. So if you cannot deal with my "long arguments" which do not sing the praises of gainclones, then may I invite you to improve the quality of your life infinitely by not reading them. Or do you mostly like to hear yourself insulting others, "respectable social guy"?
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