In the USA JBL 2226 drivers in good shape are almost always available on the used market for about $150. I would go that way rather than any new Faital/B&C/18Sound/etc. 15" diver.
Not that I have anything against the abovementioned makes - they make fine drivers. It's just that the 2226 is a really good driver and their low price on the used market is simply reflective of how many JBL has made over time.
Not that I have anything against the abovementioned makes - they make fine drivers. It's just that the 2226 is a really good driver and their low price on the used market is simply reflective of how many JBL has made over time.
I think that I mentioned politics in a rather benign manner. Not to mention that it comprised, perhaps, 5% of the post. But I am in general in agreement that we can live without politics here.
That said, you ignored all the rest of the post. Do you disagree with the marginal tax rate, sales tax, harsh winter, and lousy roads part? That is all objectively correct. The moribund economy is, perhaps, arguable depending on what industry one is in. But it is generally correct. I think the food quality in inarguable. Wine variety availability is not as good as in the USA, however. But much better food to be had than almost any city in the USA (possible exceptions of New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco - of course, those cities have their problems too ;-)
hweb I'm saddened that you didn't feel welcome in Qc. My bro loves Vancouver, you are happy in New England and I love Mtl. Complaints about roads, taxes, etc are made in every province and state. I wish you the best and the same for myself. Back to audio, I bought horn plans from Joseph Crowe for my next project.
@jazzfan
Jospeh Crowe is 3D printed horns, possibly precision CNCed that will likely cost about as much as all the drivers of the Asathor to produce in nice quality and finish, at least here in Italy. Those biradial horns are for the TAD 2001 compression drivers, which here in Europe, just looked at list price is €4000 for the compression drivers! You can get a beat up broken pair on ebay for $800 if you can repair and replace wiring and the parts or €2900 for a good used pair.
TD 2001 are superb, have heard them in some Living Voice speakers. Those are some serious drive units, or are you getting the horns made for other drivers? Quite a different project than the Asathor those are some real (and really heavy
) High End pieces of equipment and can even play well in the price no objective category of high end horn speakers. Remind me of a larger version of the Visaton TL16H super tweeters optically
Anyway the Joseph Crowe Onken cabinet horn build looks interesting though. Utilizing the Eminence Kappa Pro-15LF-2 driver, so a bit of an odd combination 200€ bass driver each with a €2000 each compression driver, a several hundred € (at least here in Italy, 3d printing or precision CNC cabinet in up to 48mm baltic birch is expensive) and quite complex but good Onken cabinet that will also require CNCing or quite good carpentry skills. If I were going that way I would replace the Eminence with a Altec 416, 515 or D 130 JBL to get a modern A7 Hiagra style, but then you'll need a new crossover as well. Then I am sure Joseph Crowe will not skimp on the crossover, so €1000++ crossover I assume with Copper Foil Caps, new this is a build that makes a Troels TL1 Level 1 look quite inexpensive,plus that will give you 30khz-24hz 18" +10" 4way and biamping for the money.
The difficulty will be integrating the horn and the 15" driver if you go your own way and why the Asathor build is interesting (for the budget and work saved) since it does that and in a ca. 600€ build, versus the JC 15" Onken biradial horn for likely more than 7000€. If you are looking at spending this much a TL1 4 way or a VOTT for ca. €3500 plus upgraded crossover, onken cabinet and super tweeter would be my choices.
Regarding Canada or any other place: I see no problem in the discussion of places, just as audio equipment its an assessment based on personal experience, personal preferences and some measurements/objectively observable situations, its not politics, religion or economics and therefore acceptable in polite company and for dinner conversations. What is acceptable for polite dinner conversation should be acceptable here IMO Rese has done a good job of not having the discussion get nasty or attacking as often happens for various camps or causes, quickly.
Noone meant to offend anyone and every place has pro's and cons, even the best place in the world to live in, Italy Just kidding, beautiful but with a ton of problems, but for me the place I want to live in, but nothing anyone can say would offend me, its just an opinion combined with a personal experiences and probably a whole lot of negative statistics, cannot offend unless it becomes insulting IMO, or if someone thinks theirs is the best place in the world for all people.
Anyway cool builds on Joseph Crowe website, will be curious how you like them and if you will use his crossovers or design something yourself.
Cheers
W
Jospeh Crowe is 3D printed horns, possibly precision CNCed that will likely cost about as much as all the drivers of the Asathor to produce in nice quality and finish, at least here in Italy. Those biradial horns are for the TAD 2001 compression drivers, which here in Europe, just looked at list price is €4000 for the compression drivers! You can get a beat up broken pair on ebay for $800 if you can repair and replace wiring and the parts or €2900 for a good used pair.
TD 2001 are superb, have heard them in some Living Voice speakers. Those are some serious drive units, or are you getting the horns made for other drivers? Quite a different project than the Asathor those are some real (and really heavy
) High End pieces of equipment and can even play well in the price no objective category of high end horn speakers. Remind me of a larger version of the Visaton TL16H super tweeters optically Anyway the Joseph Crowe Onken cabinet horn build looks interesting though. Utilizing the Eminence Kappa Pro-15LF-2 driver, so a bit of an odd combination 200€ bass driver each with a €2000 each compression driver, a several hundred € (at least here in Italy, 3d printing or precision CNC cabinet in up to 48mm baltic birch is expensive) and quite complex but good Onken cabinet that will also require CNCing or quite good carpentry skills. If I were going that way I would replace the Eminence with a Altec 416, 515 or D 130 JBL to get a modern A7 Hiagra style, but then you'll need a new crossover as well. Then I am sure Joseph Crowe will not skimp on the crossover, so €1000++ crossover I assume with Copper Foil Caps, new this is a build that makes a Troels TL1 Level 1 look quite inexpensive,plus that will give you 30khz-24hz 18" +10" 4way and biamping for the money.
The difficulty will be integrating the horn and the 15" driver if you go your own way and why the Asathor build is interesting (for the budget and work saved) since it does that and in a ca. 600€ build, versus the JC 15" Onken biradial horn for likely more than 7000€. If you are looking at spending this much a TL1 4 way or a VOTT for ca. €3500 plus upgraded crossover, onken cabinet and super tweeter would be my choices.
Regarding Canada or any other place: I see no problem in the discussion of places, just as audio equipment its an assessment based on personal experience, personal preferences and some measurements/objectively observable situations, its not politics, religion or economics and therefore acceptable in polite company and for dinner conversations. What is acceptable for polite dinner conversation should be acceptable here
IMO Rese has done a good job of not having the discussion get nasty or attacking as often happens for various camps or causes, quickly.Noone meant to offend anyone and every place has pro's and cons, even the best place in the world to live in, Italy
Just kidding, beautiful but with a ton of problems, but for me the place I want to live in, but nothing anyone can say would offend me, its just an opinion combined with a personal experiences and probably a whole lot of negative statistics, cannot offend unless it becomes insulting IMO, or if someone thinks theirs is the best place in the world for all people. Anyway cool builds on Joseph Crowe website, will be curious how you like them and if you will use his crossovers or design something yourself.
Cheers
W
tubeglow49 greetings from la belle province. The plan I bought from Joseph Crowe is the Sabourin horn for a 4" full range driver. Designed to be cut on a table saw from baltic birch which is readily available and cheap here in Montréal. I'm using a Klark-Teknik DN 410 parametric eq now on a Fane 15" full range and will use it for the horn as well since it will play down to 300 hz. Bass is done with a minidsp.
@tubeglow49
I can't speak to problems Italy may, or may not have (though I've been warned about the mail service) but any country that is the home to Ferrari, Ducati, Gaggia and Freud (saw blades, not psychoanalysis) has to be a fine place to live. Now, to set the record straight, I own neither a Ferrari (our pot holes would wreck one) or a Ducatti, but I do a have a Gaggia and only buy Freud saw blades.
I can't speak to problems Italy may, or may not have (though I've been warned about the mail service) but any country that is the home to Ferrari, Ducati, Gaggia and Freud (saw blades, not psychoanalysis) has to be a fine place to live. Now, to set the record straight, I own neither a Ferrari (our pot holes would wreck one) or a Ducatti, but I do a have a Gaggia and only buy Freud saw blades.
The logistics of sourcing and cutting lumber to build a rather large cabinet seem a bit out of my reach at this time.
What performance caveats should I consider using a flat-pack subwoofer enclosure and mounting the horn on top? I do kind of like that utilitarian look.
Denovo Audio Knock-Down MDF 3.0 cu. ft. Cubic Foot Subwoofer Cabinet
Denovo Audio Sledge M4-15s Baltic Birch 4.0cuft Subwoofer Flat-Pack for 15" Subwoofers
What performance caveats should I consider using a flat-pack subwoofer enclosure and mounting the horn on top? I do kind of like that utilitarian look.
Denovo Audio Knock-Down MDF 3.0 cu. ft. Cubic Foot Subwoofer Cabinet
Denovo Audio Sledge M4-15s Baltic Birch 4.0cuft Subwoofer Flat-Pack for 15" Subwoofers
@Jazzfan
Greetings, Ok I was assuming you were building something similar to the Asathor, CD + 15" that you see on the joseph crowe site. I guess it kind of is
Personally not a hige fan of fullrange drivers, not even the Voxativs due to the whizzy highs, however exceptional their midranges are. However the Fostex FE108EZ is a nice driver, also good off axis and sound pleasant with tubes or good pure Class A, e.g. First Watt, letting the amp shine. Obviously rollof in the highs but likely not much worse than the Asathor. Curious to hear your opinions on mounting it in a forward firing horn.
They usually make cute slim speakers for quiet listening (bass that will not bother any neighbor), although looking at the measurements seems like they start rolling off at around 700hz.
Fostex FE-108 Sigma Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range
I am not understanding the setup/plan:
"I'm using a Klark-Teknik DN 410 parametric eq now on a Fane 15" full range and will use it for the horn as well since it will play down to 300 hz. Bass is done with a minidsp."
You will have the JC horn for the Fostex FE108EZ, which is basically a 3" speaker (with very limited bass, basically similar to a high efficiency large dome tweeter) and then you will add the Fane 15" fullrange as a bass module without the horn, or are you somehow also building a back firing horn for that? Or is JC providing a combination horn for the Fostex and Fane?
I also don't understand the 300hz crossover point, looking at the DS that is pretty high for the Fostex it has -6 or7 db at 300hz. I quess with DSP and equalizing it should all be possible, but aren't you defeating the main purpose of the full range drivers in eliminating (most) anything between driver and amp, as well as taking away the time alignment/point source, and/or potentially lowering sensitivity?
Nelson Pass likes the Fostex high efficiency drivers because they work well with his low power amps, due to high sensitivity (and I assume nothing in the way.)
No experience with the Fane 15" fullrange or much Fane in general. Also no experience integrating two full range drivers, looks interesting just not what I would do, due to my bias and ignorance Could be great, just cannot say.
Almost everyone I know who is into full range drivers doesn't like DSP (except for dipole subs or subs), but with this combination starting with DSP will likely be the way to go, at first. Good luck on that build and the cross over, although some don't believe in time aligning the speakers physically this will likely help here.
What amp are you using?
The horn plans on the joseph crowe site look doable and inexpensive, thanks for clearing that up, that is good stuff to know.
Cheers
Greetings, Ok I was assuming you were building something similar to the Asathor, CD + 15" that you see on the joseph crowe site. I guess it kind of is
Personally not a hige fan of fullrange drivers, not even the Voxativs due to the whizzy highs, however exceptional their midranges are. However the Fostex FE108EZ is a nice driver, also good off axis and sound pleasant with tubes or good pure Class A, e.g. First Watt, letting the amp shine. Obviously rollof in the highs but likely not much worse than the Asathor. Curious to hear your opinions on mounting it in a forward firing horn.
They usually make cute slim speakers for quiet listening (bass that will not bother any neighbor
), although looking at the measurements seems like they start rolling off at around 700hz. Fostex FE-108 Sigma Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range
I am not understanding the setup/plan:
"I'm using a Klark-Teknik DN 410 parametric eq now on a Fane 15" full range and will use it for the horn as well since it will play down to 300 hz. Bass is done with a minidsp."
You will have the JC horn for the Fostex FE108EZ, which is basically a 3" speaker (with very limited bass, basically similar to a high efficiency large dome tweeter) and then you will add the Fane 15" fullrange as a bass module without the horn, or are you somehow also building a back firing horn for that? Or is JC providing a combination horn for the Fostex and Fane?
I also don't understand the 300hz crossover point, looking at the DS that is pretty high for the Fostex it has -6 or7 db at 300hz. I quess with DSP and equalizing it should all be possible, but aren't you defeating the main purpose of the full range drivers in eliminating (most) anything between driver and amp, as well as taking away the time alignment/point source, and/or potentially lowering sensitivity?
Nelson Pass likes the Fostex high efficiency drivers because they work well with his low power amps, due to high sensitivity (and I assume nothing in the way.)
No experience with the Fane 15" fullrange or much Fane in general. Also no experience integrating two full range drivers, looks interesting just not what I would do, due to my bias and ignorance
Could be great, just cannot say.Almost everyone I know who is into full range drivers doesn't like DSP (except for dipole subs or subs), but with this combination starting with DSP will likely be the way to go, at first. Good luck on that build and the cross over, although some don't believe in time aligning the speakers physically this will likely help here.
What amp are you using?
The horn plans on the joseph crowe site look doable and inexpensive, thanks for clearing that up, that is good stuff to know.
Cheers
@jazzfan
Gaggia is used a lot in companies in Germany and outside of Italy to make coffee. Due to lack of funds most Italians actually just use a simple Bialetti Moka Express at home and go to the cafe for a €1.20 capucino and there you could find the Gaggia for professional machines. Nice machines, but same as with the Freud blades they are mostly made for export. Much easier to buy in Germany than in a normal hardware store.
Italians tend to spend all their money on life experiences e.g. food, drink, clothing/women, friends, music, basically what Germans would call frivilous expenses But man do they know how to enjoy life with little.
The things the Italians produce so well, do not just work they kind of give a feeling "emozione" and that "feeling" (apart from the culture, beauty) is why you stay regardless of the rest (bureaucracy, cost, punctuality, traffic, mail, inefficiencies, noise, chaos, laisez-faire attitudes, etc.)
They have been the center of civilization for 2000 plus years and know what is important in life, the living and take nothing too seriously, (also this shall pass attitude) Althoug the north is quite less relaxed (to put it mildly) and more efficient one could say. I've been in a lot of places, but for me this is what I compromised on, although I would really like to visit Canada again, its been a long time and with hardcore lockdowns travelling seems so nice.
Overall/in general Canadians are some of the nicest and most polite people wherever you go, and the nature! Very organized, and reliable without being, let's say too "germanic" Nice place to live, safe, good economy, healthy, great for families,, Everyone has to know what they like, need and want and where they want to visit
Cheers
W
Gaggia is used a lot in companies in Germany and outside of Italy to make coffee. Due to lack of funds most Italians actually just use a simple Bialetti Moka Express at home and go to the cafe for a €1.20 capucino and there you could find the Gaggia for professional machines. Nice machines, but same as with the Freud blades they are mostly made for export. Much easier to buy in Germany than in a normal hardware store.
Italians tend to spend all their money on life experiences e.g. food, drink, clothing/women, friends, music, basically what Germans would call frivilous expenses
But man do they know how to enjoy life with little.The things the Italians produce so well, do not just work they kind of give a feeling "emozione" and that "feeling" (apart from the culture, beauty) is why you stay regardless of the rest (bureaucracy, cost, punctuality, traffic, mail, inefficiencies, noise, chaos, laisez-faire attitudes, etc.)
They have been the center of civilization for 2000 plus years and know what is important in life, the living
and take nothing too seriously, (also this shall pass attitude) Althoug the north is quite less relaxed (to put it mildly) and more efficient one could say. I've been in a lot of places, but for me this is what I compromised on, although I would really like to visit Canada again, its been a long time and with hardcore lockdowns travelling seems so nice. Overall/in general Canadians are some of the nicest and most polite people wherever you go, and the nature! Very organized, and reliable without being, let's say too "germanic"
Nice place to live, safe, good economy, healthy, great for families,, Everyone has to know what they like, need and want and where they want to visitCheers
W
@ultrachrome
Quote form Troels that applies to all developed crossovers
Crossovers
"If you change front panel dimensions, actual drivers, placement of drivers and cabinet tilt in the constructions shown on these pages, you need a new crossover, and I can't help. The crossover will no longer work as intended"
If you can find something that is 44 cm wide and the same height with the drivers in the same place Rese's crossover will work (depth does not matter) else you will need another crossover. Sorry.
Quote form Troels that applies to all developed crossovers
Crossovers
"If you change front panel dimensions, actual drivers, placement of drivers and cabinet tilt in the constructions shown on these pages, you need a new crossover, and I can't help. The crossover will no longer work as intended"
If you can find something that is 44 cm wide and the same height with the drivers in the same place Rese's crossover will work (depth does not matter) else you will need another crossover. Sorry.
I will replace the Fane 15" full range with the Crowe horn. I have a Fane 15" bass driver on an OB with the full range. With the parametric I use 1 band to shelve down the bass on the FR so it mostly rolls off naturally and the 4 others for eq. Main amp is a Benchmark AHB2, old Amcron for the bass.
I played with Edge and with only the width changed the impact on response seemed minimal.
With a stand elevating the enclosure and a false front under and above the driver locations should remain unaffected. So only the width would be increased.
It would be nice to find a workaround that would work with the predetermined crossover but I also have DSP crossovers that I can employ.
Attachments
Generally speaking, you should stick to the plan, especially when it comes to the width of the cabinet. With a box as wide as the Asathor, however, the 5cm / 2inch more are not dramatic. You can see that in the edge simulation. Deviations of less than 0.5dB are negligible. So you can use one of the two finished cabinets. In the second, the cutout is a bit large and the case itself is larger than it should be, so I would take the first one.
This would fit very well:
Denovo Audio 3.0cuft subwoofer flat pack
Unfortunately, it is no longer available.
Is there no cutting service in the US? In Germany, this is done by every hardware store or even companies that deliver ready-cut parts online.
This would fit very well:
Denovo Audio 3.0cuft subwoofer flat pack
Unfortunately, it is no longer available.
Is there no cutting service in the US? In Germany, this is done by every hardware store or even companies that deliver ready-cut parts online.
Raven made me aware that not all x-over parts are available in US. I have therefore adapted the x-over plan, taking into account the parts available at parts express.
For the coils I have given the AWG and type. Caps are foils such as these from Dayton:
Dayton Audio DMPC-6.8 6.8uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Except for the caps, which I marked in red. These are electrolytic caps like this one:
500uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor
Resistors all with at least 10 watts.
The x-over components are unfortunately relatively expensive in the US. Maybe there are cheaper parts in other shops. Then please make sure that the coil and resistor, which I have marked in blue, together have a resistance of 5 ohms (+ -0.5 ohms).
In the example of my plan, the coil is 0.4 ohms and the resistor is 4.7 ohms. All together 5.1 ohms - fits. If you find a cheaper coil with e.g. 1.4 ohms, then please adjust the resistance accordingly to 3.7 or 3.3 ohms.
For the coils I have given the AWG and type. Caps are foils such as these from Dayton:
Dayton Audio DMPC-6.8 6.8uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Except for the caps, which I marked in red. These are electrolytic caps like this one:
500uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor
Resistors all with at least 10 watts.
The x-over components are unfortunately relatively expensive in the US. Maybe there are cheaper parts in other shops. Then please make sure that the coil and resistor, which I have marked in blue, together have a resistance of 5 ohms (+ -0.5 ohms).
In the example of my plan, the coil is 0.4 ohms and the resistor is 4.7 ohms. All together 5.1 ohms - fits. If you find a cheaper coil with e.g. 1.4 ohms, then please adjust the resistance accordingly to 3.7 or 3.3 ohms.
Attachments
Thanks for the reply.
I'd love to find such a service. Local stores that stock sheet goods usually have a big panel saw which is either broken or lacks the personnel to operate it.
I'll check with some of the specialty suppliers.
Ah OK that is more clear. Running one of the lowest distortion amps ever made, the Benchmark AHB2, using dual fullrange seemed a bit weird. Full range is always a big compromise to get everything in one package, usually with massively added distortion, especially if you compare it to a compression driver. Having < 0.0003 % THD+N at full rated power, 20 Hz to 20 kHz and then two full range could be similar to having a Porsche engine in a minivan a bit
Give that amp the drivers it needs. Its a €3K+ amp, so don't skimp on the drivers and crossover to get the best out of it.Those amps are especially good with good foils, compression drivers, ceramics, diamond/beryllium or very good softdomes (e.g. SS Elipticors, SBA) and especially magnetostatics and Co, e.g. Quads and shines with hard to drive speakers. Personally I wouldn't use any equalization and dsp only for the bass, preferably with a seperate midrange driver. Very clean amp excelling in transparancy and clarity, it would almost be a shame to add distortion via equalizing or high distortion drivers.
The CD or full range and low mass drivers usually sound nice with the desirable distortion of tubes or class A.
Curious how you will like the combo you are building. Had some clients that used them with Ceramic drivers in 2018 and my former boss uses them for high clarity setups as monoblocks, but at times its hard to get the amp, especially in the UK. Benchmark is brilliant for classic music and "analytic" listening. Myex bosses main problem with them was their looks for high end installs, but brilliant tucked away.
Keep us posted on your build and what you end up with, surely intersting. As usual I am biased against equalization and dsp, so take my comment as is. All tastes are different and my know how with fullrange is limited, although I did own some Lothers a while back and I admit I like a bit of the "right" distortion in an amp with them at times. Personally often the Benchmark equipment reminds me a bit too much of studio setups, but that is just me.
Cheers
Yes, that is very important, otherwise the signals from the tweeter and woofer will be out of phase. The result would be a deep dip on the x-over frequency.
The cuts in the hardware store are not always great either, but at least this service is available here. The local carpenters also do this, perhaps at higher prices, but with very good quality - both in terms of the cuts and the wood.
@ultrachrome
Not sure where you live, but there are usually a lot reasonable CNC services available in the US. Check around town and if you can do a pick up. Else ask in a real lumber yard or as Rese said check with your local carpenter. Another good place in the US is kitchen custom countertop places. They almost always have CNC machines on site and you can ask them to cut MDF for you usually at very low costs since they have the machines idling most of the time. Most of the time they will have MDF but sometimes its worth it to bring your own. Friends of mine swear by the kitchen countertop places, but it will require a visit. Thier CNC machines are usually underused and good enough for speaker building.
You can use Sketch Up 2017 (last free version) and then bring them the designs/cut lists. Been a while but that feature should still be available.
Or get a plunge saw and guide and build your own. Very easy build here. Router, drill and plunge circular saw with guides is all that will be needed.
Cheers
Not sure where you live, but there are usually a lot reasonable CNC services available in the US. Check around town and if you can do a pick up. Else ask in a real lumber yard or as Rese said check with your local carpenter. Another good place in the US is kitchen custom countertop places. They almost always have CNC machines on site and you can ask them to cut MDF for you usually at very low costs since they have the machines idling most of the time. Most of the time they will have MDF but sometimes its worth it to bring your own. Friends of mine swear by the kitchen countertop places, but it will require a visit. Thier CNC machines are usually underused and good enough for speaker building.
You can use Sketch Up 2017 (last free version) and then bring them the designs/cut lists. Been a while but that feature should still be available.
Or get a plunge saw and guide and build your own. Very easy build here. Router, drill and plunge circular saw with guides is all that will be needed.
Cheers