I plan to have a 19" rack on board.
Amps...A second hand 500-1000 watt Crown was my first choice, not too old save the capacitors have not lost their mojo.
SO will there be one set of subs to dance on and then the main bar houses the rest of the gear?
How is this all able to move?
Is it like a parade car?
I saw the renderings but kept thinking I would fall off the subs if I was dancing on that. And then I didnt see a car so I wondered if it was like a trailer and just got pulled along or something. Curious is all.
I wish we had a Peavey dealer here in OZ that had good pricing. Nobody I knows sells them and if they did they would probably be too expensive. Yamaha is another brand that has very efficient designs but they dont have enough power for me. So that leaves Behringer, Crown and QSC. Behringer tends to win because of value. I dont have one yet but will probably be looking at getting one.
I for now just have some Crest Pro 7200's that I use for everything. So no experience with them yet.
How is this all able to move?
Is it like a parade car?
I saw the renderings but kept thinking I would fall off the subs if I was dancing on that. And then I didnt see a car so I wondered if it was like a trailer and just got pulled along or something. Curious is all.
I wish we had a Peavey dealer here in OZ that had good pricing. Nobody I knows sells them and if they did they would probably be too expensive. Yamaha is another brand that has very efficient designs but they dont have enough power for me. So that leaves Behringer, Crown and QSC. Behringer tends to win because of value. I dont have one yet but will probably be looking at getting one.
I for now just have some Crest Pro 7200's that I use for everything. So no experience with them yet.
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At the moment we are going to build ONE tapped horn per side, and stand it upright.
Top end is currently a pair of powered two ways, upgrade after the sub project.
Propulsion is an electric vehicle, similar to a pallet mover. It's a mobile sound system and bar used at festivals, that is decorated like a desert island.
A bit like that.
Top end is currently a pair of powered two ways, upgrade after the sub project.
Propulsion is an electric vehicle, similar to a pallet mover. It's a mobile sound system and bar used at festivals, that is decorated like a desert island.
A bit like that.
here is a video, trying to sell the idea to the crew.
The LED system is built, and gear will be house in the Tiki Bar in the middle.
CocoPocoLoco Artcar Tropical Island on Vimeo
The LED system is built, and gear will be house in the Tiki Bar in the middle.
CocoPocoLoco Artcar Tropical Island on Vimeo
Sounds awesome wish I could help build it with you. Sounds like a fun project.
Great video.
Great video.
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Imagine the main subframe's for the cars built from 50x80mm 3mm wall steel. Each car is rated to 2 tonnes I believe. Fin to confirm details.
People are not allowed to stand on the dance carts while in transit. I have danced on model 1 and it was awesome looking over the crowd with drinks in hand. If you do fall off you just land on the crowd around you and go for a surf ;P
People are not allowed to stand on the dance carts while in transit. I have danced on model 1 and it was awesome looking over the crowd with drinks in hand. If you do fall off you just land on the crowd around you and go for a surf ;P
THose specs are spot on Dean.
The chassis was designed and built by an Formula One engineer who is part of our crew. Heavily over spec'd.
The wheels are the weakest part, rated to 350 kilo each, but with a large safety margin so even with a full carload of people on board its still well within safety margins.
BUDGET: What generally happens is someone comes up with an idea, and works out the cost, then a fundraiser is setup to pay for it.
Money isn't so much the issue, the small space we have is.
My most ideal top end would be two Danley SM60's per side. Not huge SPL, but enough for a 300 person party at close range.
I really want to build/use something elegant. One idea was to use the PSH-144s, modified for higher SPL. This would however leave a bit of a hole in the mid-bass.
The Robot Heart Mid-High horns would be perfect.
Made by Know:Audio in San Francisco with Mark Wayne. I asked about getting some more made, but they lost the moulds. It may be possible for the original maker to make some more...if we can entice him out of retirement!
But I think given the space limitations, we might have to resort to direct radiation.
Hmmmm.... Chris661 mentioned a palm tree line array a while back. I'm thinking if we wanted to create something that really integrates with the theme it could be a good idea.
Not hard to build, just finding the right drivers in Aus is a pita as usual.
Basic recipe would be 8 to 10" poly pipe loaded with 10 or more 5 or 6" drivers. Make it two metres or more tall, paint like a palm tree and your gold. Would probably wrap in a fine steel mesh grill for protection and paint that too.
We could hang a conical tweeter horn(s) from the top or get a bit wierd and and try a horn loaded omni tweeter, B&O style.
Just thinking out loud.....
Not hard to build, just finding the right drivers in Aus is a pita as usual.
Basic recipe would be 8 to 10" poly pipe loaded with 10 or more 5 or 6" drivers. Make it two metres or more tall, paint like a palm tree and your gold. Would probably wrap in a fine steel mesh grill for protection and paint that too.
We could hang a conical tweeter horn(s) from the top or get a bit wierd and and try a horn loaded omni tweeter, B&O style.
Just thinking out loud.....
Sounds nice if you didn't have the power limitation. Or, there's all kinds of good ways to use the round tree trunks to absorb the back-wave from drivers.
You sure don't want to array Newform ribbons (planar dynamics) or smaller genuine ribbons. Horns will be far more efficient. For that matter, horns will be far more efficient than any direct-radiating line array of conventional drivers. For the criteria first described, better stick with horns. I use planar dynamic vertical lines outdoors, and I use 20-foot ribbons. I put 7200 watts into them just for midrange, and they're not loud; synergy horns might get away with a tenth of that. Though I must admit, line arrays would make the bar approachable without ear damage as only the ones in-line with your ear are full-volume when very very near (due to radiation pattern and interference) yet because they radiate a cylindrical wavefront the volume drops linearly with distance, so they can be heard pleasantly at a surprising long distance. But they don't really get dancing-loud for a crowd outdoors without a lot of power.
You sure don't want to array Newform ribbons (planar dynamics) or smaller genuine ribbons. Horns will be far more efficient. For that matter, horns will be far more efficient than any direct-radiating line array of conventional drivers. For the criteria first described, better stick with horns. I use planar dynamic vertical lines outdoors, and I use 20-foot ribbons. I put 7200 watts into them just for midrange, and they're not loud; synergy horns might get away with a tenth of that. Though I must admit, line arrays would make the bar approachable without ear damage as only the ones in-line with your ear are full-volume when very very near (due to radiation pattern and interference) yet because they radiate a cylindrical wavefront the volume drops linearly with distance, so they can be heard pleasantly at a surprising long distance. But they don't really get dancing-loud for a crowd outdoors without a lot of power.
Just saw this.
And I just realized I am getting a bit of a tasty tax return this year. So I think I am going to go with a B&C 18SW115 or 18Sound 18WL2500.
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I'm pretty much sold on this idea. I feel a new OCD obsession forming.
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You could make the trees transmission line enclosures. But...I still don't see any way 10 6" drivers will cover much or be very efficient. I used to use 128 Bose drivers on each side, powered by about 2000 watts a side, and it needed supplemental subs. The brand carries a lot of baggage these days, but rent a pair of Bose L1 model 2, and see whether 24 small drivers in a line array on each side, with a stacked pair of subs, will meet your needs or not. But...those have built-in biamped power amps and DSP to make them really work; and Bose doesn't release meaningful specs, which is just plain weird if they claim to be professional. In general, the tree line arrays would be very cool in disguise, and structurally sound, but reduce your coverage and really drastically increase your power needs.
Hey cyclecamper and thanks for the input.
If we use 6" they would only cover from approx 100hz to 1.5k then cross to a horn loaded compression tweeter with the TH18 taking care of the bottom end. The project does have an upgrade future as funds, interest allow.
We are just spit balling ideas now to see what sticks.
I'll need to sim some drivers to look at possible SPL with the approx 1000 watts available for a line array.
I was a bit confused re your comments on ribbons. Your suggesting no ribbons are viable?
If we use 6" they would only cover from approx 100hz to 1.5k then cross to a horn loaded compression tweeter with the TH18 taking care of the bottom end. The project does have an upgrade future as funds, interest allow.
We are just spit balling ideas now to see what sticks.
I'll need to sim some drivers to look at possible SPL with the approx 1000 watts available for a line array.
I was a bit confused re your comments on ribbons. Your suggesting no ribbons are viable?
Word from 18Sound is that they dont go into production until November!
The 2400 is available though.
I'm suggesting neither ribbons nor planar dynamics are good choices with limited power. Been there, wasn't easy, still have the amp stacks.
Only 100 people? Or more like 500? Then the Bose L1 model 2 would suffice, as they claim 500. How many DB??? Well: where, in what pattern...do YOU want how many? To listen or dance? I'm a big advocate of inefficient speakers, but not for mobile sound with low power available. A pair of synergy horns directing the output radiation pattern instead of inefficient pattern control via interference might require 1/100 the power for the same output or handle thousands of people on the same power, a really huge difference compared to small sealed enclosures. So you have to weigh horn efficiency against long line cylindrical wavefront radation that drops off at a lower rate to stay strong over long distances. If you really want to do that, consider at least twenty drivers a side IMHO and a line long enough to not become a point at a distance; all the line problems occur near the ends LOL. Of course, that also radiates considerable power to mostly only the birds.
Lots of thoughts:
Anything you can do to locate the generator much farther away and putting it inside a really good box or inside a van with the exhaust vented out etc., maybe with a proper muffler labyrinth at the air intake end of the box and another muffler labyrinth at the exhaust end will pay huge rewards in reducing your volume requirements and pay huge dividends in sound quality and pleasant atmosphere. Cool and ventilate with a big low-speed squirrel cage furnace-type air handler running at very low speed. Consider maybe mounting a generator box high above the hood of the tow vehicle, with a long trailer tongue to the hitch, or use even more trailers and make all front wheels steer controlled by the tongue and put a lead trailer or two between the tow vehicle and the three active cars...that could hold all kinds of supplies, but better yet if properly designed the following cars will each turn as each approaches the same corner, allowing you surprising maneuverability in tight turns with an incredibly long vehicle, and yet not require multiple steering wheels unless you want them...and LOTS of distance between the show and the generator. Did you ever see the tractor-drawn tram cars at Disneyland that take people to & from the remote parking lots and parking garages? Long trains of cars with a canopy on each, pulled by a disguised tractor; and when it turns, each car's rear hitch extension prevents the next car from turning prematurely; as it approaches the turn, first the tractor turns, but its long rear overhang and hitch swings in the other direction initially, so the next car in the train doesn't cut the corner until it approaches the same turning point along the path, and so on down the line, each car executing the turn only when it reaches nearly the same point. Works really well as long as the tires don't slip and get pulled sideways in sand on a really sharp turn, but impossible to reverse; but you can't reverse your 3-trailer train without de-coupling anyway. Remember to use oversize tires if you want to be on the playa at Burning Man someday.
I use 9 6.5" drivers for mid-bass on each side in a line array in my living room. I put about 2700 a side into them. And IMHO they are excursion-limited trying to go down low enough for most tapped horns to take over. Out doors you'd want twice as many and only get twice as close to what you really want. Look, I'm not a horn guy. But I know when I'm licked, and that's when it comes to efficiency. Nothing comes close to horns. And if you mix horns with line sources, going back to horns for the highs, you have problems with mismatched radiation patterns that sound really odd off-axis, which could be especially relevant if you are moving. You try to compensate with averages and it sounds bad everywhere. If you have line array mids, use line array for highs too IMHO. But you're stuck with figuring out how to package up some all- horn system without the trailers tipping over IMHO; other designs may work but that's the route to real performance. Then again, I've known Danley since he was building horns in high school. Even in frequency bands where you have other options, the watts you save using horns can be used better elsewhere.
Don't forget you're going to need a whole lot of very efficient LED lights too.
I might also mention something we used to do occasionally. We'd get a few really big 3-phase electric motors with multiple v-belts, and drive them as generators from a big diesel engine. A lot cheaper than buying a generator if you can find the parts cheap and have the time and room and skills. Just a thought.
You might look into some of these: Genie Superlift Advantage Manually Operated Material Lift | eBay
You can remove the wheels and weld or bolt them to the trailer beds, and they can raise & lower your synergy horns, or telescope your line arrays, lift your light truss, etc. Well worth every cent.
I kind of like the idea of a long string of trailers, with horns raised in the extreme first and last cars, then pull up and slightly circle the wagons... get it directional and focused for maximum impact.
One other thing: I like line arrays. A lot. Very practical. But...still...a quality point source sounds better; certainly theoretically ideally... or that's my opinion. Plus with horns everything seems effortless, loud at idle, with tons of room for dynamics without damage. Yes, you can fry components in horns, but your ears may go first.
So does it need to play while moving, or just set up in an instant and play when stopped? Can you drive the generator away, like 300 feet the other way?
Only 100 people? Or more like 500? Then the Bose L1 model 2 would suffice, as they claim 500. How many DB??? Well: where, in what pattern...do YOU want how many? To listen or dance? I'm a big advocate of inefficient speakers, but not for mobile sound with low power available. A pair of synergy horns directing the output radiation pattern instead of inefficient pattern control via interference might require 1/100 the power for the same output or handle thousands of people on the same power, a really huge difference compared to small sealed enclosures. So you have to weigh horn efficiency against long line cylindrical wavefront radation that drops off at a lower rate to stay strong over long distances. If you really want to do that, consider at least twenty drivers a side IMHO and a line long enough to not become a point at a distance; all the line problems occur near the ends LOL. Of course, that also radiates considerable power to mostly only the birds.
Lots of thoughts:
Anything you can do to locate the generator much farther away and putting it inside a really good box or inside a van with the exhaust vented out etc., maybe with a proper muffler labyrinth at the air intake end of the box and another muffler labyrinth at the exhaust end will pay huge rewards in reducing your volume requirements and pay huge dividends in sound quality and pleasant atmosphere. Cool and ventilate with a big low-speed squirrel cage furnace-type air handler running at very low speed. Consider maybe mounting a generator box high above the hood of the tow vehicle, with a long trailer tongue to the hitch, or use even more trailers and make all front wheels steer controlled by the tongue and put a lead trailer or two between the tow vehicle and the three active cars...that could hold all kinds of supplies, but better yet if properly designed the following cars will each turn as each approaches the same corner, allowing you surprising maneuverability in tight turns with an incredibly long vehicle, and yet not require multiple steering wheels unless you want them...and LOTS of distance between the show and the generator. Did you ever see the tractor-drawn tram cars at Disneyland that take people to & from the remote parking lots and parking garages? Long trains of cars with a canopy on each, pulled by a disguised tractor; and when it turns, each car's rear hitch extension prevents the next car from turning prematurely; as it approaches the turn, first the tractor turns, but its long rear overhang and hitch swings in the other direction initially, so the next car in the train doesn't cut the corner until it approaches the same turning point along the path, and so on down the line, each car executing the turn only when it reaches nearly the same point. Works really well as long as the tires don't slip and get pulled sideways in sand on a really sharp turn, but impossible to reverse; but you can't reverse your 3-trailer train without de-coupling anyway. Remember to use oversize tires if you want to be on the playa at Burning Man someday.
I use 9 6.5" drivers for mid-bass on each side in a line array in my living room. I put about 2700 a side into them. And IMHO they are excursion-limited trying to go down low enough for most tapped horns to take over. Out doors you'd want twice as many and only get twice as close to what you really want. Look, I'm not a horn guy. But I know when I'm licked, and that's when it comes to efficiency. Nothing comes close to horns. And if you mix horns with line sources, going back to horns for the highs, you have problems with mismatched radiation patterns that sound really odd off-axis, which could be especially relevant if you are moving. You try to compensate with averages and it sounds bad everywhere. If you have line array mids, use line array for highs too IMHO. But you're stuck with figuring out how to package up some all- horn system without the trailers tipping over IMHO; other designs may work but that's the route to real performance. Then again, I've known Danley since he was building horns in high school. Even in frequency bands where you have other options, the watts you save using horns can be used better elsewhere.
Don't forget you're going to need a whole lot of very efficient LED lights too.
I might also mention something we used to do occasionally. We'd get a few really big 3-phase electric motors with multiple v-belts, and drive them as generators from a big diesel engine. A lot cheaper than buying a generator if you can find the parts cheap and have the time and room and skills. Just a thought.
You might look into some of these: Genie Superlift Advantage Manually Operated Material Lift | eBay
You can remove the wheels and weld or bolt them to the trailer beds, and they can raise & lower your synergy horns, or telescope your line arrays, lift your light truss, etc. Well worth every cent.
I kind of like the idea of a long string of trailers, with horns raised in the extreme first and last cars, then pull up and slightly circle the wagons... get it directional and focused for maximum impact.
One other thing: I like line arrays. A lot. Very practical. But...still...a quality point source sounds better; certainly theoretically ideally... or that's my opinion. Plus with horns everything seems effortless, loud at idle, with tons of room for dynamics without damage. Yes, you can fry components in horns, but your ears may go first.
So does it need to play while moving, or just set up in an instant and play when stopped? Can you drive the generator away, like 300 feet the other way?
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I emailed 18 sound before contacting KRIX. 18 Sound got back to me yesterday saying manufacturing starts in November.
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