Because JBL never pitched that. Do you really think they have any reason to care what you do with your cheap speakers?
Barry.
Barry.
Given that at some point the marketing department comes into the picture very much so.
dave
You actually just reinforced my point. rdf equating a one off interesting idea used on a high end speaker with pushing an overpriced, highly questionable, upgrade for cheap speakers makes no sense.
My day job is not in audio, but it is with a small company and involves a moderate amount of laboratory equipment for spectral analysis. You set up multiple QC processes around the hardware, train people that only marginally understand what the tests are for or mean, set up a bunch of spreadsheets to do analysis of spectra for multiple standards to help those people along, and hope to god none of your hardware fails. Because you've built up your processes and data around a known group of equipment, and it's a ton of work to re-do/re-qualify everything with new equipment, train people again, etc., and you often get no return on investment in new hardware. And it's not just the lab techs that have issues with new equipment. Our main PhD is brilliant when it comes to chemistry and quite challenged when it comes to computers and analytical equipment. If I change his hardware I'm gonna do a lot of hand-holding after that.
On top of that you're gonna pay US$50-100k (or more) per device for modern replacements. In our small lab, we have 4 pieces of equipment with those kinds of scenarios going on. Would I like to have a half million dollars' worth of new equipment and talented employees that can run any hardware I plop in front of them? You betcha. Any of that likely to happen? No.
I think those are some of the primary reasons people hold onto old hardware.
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Speak with authority and people will believe you...this is the age of the content creators.
All speaker designs are compromised it's just a question of how and where.
I had a long journey with diy speakers. I basically wanted high end but couldn't afford it, so I went to work... I like to think I learnt a fair amount from the teachings of Toole, Colloms and all along the way. Some that I built were fun, some were terrible, some were OK but none fully satisfied me. Then I heard an inexpensive commercial speaker that stopped the itch to build anything else instantly. The designers had a generous development budget, because they were going to sell lots. They evolved design concepts on a blank page, not from an OEM parts catalogue, and developed thier own software modelling and measurement tools because they felt commercial tools could be improved on. They designed something better that I could never get even vaguely close to, even if if I threw lots of money at it. So for me, design trumps parts budget every time.
All speaker designs are compromised it's just a question of how and where.
I had a long journey with diy speakers. I basically wanted high end but couldn't afford it, so I went to work... I like to think I learnt a fair amount from the teachings of Toole, Colloms and all along the way. Some that I built were fun, some were terrible, some were OK but none fully satisfied me. Then I heard an inexpensive commercial speaker that stopped the itch to build anything else instantly. The designers had a generous development budget, because they were going to sell lots. They evolved design concepts on a blank page, not from an OEM parts catalogue, and developed thier own software modelling and measurement tools because they felt commercial tools could be improved on. They designed something better that I could never get even vaguely close to, even if if I threw lots of money at it. So for me, design trumps parts budget every time.
It was actually a rhetorical question. 😉
But in speaker design you most definitely don't have to spend 20k bucks for equipment
The biggest issue here is to be totally reliant on very old hardware (and software) that is beyond obsolete.
Meaning if that anything goes seriously wrong with that system, you will have a much bigger (and expensive) issue.
(actually one of the companies I did work for, had some major issues with power supplies and harddrives)
Besides that most more modern software is far more capable.
No joke, but the biggest reasons I have come across (not only with audio), is people are just creatures of habit as well as to afraid to change anything. The excuse "never change a winning team" is often being used.
Which almost always just means: "we are to afraid to touch it".
That's a extremely vulnerable place to be in as a company.
A good point that people would only send speakers with which they're not happy for modification; as noted DIY designers have consistently shown, a good crossover can make budget drivers sound good.
I find it interesting that despite the many brickbats thrown at B- - - products, I don't think any have been featured on that channel, happy to be proved wrong.
Geoff
I find it interesting that despite the many brickbats thrown at B- - - products, I don't think any have been featured on that channel, happy to be proved wrong.
Geoff
I agree completely.
If the COVID pandemic has taught me anything; it’s this- on the whole, It’s VERY hard to affect change in people. People want to continue what they’re currently doing.
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!”
That’s not just products or services, it applies to process too.
To pivot and shift is very difficult.
But I always try to look at the upside. And the upside is that the eager and the talented always have opportunities to improve what the stalemates could not.
Forward thinking people like @b_force have consultant jobs.
People on the outside of the loudspeaker industry, like @kimmosto can make positive influences to the loudspeaker industry!
Scroll to the bottom here-
https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/Software.html
@keyser can make waves in the loudspeaker industry.
The late Sigfried Linkwitz contributed to loudspeaker industry with his Linkwitz-Riley filter and Linkwitz transform without ever having to make a living from the business of selling loudspeakers.
Who knows the future may bring?
Will Holoplot or variant be integrated into future flat screen TVs?
Maybe there’s a technology that doesn’t rely on voice coils, flapping surrounds and spiders, which are the last parts of the audio reproduction chain that are intrinsically analog in nature…
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Anyone going to take one of their own known designs and see what he does with it? He says he'll perform his x-over services for anyone who sends in a speaker.
"Maybe there's a technology that doesn't rely on voice-coils, flapping surrounds and spiders...intrinsically analog in nature". The conversion of energies at both ends of the audio-chain is a profound obstacle, it's a miracle as it were, that we discovered such successful mechanisms. Between these two devices along the chain, we can alter, create, manipulate to our hearts content...the interface to "the real world", that of compressing & rarifying air molecules, that's the really tough thing. Air molecules don't care or can't be bothered with electrical signals...oh sure we can crackle high voltage across some noted distances, but we can hardly recreate nuances in music in a 100 Db range at twenty to twenty thousand hertz.
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My personal experience is that crossover component quality upgrades can make a huge difference... cheap speakers have atrocious crossover quality. Speakers with decent-quality drivers can always be improved immensely, just by upgrading capacitors, the cored-inductors with air-inductors, and internal hook-up wiring.
These guys use pretty decent-quality components...
I used to make inductors from annealed silver ribbons 🙂
These days, the PA active speakers are the way to go... but not many high-enders are ready to put those brand-names into their systems.... egos at at play here.
These guys use pretty decent-quality components...
I used to make inductors from annealed silver ribbons 🙂
These days, the PA active speakers are the way to go... but not many high-enders are ready to put those brand-names into their systems.... egos at at play here.
You need a product line as such the lower cost speakers are fitted with worse crossovers.
HPM900 with new crossovers are 80k plus speakers.
HPM900 with new crossovers are 80k plus speakers.
You won’t get any argument from me regarding active crossovers and the benefits of separate amplifiers for each transducer.
(SL published his Linkwitz Riley crossover almost 50 years ago in an article regarding active crossover networks)
Can you recommend a “PA active speaker” that is suitable for in—home use?
Every one I’ve seen has a somewhat lumpy frequency response.
I’d trade a smoother on and off axis frequency response for a slightly lower max SPL capability in home use (listening 10 ft, not 100 ft)
Reference:
Linkwitz, Siegfried H. (February 1976). "Active Crossover Networks for Noncoincident Drivers". Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. 24 (1): 2–8. Retrieved 2021-09-15.
(SL published his Linkwitz Riley crossover almost 50 years ago in an article regarding active crossover networks)
Can you recommend a “PA active speaker” that is suitable for in—home use?
Every one I’ve seen has a somewhat lumpy frequency response.
I’d trade a smoother on and off axis frequency response for a slightly lower max SPL capability in home use (listening 10 ft, not 100 ft)
Reference:
Linkwitz, Siegfried H. (February 1976). "Active Crossover Networks for Noncoincident Drivers". Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. 24 (1): 2–8. Retrieved 2021-09-15.
Have you driven a Lexus? A Camry? It's a lot more than badging and gizmos. The Lexus is a better handling car with a much nicer interior. People will pay for that.
Similarly, have you compared an Accord with a TLX-S A spec SH-AWD? Set up the TLX in Manual mode 2 and find a twisty road. The Accord is a very nice car, but by the third apex you hit you will know that it's a lot more than just "badging and gizmos". Some people will pay for that too.
Don't compare cars within a manufacturer with speakers. It really doesn't work.
Compare cars, and speakers, between manufacturers.. that works better, IMHO.
BTW, recently I heard a $1M system. The main speakers were Wilson WAMM Chronosonic. Amps were top of the line D'Agostinos... etc, etc... IMHO, I could hear every instrument of the orchestra clearly BUT I did not hear the orchestra. It just didn't jell as a the sound of the orchestra... It was instead a bunch of instruments in space.
So, here was a system that indeed measured most excellent indeed and the designer/manufacturer did not cut any corners! Yet, it didn't sound to me like what an orchestra sounds when we're sitting in the middle of row M. In our seats, try as I might, I can't hear the difference between the first and third rows of the violins... I recall the late Harry Pearson waxing poetic about hearing that, but I don't believe that level of accuracy, to what two microphones above and just front of the orchestra capture, is what makes good sound reproduction in the home.
Perhaps, designers don't necessarily want a "flat measuring" speaker? Instrument? They might consciously decide that some distortions and inaccuracies just "sound more realistic". And so they don't see the need to spend money on expensive parts?
They might reason that so long as the parts variability and performance are within their cost/design criteria they are fine. And, might spec better parts as the MSRP increases. While still keeping the voicing common within the House Sound.
Otherwise, we'd all be using active studio monitors.
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I am not sure how you define suitable for in-home use... this one has impressive sound, detail retrieval and extension... but is brutally honest. They must be placed on good stands - not on a console/desk. The quality source is a must; I listened to them with Holo May DAC as a source XLR analog out, very good interconnect cables (combo of silver and copper ribbons) - unbelievable.
https://dynaudio.com/professional-audio/lyd/lyd-48
This is good as well, it comes down to a personal choice between these and the above Dynaudios... the Neumans measure better, but to me.... they do not sound as good as Dyns...
https://www.neumann.com/en-en/products/monitors/kh-310-a/
@tonyEE
Of course. I wouldn’t knock it til I’ve tried it.
My wife owns a 2020 Camry hybrid.
I owned a Lexis IS 250 when we in Canada on 2019. I agree they are different cars. For different markets.
The Camry is a boring passenger FWD sedan.
The IS is sold to a different market. It’s RWD in Australia, AWD in Canada (appropriate given the different weather conditions) and drives much more, enthusiastically.
But it’s no Porsche.
Nor Ferrari.
But the Toyota and Lexus fundamentals are largely the same. Any mechanic will tell you that. In fact, if you can’t find a Lexus dealer, a Toyota dealer can do ALL the repairs, access all the same diagnostic tools and order all the original parts. I live in a small town, so there’s not a Lexus dealer on every corner, but there are Toyota dealers everywhere. Toyota HQ in Japan have conquered the great outback- they’ve comprehensively beaten GM and Ford. We’re still waiting for the F150.
The truth is Toyota can build any spec of consumer motor vehicle it wants to.
(Perhaps not F1). The problem is not the technical know how. It’s the brand image IMHO. Americans and Australian alike thought of Japanese cars as “small Jap crap” when they first entered export markets. Well yes they were small, because they didn’t understand the market at the time. But they cheap and cheerful and efficient and took off during the first oil crisis of the 1970s.
Luxury EXports to US is what they needed to change that image.
Wilson WAMM Chronosonic being “measured most excellent indeed” ?
I, for one would like to see it measured properly. I’m not talking about Stereophile’s 1/6th octave in-room response.
Momentum amplifiers is the epitome of what I call shiny boxes…
As for studio monitors. KH150 is minimum of what I’d call a well designed 2 way 6.5” box speaker. But at home you’re listening for pleasure, not for work.
In home you might want wider dispersion…
Of course. I wouldn’t knock it til I’ve tried it.
My wife owns a 2020 Camry hybrid.
I owned a Lexis IS 250 when we in Canada on 2019. I agree they are different cars. For different markets.
The Camry is a boring passenger FWD sedan.
The IS is sold to a different market. It’s RWD in Australia, AWD in Canada (appropriate given the different weather conditions) and drives much more, enthusiastically.
But it’s no Porsche.
Nor Ferrari.
But the Toyota and Lexus fundamentals are largely the same. Any mechanic will tell you that. In fact, if you can’t find a Lexus dealer, a Toyota dealer can do ALL the repairs, access all the same diagnostic tools and order all the original parts. I live in a small town, so there’s not a Lexus dealer on every corner, but there are Toyota dealers everywhere. Toyota HQ in Japan have conquered the great outback- they’ve comprehensively beaten GM and Ford. We’re still waiting for the F150.
The truth is Toyota can build any spec of consumer motor vehicle it wants to.
(Perhaps not F1). The problem is not the technical know how. It’s the brand image IMHO. Americans and Australian alike thought of Japanese cars as “small Jap crap” when they first entered export markets. Well yes they were small, because they didn’t understand the market at the time. But they cheap and cheerful and efficient and took off during the first oil crisis of the 1970s.
Luxury EXports to US is what they needed to change that image.
Wilson WAMM Chronosonic being “measured most excellent indeed” ?
I, for one would like to see it measured properly. I’m not talking about Stereophile’s 1/6th octave in-room response.
Momentum amplifiers is the epitome of what I call shiny boxes…
As for studio monitors. KH150 is minimum of what I’d call a well designed 2 way 6.5” box speaker. But at home you’re listening for pleasure, not for work.
In home you might want wider dispersion…
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@Extreme_Boky Those are near field monitors, not PA, huh?
@tktran303 Yes, technically a Toyota dealership can work on a Lexus, just as a Honda dealership can work on an Acura.. BUT, it's not so easy. The machines they use, the codes they retrieve and the subsystems they work on are not necessarily the same. We've had a Honda dealer do some debugging in our Acura while on a road trip... it took a phone call to Torrance to authorize it and for the necessary codes and instructions to be emailed from HQ.
But as a rule of thumb, the design criteria for the nameplates are different. The IS300 used to be an awesome car.... at one point they offered an IS300 wagon with a 3 liter I6 and MT6... RWD. It was a hoot that would not be allowed, EVER, as a Toyota vehicle.
Just because Toyota and Lexus are made by the same manufacturer and share the benefits of volume and quality culture, doesn't mean they are made with the same intent.
I don't really see the same thing being done in audio... except perhaps for Harman International.. do they share technology between their brands?
@tktran303 Yes, technically a Toyota dealership can work on a Lexus, just as a Honda dealership can work on an Acura.. BUT, it's not so easy. The machines they use, the codes they retrieve and the subsystems they work on are not necessarily the same. We've had a Honda dealer do some debugging in our Acura while on a road trip... it took a phone call to Torrance to authorize it and for the necessary codes and instructions to be emailed from HQ.
But as a rule of thumb, the design criteria for the nameplates are different. The IS300 used to be an awesome car.... at one point they offered an IS300 wagon with a 3 liter I6 and MT6... RWD. It was a hoot that would not be allowed, EVER, as a Toyota vehicle.
Just because Toyota and Lexus are made by the same manufacturer and share the benefits of volume and quality culture, doesn't mean they are made with the same intent.
I don't really see the same thing being done in audio... except perhaps for Harman International.. do they share technology between their brands?