I made another sample with pcm58, and post yours too so that we have more info on the process. I am just not sure how to deal with the volume adjustment, maybe we need very quiet songs which can be used almost as is.
The gain difference in dacs is a big problem to perform the tests, where to attenuate the signal, where to amplify it? in the mic-pre? digitally? etc
If the mic pre is clean then probably best to bring the level up to maybe -6dBFS or so going into the ADC.
Yes, calibrating at the ADC input that seems fair, I don't have proper equipment to do that...
I checked someone who had the scarlati dac which uses most advanced todays tech to beat R2r.
(https://dcs.community/t/a-better-way-to-measure-the-performance-of-dacs/4811)
I looked into the author of the review and he said in Delta Wave the PK test is the true weight of fidelity of the dac. I have almost similar results for my 58, he had 75db , I have 74.7.. and sorry for not pressing the right button, I am learning this tool.
What I great place to explore too: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dac-measurements-using-deltawave.59822/
I have some reading to do!
(https://dcs.community/t/a-better-way-to-measure-the-performance-of-dacs/4811)
I looked into the author of the review and he said in Delta Wave the PK test is the true weight of fidelity of the dac. I have almost similar results for my 58, he had 75db , I have 74.7.. and sorry for not pressing the right button, I am learning this tool.
What I great place to explore too: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dac-measurements-using-deltawave.59822/
I have some reading to do!
I appreciate Mark. I don't like how the computer sounds, and I prefer the akm with tube, I found the reason with an oscilloscope years ago... I agree that the files would mostly sound the same because they are manipulated and lost 50% at least in digital volume , then went through dac
Smsl, looks like 99% true to source, and affordable Chinese dac, excellent by delta wave comparisons in the links above.
More food for thought:
From the pic I would say it would not be stretching credulity to believe there could likely be way too much masking in that system for dac differences to be audible.
Anyway, how does one measure low level sound stage cue reproduction accuracy in the presence of masking correlated noise? IOW, what is different about the sound of dacs with good SINAD is not likely to be PSS distortion and noise floor, since those things both measure well. Therefore if a real difference in dac sound exists then its more likely to be something that isn't being measured, and or that most systems don't reproduce all that well.
Another complicating factor could be expectation bias where people expect there can be no difference in the sound of dacs.
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I played some arbitrary asymmetrical generated signals, I compared the original to the drawing as reference then sent signals through USB into two different dacs. There was a major difference in the other dac in the top of the waveforms. The original had curved tops, the tube dac was the same with some ringing and high frequency glitch, the computer dac had less of this however all the tops of the waveforms were spikes. since it is a 70mhz scope I could see this clearly which is undetected by ADCs in recording equipment.
Review of D6s at: https://iiwireviews.com/smsl-d6s-a-best-dac-200-can-buy/
The soundstaging is decent and has a forward character. In absolute terms when money is not a problem, it’s nothing to write home about and it will not compare favorably to high-tier DACs and their vast soundstages. But put it next to anything up to five hundred dollars and D6S will hold its own.
IME, a forward soundstage can be a sign of a jitter problem. Benchmark DAC-3 had that too.
The soundstaging is decent and has a forward character. In absolute terms when money is not a problem, it’s nothing to write home about and it will not compare favorably to high-tier DACs and their vast soundstages. But put it next to anything up to five hundred dollars and D6S will hold its own.
IME, a forward soundstage can be a sign of a jitter problem. Benchmark DAC-3 had that too.
OK, so if that SMSL D6S counts as a cheap but good DAC for $199, its obvious competitor would be the Topping D50 III at $229. Both are based on the same ES9039Q2M DS chipset. Has anyone heard the D50 III?
Is that review site trustworthy?
That same reviewer said of the less expensive AKM4493S based Topping E30 II:
The soundstage is not particularly wide and spacious, but inside its boundaries, E30 II creates a very decent sensation of three-dimensional space, dark background, and well-layered tones. The sound is not particularly forward but it’s not laid back either. Also, that bold tonality lends a hand to making everything in between your speakers sound physically present and believable.
...Topping E30 II is capable of creating a clean, bold, and energetic sound. It’s a bit bass-heavy but in a pleasant way, a bit dark up top, but believably three-dimensional and palpable. This is a contrast from many previous Topping offerings in this price range that sounded flatter, brighter, and sharper.
I bought the E30 II Lite version (one DAC chip run in stereo, as opposed to two DAC chips run one per channel) for about $100, because I tend to like a more 'mellow' or 'dark' presentation, and this DAC has kept me happy enough. I can't take 'digital' cymbals, but this DAC sounds OK to me (run from a Raspberry Pi).
Are those valid observations? Do we now have 'good enough' $100 to $200 Chinese DACs that can be considered good for 'entry level hi-fi'? Or is their sound quality noticeably and obviously horrible compared to good DACs in the $1000 range?
Don't know. Haven't listened to the same dacs on the same system.
At least the reviews seem more plausible to me than, "all dacs sound the same." I know not all dacs sound the same to me. I also know that blind is harder than sighted, yet if differences are memorized then blind is quite possible (on my system that I am familiar with).
Strange review as a 9.6 is given. Best DAC 200$ can buy even but “nothing to write home about”?!
Apparently not, at least in an absolute sense.
Could be possible if some better clocks were put in it then soundstage would get more impressive. But then it wouldn't be a bargain so much, as SC-cut quartz is costly to lap and polish to frequency while maintaining a double rotation angle. OTOH, LT3042 is low cost because they get a lot of them from one wafer. IOW, it kind of appears that lowering AN is lower cost that lowering PN. For $200 total selling price they can only lower PN so much.
Could be possible if some better clocks were put in it then soundstage would get more impressive. But then it wouldn't be a bargain so much, as SC-cut quartz is costly to lap and polish to frequency while maintaining a double rotation angle. OTOH, LT3042 is low cost because they get a lot of them from one wafer. IOW, it kind of appears that lowering AN is lower cost that lowering PN. For $200 total selling price they can only lower PN so much.
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Here is my 2 cents on the original premise of this thread. There are some pleasant cheap Chinese DACs, but no excellent ones. I have gone to listen to a lot of live music in various venues over many years and use that experience to guide my opinions of the various DACs that I've heard. I had fun along with Mark4W trying to improve the cheap ess9038Q2M board a couple of years ago, it did improve somewhat sounding much better than the toneboard ESS90038Q2M dac that was so loved at ASR, and in the end it was equivalent to my SUBBU DAC, but for more money. It was a learning experience. That ESS9038Q2M was bumped out of my garage system by an unmodified cheap Chinese AD1865 NOS DAC board, I think it sounds very nice and have been very pleased with it. As for DACs in my house systems I have been very impressed with Abraxilito's DACs, for the money they are hard to beat. Right now though I find my build using Miro AD1862 boards to be the best that I have heard. It 5 separate PSU's, JLSounds Input and a Dark I/V from Abraxilito. I also have a nice AKM4493 DAC that sounds very nice, but once I heard the Miro Dac it went into the closet as a spare.
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What is a pity is that many reviewers don't listen properly to the dacs. I was recently abusing myself switching Opamps while I am plugging this dac into my diy tube amp. As soon as I plugged the SS amp the differences I had done to the dac grades and opamps were major, revealed how better the SS amp was. I was listening to maybe 50% of what my system is able to do. The SS amp has double the current, double the slew rate at least, and no phase problems due to transformer windings.
This truly brings to life what the ad1611 is doing as IV, with dynamics increase. The problem is that it is taxing more the drivers, the waves becomes less rounded and this somewhat prevents the ear from hearing the fine details as it is finishing with the high power impulse, it gets overloaded.
I am playing soon with the dac directly driving new hd650, and as I was disassembling my HD600, I could just shake my head how this tiny piece of plastic can possibly get anything done vs hearing in my living room.
I also know that my system right now is very limited, I don't have a 13'' + woofer system. I am sure my appreciation of the dac bass would be totally different. My passive loaded 7.5 inches driver cannot attain the detail and sound refinement of a big separate woofer. So whatever I think of the bass of the dac is irrelevant.
The reviews mentioned above are so deficient and arbitrary, I think that judging a dac with a headphone should be discredited because no soundstage exist, the frequency response is extremely different from one headphone to another and not flat as all, heavily colored, as well as the shape of the person ear inside the thing affect much. On a note, the only headphone I heard that could give you a small soundstage in your head was the Stax...
This truly brings to life what the ad1611 is doing as IV, with dynamics increase. The problem is that it is taxing more the drivers, the waves becomes less rounded and this somewhat prevents the ear from hearing the fine details as it is finishing with the high power impulse, it gets overloaded.
I am playing soon with the dac directly driving new hd650, and as I was disassembling my HD600, I could just shake my head how this tiny piece of plastic can possibly get anything done vs hearing in my living room.
I also know that my system right now is very limited, I don't have a 13'' + woofer system. I am sure my appreciation of the dac bass would be totally different. My passive loaded 7.5 inches driver cannot attain the detail and sound refinement of a big separate woofer. So whatever I think of the bass of the dac is irrelevant.
The reviews mentioned above are so deficient and arbitrary, I think that judging a dac with a headphone should be discredited because no soundstage exist, the frequency response is extremely different from one headphone to another and not flat as all, heavily colored, as well as the shape of the person ear inside the thing affect much. On a note, the only headphone I heard that could give you a small soundstage in your head was the Stax...
I think that everyone gets too obsessed on this topic. It's only entertainment after all, a DAC only has to be good enough to make you happy. If you love a 30 buck Chinese great, if you aren't happy unless you spend 10 grand, good for you. It is not a life or death issue.