I don't see the point in reproducing ultrasonics if you are going to spoil it all with aliases and images; ADCs and DACs with those filters must sound really horrible to my cat.
Regarding passband ripples of linear-phase filters: according to the theory of R. Lagadec and T. G. Stockham, "Dispersive models for A-to-D and D-to-A conversion systems", Audio Engineering Society preprint 2097, presented at the 75th convention, March 1984, they need to be quite small when you want to keep the pre-echo small (not to be confused with the ultrasonic preringing):
Pre- and post-echo magnitude: Ripple
-30.46 dB: +0.5061 dB / -0.5374 dB
-44.75 dB: +0.09999 dB / -0.1012 dB
-67.89 dB: +0.006998 dB / -0.007004 dB
-120 dB: +0.00001737 dB / -0.00001737 dB
Regarding passband ripples of linear-phase filters: according to the theory of R. Lagadec and T. G. Stockham, "Dispersive models for A-to-D and D-to-A conversion systems", Audio Engineering Society preprint 2097, presented at the 75th convention, March 1984, they need to be quite small when you want to keep the pre-echo small (not to be confused with the ultrasonic preringing):
Pre- and post-echo magnitude: Ripple
-30.46 dB: +0.5061 dB / -0.5374 dB
-44.75 dB: +0.09999 dB / -0.1012 dB
-67.89 dB: +0.006998 dB / -0.007004 dB
-120 dB: +0.00001737 dB / -0.00001737 dB
This argument will keep on for ever.
There are lots of people who cannot distinguish live sound apart from lip sync recorded music when both played on stage. They cannot understand the ambience that is produced only by live music.
MP3 already killed CD sales, why bother 16 bit or 24 bit?
If you are looking deep to hear some fine sound you seem to have heard when someone's system played it, then you will never be satisfied with any system.
You go to beach, climb a mountain, see stars and sky at night, or go to a forest you will forget yourself and enjoy.
Music is the same. If you go to some restaurant and your favorite music is played, will you enjoy it or think it is not 24bit?
It is like your car is only 6 cylinders and 12 valves and mine is 8 cylinders and 24 valves.
Enjoy your music in whatever form.
Regards.
There are lots of people who cannot distinguish live sound apart from lip sync recorded music when both played on stage. They cannot understand the ambience that is produced only by live music.
MP3 already killed CD sales, why bother 16 bit or 24 bit?
If you are looking deep to hear some fine sound you seem to have heard when someone's system played it, then you will never be satisfied with any system.
You go to beach, climb a mountain, see stars and sky at night, or go to a forest you will forget yourself and enjoy.
Music is the same. If you go to some restaurant and your favorite music is played, will you enjoy it or think it is not 24bit?
It is like your car is only 6 cylinders and 12 valves and mine is 8 cylinders and 24 valves.
Enjoy your music in whatever form.
Regards.
No, I did not. The way you quoted me takes the whole thing out of context. Here's an excerpt from my original post:
What the Streaming segment of the music industry decides to offer as a high quality service, is vastly different from what most of us would claim to be good level of quality.
AFAIK the most quality focused streaming services offer something that is supposedly equal to CD quality, but I do not think it is much better than ca 4-500kbit/s. Still a major step up from 128-160kbit/s but not exactly enough to bring out all the superlatives related to awesome fabuliciousness...
Woohoo! I made a new word! Let's see if anyone starts using it in marketing.
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Hahah! Yes indeed! I remember those fantastic 1bit dacs.
Great sound! I had a cd player with one of those.
I think it is important that we see this issue as non-academic, because we have not yet really pushed the limits of 24bit sound. To keep pushing for development, and get actual improvement in sound quality, we fanatics should stand together.
The best CD player I ever owned was a 90s Technics MASH 1 bit player, with the (in)famous swing arm transport bought used for £10. It eventually died a death, sadly.
As far as my opinion/experience with the 16bit 44.1k/48k and 96k/192k 24 bit conundrum...
With existing material to be remastered at 24bit 96k, I find the exercise pointless- just like DVD up scaling is pointless.
But...if recording a master, then the difference between 96k and 44.1/48k is very clear to my ears.
There are simply more sample point to form a complex wave at higher frequencies, so a sine wave at 10kHz looks like a sine wave, and not a triangle.
Increased amplitude resolution from 16 to 24 (or even 32 bit) I couldn't say makes as much of a difference for DR or noise floor, which is already sufficient at 16bit.
But again, when mastering the increased bit depth allows less data loss, or some other complex attribute I dont fully understand, which means when I down sample again, to burn to CDA, the quality is retained in the lower resolution playback.
But a 10kHz sine wave sampled at 44.1kHz looks like... a sine wave, not a triangle, as easily proven with an oscilloscope. It looks like exactly the same sine wave as if sampled at 96kHz. You don't have to take my word for it - there are videos out there analysing the resulting output of sounds sampled at 44.1kHz, and showing you the proof.
No, but a complex wave is no more than a series of sine waves.Is a sine wave a complex wave?
Some scientific based opinion on the matter from Dan Lavry (Lavry Engineering DAC's) is found here: http://www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-white-paper-the_optimal_sample_rate_for_quality_audio.pdf
He think 60KHz is the optimal sample frequency, and in modern systems the closest optimal frequency to it availble is 88.2kHz. Why you can read in the PDF.
He think 60KHz is the optimal sample frequency, and in modern systems the closest optimal frequency to it availble is 88.2kHz. Why you can read in the PDF.
A sine at 10k may look like a sine, but that is due to interpolation, if my technical understanding is correct (and interpolation is essentially an educated guess at where the extra sample points should be)
Does that mean interpolation can reconstruct a complex wave as opposed to a sine? It's hard to answer without testing, and testing that would be difficult too (for me at least).
Does that matter when any harmonic of 10kHz is beyond the hearing range of most people? That's not a question I can answer.
Does that mean interpolation can reconstruct a complex wave as opposed to a sine? It's hard to answer without testing, and testing that would be difficult too (for me at least).
Does that matter when any harmonic of 10kHz is beyond the hearing range of most people? That's not a question I can answer.
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He worries about intermodulation products that might be produced in audio equipment by ultrasonic signals but he totally ignores that such intermodulation products could also be generated in the ears of the listener, and for no apparent reason he assumes that the response of equipment working at 44.1 kHz sample rate is 3 dB down at 20 kHz.
I have the same Technics Player. It still works!
Your consideration is irrelevant. Imagine you have 16 bits. That's 65536 data points. Imagine your volume knob has 65536 settings. Do you really think that you can hear a difference at 30,000 and 30,001? The whole debate about 16 / 24bit and 44.1 to 192k is pointless. The ear just can not hear better. The music quality is determined by instruments, room acoustics, etc., not by technology, where bats still hear something. The whole thing is forced by the industry and magazines who want to earn money again and again.
How high do we have to go to produce a complex wave and what happens if we put it through a filter?
A bit overstated. Many kick drum beaters are plastic, not felt. Most drum heads are also plastic, not skin.
Depending on drummer foot technique the beater may be thrown at the drum head and allowed to rebound, not pressed into the head then released
Many pop and rock records have a little beater sound added to the mix at around 5kHz in order to create a perceptual clue that the bass drum is being hit. The purpose is to help make the kick drum seem more audible on speakers with poor bass response.
At least we agree that there are no RF frequencies involved.
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