yea tyu the mrt should be still unless driven too hard. Sounds like what your saying is that the entire structure was wagging enough to set the mrt into flap mode. That sounds possable to me. I think I did an experament yrs ago by disconecting the signal to the mrt's and just played the bass panels and the mrts were still floping around.
I have used many substartes to build MRTs. Kapton,polyester,paper,teflon,and a few ive forgotten. Kapton and polyester film are basically the same mass. The kapton may be a little better damped than the polyester film, BUT, in the end when you are using an adhesive of some kind between the film and the foil this seems to become the dominant property. The kapton is better at high temps and the polyester can shrink a bit if it get hot enough but I havent seen any issue with it even in small ribbons driven hard unless I used foil thats too thin. With those ive had ribbons literaly go up in flames Ha.
In the bass diaphragm I see no advantage to using the kapton. There simply isnt enough heat to worry about and again the foil and the adhesive are the dominant contrabution to the overall damping. Also in the bass things not as critical as in the MRT. There are other factors in the design of bass diaphragms that are much more important than the type of film. Sorry but really cant talk details on that one as to give away hard won secrets but will say this much, the Apogee bass diaphragm has secrets
.
I have used many substartes to build MRTs. Kapton,polyester,paper,teflon,and a few ive forgotten. Kapton and polyester film are basically the same mass. The kapton may be a little better damped than the polyester film, BUT, in the end when you are using an adhesive of some kind between the film and the foil this seems to become the dominant property. The kapton is better at high temps and the polyester can shrink a bit if it get hot enough but I havent seen any issue with it even in small ribbons driven hard unless I used foil thats too thin. With those ive had ribbons literaly go up in flames Ha.
In the bass diaphragm I see no advantage to using the kapton. There simply isnt enough heat to worry about and again the foil and the adhesive are the dominant contrabution to the overall damping. Also in the bass things not as critical as in the MRT. There are other factors in the design of bass diaphragms that are much more important than the type of film. Sorry but really cant talk details on that one as to give away hard won secrets but will say this much, the Apogee bass diaphragm has secrets
.Not complety sure on the DAX Delta, thats just a preamp level conrol isnt it?? As for as the transformer goes you can wind for any impeedance you want. Could make a trans to match the Dive Mid ohms. In fact a foil MR ribbon will likley have a bit different overall response and sensativity making the DAX very handy in getting it dialed in if I understand what the DAX does.
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tyu, just a guess but I would say no, the 3 trace 2 sided uses thinner foil wich is actually less stiff (lengthwise) than the thicker foil on 6 trace. Plus the 3 trace 2 sided has a bit more mass with the extra layer of adhesive. Its possable the 3 trace will be more flexable BUT figuring in other factors my guess is there really no big difference that would cause the flapping issue.
I had one pr of Stages. The MRT would flap. It was well stretched out and slightly curled. I removed it, carfully ran it over the edge of a ruler to flatten, then re corrugated it. Installed and the problem was gone. I half expected such a "fix" to cause the ribbon to fail but it just kept going. Once you laminate the foil with adhesive and plastic it can be quite durable.
I had one pr of Stages. The MRT would flap. It was well stretched out and slightly curled. I removed it, carfully ran it over the edge of a ruler to flatten, then re corrugated it. Installed and the problem was gone. I half expected such a "fix" to cause the ribbon to fail but it just kept going. Once you laminate the foil with adhesive and plastic it can be quite durable.
3 trace 2 sided ....just to be sure....some of the Calpier sig have foil on front an back on the MRT?.......thanks so much for the insite.....an time...
I dig...the sound of these Apogee speakers......
I have posted this be for ....but the ribbon for the Minors 26"MRt ...that have the fix end...this type of mount..... makes a BIg diff in the sound.... I have pulled the bars that Apogee use that go a cross the ribbons top an bottom.....off an mounted just the board......as in the pic.... the sound stage get better...sweeter more....extended sound.....
I been trying to find a way to do this on my Stages.....it ribbon is longer an has the top an bottom board....then the bars go a cross the ribbons...in the pic......
I dig...the sound of these Apogee speakers......
I have posted this be for ....but the ribbon for the Minors 26"MRt ...that have the fix end...this type of mount..... makes a BIg diff in the sound.... I have pulled the bars that Apogee use that go a cross the ribbons top an bottom.....off an mounted just the board......as in the pic.... the sound stage get better...sweeter more....extended sound.....
I been trying to find a way to do this on my Stages.....it ribbon is longer an has the top an bottom board....then the bars go a cross the ribbons...in the pic......
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What sort of width ribbon is needed to go down to 100Hz. Reason for asking is I'm a hybrid user, following some of the experiments with dipole bass using standard cones. As I have an iddy biddy listening space I don't need huge SPLs, but dipoles low down are a problem to fit in. But ribbon from 120Hz up and a cone in a box below that just might work...
tyu, I dont believe the Cal sigs MRT is two sided. Just a 3 trace one side. Not sure what to tell ya about the ribbon end mount. I see no reasion removing that bar should change sound at all, unless you maybe retnsioned the ribbon differently. If you tension the ribbon and flatten the corrugations out you can change some of the ribbons response as the bending modes have changed BUT not sure why u are hearing a change.
Itsmee, theres always a temptation to post pic but I plan to bring some of this to market in future so I lay low in that dept. Sorry, I can talk a bit about some basics to serve the DIY faithful but for now have to be carful. Hope yo understand.
billshurv, I experamented with man widths and lengths. My best result was with 2 inch approx. wide ribbon when trying to get low. The big issue was getting a small gap aprox 1mm at the sides of the ribbon between rib and magnets. If you have a big gap here the low freqs suffer loss. The 2 inch worked well at handling the power. The last one I did was for small room, 12 ft x 14 foot. They were 4 ft long ribbons with 30 inch wide baffle. Also used a seperate tweeter on the foil only design but could get away with single ribbon with the plastic backed ribbon. I used the Sintilla style tweeter run in same magnet gap for economic resons. Fron there its all experamental hard work. Developing a good speaker is pure torture!! make no mistake, its an exciting process BUT the last mile can be nothing but hard work to get it all right. Big ribbon however gets u most way ther quick. Bug magnets BTW. I think I used 1.5inch deep mag gap 1 inch thick mags with about 1/2 inch thick steel back plates. HEAVY bugger
Itsmee, theres always a temptation to post pic but I plan to bring some of this to market in future so I lay low in that dept. Sorry, I can talk a bit about some basics to serve the DIY faithful but for now have to be carful. Hope yo understand.
billshurv, I experamented with man widths and lengths. My best result was with 2 inch approx. wide ribbon when trying to get low. The big issue was getting a small gap aprox 1mm at the sides of the ribbon between rib and magnets. If you have a big gap here the low freqs suffer loss. The 2 inch worked well at handling the power. The last one I did was for small room, 12 ft x 14 foot. They were 4 ft long ribbons with 30 inch wide baffle. Also used a seperate tweeter on the foil only design but could get away with single ribbon with the plastic backed ribbon. I used the Sintilla style tweeter run in same magnet gap for economic resons. Fron there its all experamental hard work. Developing a good speaker is pure torture!! make no mistake, its an exciting process BUT the last mile can be nothing but hard work to get it all right. Big ribbon however gets u most way ther quick. Bug magnets BTW. I think I used 1.5inch deep mag gap 1 inch thick mags with about 1/2 inch thick steel back plates. HEAVY bugger
Thanks. I have always wondered why the Apogee MT had what looks a wide gap between foil and magnets, but the one time I found a useful link on the subject forgot to save it. But something for me to consider, and certainly easier than making a bass ribbon.
ref the clamping bars, on my centaurs both MT ribbons fractured at that point. The Graz replacements have a much better mounting which removes the stress points there.
ref the clamping bars, on my centaurs both MT ribbons fractured at that point. The Graz replacements have a much better mounting which removes the stress points there.
The bars pressing...down adding pressure on the foils 6 traces.....dose give more mid.....but this added mid may be good for good Specifications #.....but to my ear is not needed.... also
Graz went to this mount with replacement MRT ....with out the bares..as seen in the pic..there were talk of using diff mounts types for other replament MRTs for better sound.....from a installers...
One more tweek with the Stages.....the back pole peace screws can be back out....like only 1/2 of them an the sound also inproves.....the Stages pole peace magnet mount from the outside..... can tuned the mid- bass vary ezely........this is one more setup...sets the stage apart.....all other Apogee Bass ribbons magnets pole peace are mounted from the in side....this makes a box like sound..... to my ears and over damping....of the bass driver ....an give the darker sound all other Apogee bass drive have.... when compared to the Stages bass that sounds a lot faster.....an louder.....
Graz went to this mount with replacement MRT ....with out the bares..as seen in the pic..there were talk of using diff mounts types for other replament MRTs for better sound.....from a installers...
One more tweek with the Stages.....the back pole peace screws can be back out....like only 1/2 of them an the sound also inproves.....the Stages pole peace magnet mount from the outside..... can tuned the mid- bass vary ezely........this is one more setup...sets the stage apart.....all other Apogee Bass ribbons magnets pole peace are mounted from the in side....this makes a box like sound..... to my ears and over damping....of the bass driver ....an give the darker sound all other Apogee bass drive have.... when compared to the Stages bass that sounds a lot faster.....an louder.....
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![460319d1421713173-apogee-centaurs-going-active-after-close-up[1][1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/490/490572-76166365b6c7c6738f4f881ab730a4ae.jpg)
I have found no Apogee MRT or bass drive...just the Stage....with foil on front an back...only front... less there all foil......here a Calpier Sig......
you can also see how all other Apogees .... bass driver pole magnet peace is mounted from in side ..this setup makes a small box......an the Stage is mounted from the outside..
It a beautiful thing....just think what a Duetta would have sounded made this way............Wow
you can also see how all other Apogees .... bass driver pole magnet peace is mounted from in side ..this setup makes a small box......an the Stage is mounted from the outside..
It a beautiful thing....just think what a Duetta would have sounded made this way............Wow
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![572997-apogee_caliper_full_range_ribbons_black[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/491/491243-45b0c7c891b9c87e04081bad38cde227.jpg)
![021_zpsgioixljl[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/491/491248-0e094f8cdfa710ec6c1861f545320b85.jpg)
The reason the Stage magnet array being mounted under vs the others over is the Stage does not have a lower clamp set (costs). This is also one of the reasons for the speakers failure mode in the bass. The other planars all involve upper and lower clamp sets, a good thing...
As for upgraded MRTW returns for the early speakers other than the Stage, I have actually provided these on 3 occasions to "non installers". Interesting results;-
One got them in OK I believe, via a speaker repairer,
One had a go, and a go via a speaker repairer, then asked for a refund ("too hard")
And the last was looking for inspiration for his own fake product (bought for "duetta signatures"), I supplied him in good faith and to the best of my knowledge incorporated a copy!
With those odds it's better to do the upgraded returns via Installers, that way I know they will work as designed
As for upgraded MRTW returns for the early speakers other than the Stage, I have actually provided these on 3 occasions to "non installers". Interesting results;-
One got them in OK I believe, via a speaker repairer,
One had a go, and a go via a speaker repairer, then asked for a refund ("too hard")
And the last was looking for inspiration for his own fake product (bought for "duetta signatures"), I supplied him in good faith and to the best of my knowledge incorporated a copy!
With those odds it's better to do the upgraded returns via Installers, that way I know they will work as designed
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Say What you like about the Stage setup being Chep.....an not being up to Audiofile standards ......as you have stated minny times for minny years....
My first pr of Stages came in 92-3 lot of fun..great sound so said everyone that heard them....I was in the Audio bizz at the time....
My only pr of Duettas sig...were 94....less than a year the Duettas bass drivers were buzzing.....then came the Diva...95 same thing 3-4 months...buzzing bass...what a turn off...............
I have had 5 pr of Stages from the 90s till today... today my pr were made in 93...none of the Stages have ever buzzed.....so I got tell you the Stage sound great an they work!
An setup right the Stages give my ears 80-90% of the best things I like about ribbon drivers
So do I think some one could make better .....maybe....I am waiting..
So you may make a better ribbon speaker today..an that's a good thing.....ribbon speaker sound great...but all the Biger Apogee type fullrang ribbon speakers....have all been what most would call dark sounding in a normal room
an moveing any speaker around that over 100lbs that's thin an can flex......good luck with that.....
Thanks for any an all input on panel type speakers...
My first pr of Stages came in 92-3 lot of fun..great sound so said everyone that heard them....I was in the Audio bizz at the time....
My only pr of Duettas sig...were 94....less than a year the Duettas bass drivers were buzzing.....then came the Diva...95 same thing 3-4 months...buzzing bass...what a turn off...............
I have had 5 pr of Stages from the 90s till today... today my pr were made in 93...none of the Stages have ever buzzed.....so I got tell you the Stage sound great an they work!
An setup right the Stages give my ears 80-90% of the best things I like about ribbon drivers
So do I think some one could make better .....maybe....I am waiting..
So you may make a better ribbon speaker today..an that's a good thing.....ribbon speaker sound great...but all the Biger Apogee type fullrang ribbon speakers....have all been what most would call dark sounding in a normal room
an moveing any speaker around that over 100lbs that's thin an can flex......good luck with that.....
Thanks for any an all input on panel type speakers...
tyu, theres lots of 30 yr old speakers that don't buzz yet, climate heat and sun are the culprits for foam failure, don't kid yourself, the stages are prone to it also. Also I don't agree with the bigger bass panels have a darker sound, the extra deep bass may influance one's mind to think so.
Delta... I am not kidding anyone...why would you even say these things ..do you really feel your the only one that knows what happens to older Apogees......Unlike you I am speaking from my own Experience.....in a normal room...
Don't kid your self........your BIG room would not work for me...an I say for most!.
My point is MY stages are working great an sound as good as any stock Duetta-Caliper
to day.... an what you call deeeep bass sound to most like the speakers are roller off on the top.........stop kidding your self!
Don't kid your self........your BIG room would not work for me...an I say for most!.
My point is MY stages are working great an sound as good as any stock Duetta-Caliper
to day.... an what you call deeeep bass sound to most like the speakers are roller off on the top.........stop kidding your self!
Can we agree that
a) there is a Apogee for every room and the wrong room makes for unhappy Apogee
b) North America has an insane variation in climate which can really mess with certain materials if you live in the wrong place?
I had forgotten that the Graz Synergy uses a scintilla-like midrange with tweeter in front setup but with Neo magnets to get high sensitivity. I have to give thanks he hasn't made a 26" version available as a bare driver to the DIY crowd or I would be selling one of the kids...
a) there is a Apogee for every room and the wrong room makes for unhappy Apogee
b) North America has an insane variation in climate which can really mess with certain materials if you live in the wrong place?
I had forgotten that the Graz Synergy uses a scintilla-like midrange with tweeter in front setup but with Neo magnets to get high sensitivity. I have to give thanks he hasn't made a 26" version available as a bare driver to the DIY crowd or I would be selling one of the kids...
Hold that thought on the kids - there must be another way! YES I have made and stock a FO drive unit to fit to the 26-6 frame, in stock since 2006. A well kept secret til now actually! You would be surprised just how many variations I have tried on the speaker ribbons theme for all types, materials, construction, tension systems, magnetics. Madness. BUT the 26-6KLM5 is a very nice ribbon, just right for your speakers, no need to change...
Apogees, standard. Bear in mind a few things, in no particular order;-
1) Most Apogee's are quite old now, and the standard in use life of an MRTW at it's best, in spec is about 8 years. Some may disagree, but as time goes on several factors collude to soften the MRTW's output. Truth is - many have not heard an early Apogee at it's best unless it has been restored. Think of an ageing apogee as similar to an ageing supercar, as the car ages the suspension softens, and the horses escape from the motor!!
Many Apogee's have been restored properly now now, but their owners tend not to be in forums...
2) Stage has a different balance to most speakers, euphoric would be my word for it! There were good and bad versions of this, I have heard some that sound great, and some that never have worked properly. Variable. I own a good set, enjoyable in the right room, with the right system.
3) Stage bass fail mode. The under-foam is under greater pressure than the over foam, and there is no recess. As the foam ages, the panel binds.
4) Buzz. A question of accuracy overall, and more obvious when the damping foam fails on any of the planar Ap's.
Other. There are different characteristics to FO and composite drivers, and these go way beyond a basic "group" sound. Implementation is very important, xover work essential, partnering amps crucial. Fragility is a concern with FO drivers. And simply put - a lot of work to modify, and with no production to justify the work. Modest gains in some areas, some losses too.
Lastly - Scintilla (both types) has 2 tweeters front, 2 back, a mr and a bass. Synergy (both types) has the same complement, MR and TW ribbons similar, bass entirely different, and more than the magnets go to achieve the efficiency. And as of the end of last year, Synergy is out of production, replaced by the metal chassis Apogee Duetta Advance 7.
Take care - Graz
BUT the 26-6KLM5 is a very nice ribbon, just right for your speakers, no need to change...Apogees, standard. Bear in mind a few things, in no particular order;-
1) Most Apogee's are quite old now, and the standard in use life of an MRTW at it's best, in spec is about 8 years. Some may disagree, but as time goes on several factors collude to soften the MRTW's output. Truth is - many have not heard an early Apogee at it's best unless it has been restored. Think of an ageing apogee as similar to an ageing supercar, as the car ages the suspension softens, and the horses escape from the motor!!
Many Apogee's have been restored properly now now, but their owners tend not to be in forums...
2) Stage has a different balance to most speakers, euphoric would be my word for it! There were good and bad versions of this, I have heard some that sound great, and some that never have worked properly. Variable. I own a good set, enjoyable in the right room, with the right system.
3) Stage bass fail mode. The under-foam is under greater pressure than the over foam, and there is no recess. As the foam ages, the panel binds.
4) Buzz. A question of accuracy overall, and more obvious when the damping foam fails on any of the planar Ap's.
Other. There are different characteristics to FO and composite drivers, and these go way beyond a basic "group" sound. Implementation is very important, xover work essential, partnering amps crucial. Fragility is a concern with FO drivers. And simply put - a lot of work to modify, and with no production to justify the work. Modest gains in some areas, some losses too.
Lastly - Scintilla (both types) has 2 tweeters front, 2 back, a mr and a bass. Synergy (both types) has the same complement, MR and TW ribbons similar, bass entirely different, and more than the magnets go to achieve the efficiency. And as of the end of last year, Synergy is out of production, replaced by the metal chassis Apogee Duetta Advance 7.
Take care - Graz
Hold that thought on the kids - there must be another way! YES I have made and stock a FO drive unit to fit to the 26-6 frame, in stock since 2006. A well kept secret til now actually! You would be surprised just how many variations I have tried on the speaker ribbons theme for all types, materials, construction, tension systems, magnetics. Madness.
I'm a couple of years behind PJblakey, but following a similar path to him with mods to hybrids. He's pushed his 26" down to 350Hz LR4. I physically cannot fit full range ribbons in, but ribbon to 100Hz could make for a nice compromise. But for now I love my KLM-5s, as does the wife. I just have to finish going active.
Any pics/specs on the web for that. Can't afford it, but want to see what to order when I win the lottery and buy a bigger house.
I quietly put this out last year, not seeking to make truckloads of anything
Two places to see one picture from the front, reviews will come in the future, with detailed pictures (so far witheld as some are curious for the wrong reasons), and the new website will go online then...
Apogee forum;-
View topic - Announcement - the all new APOGEE ACOUSTICS DUETTA ADVANCE 7
Apogee on facebook;-
https://www.facebook.com/ApogeeAcoustics/
Synergy was nice to listen to, not always nice to make. The Advance 7's tick both boxes nice/nice and allow me to indulge my engineering fetishes deeply!
People tend to hang onto speakers I have made over time, very few getting to the second hand owners. The new Apogee Acoustics DA7 are structurally engineered and designed to last a VERY long time!
Take care - Graz
Two places to see one picture from the front, reviews will come in the future, with detailed pictures (so far witheld as some are curious for the wrong reasons), and the new website will go online then...
Apogee forum;-
View topic - Announcement - the all new APOGEE ACOUSTICS DUETTA ADVANCE 7
Apogee on facebook;-
https://www.facebook.com/ApogeeAcoustics/
Synergy was nice to listen to, not always nice to make. The Advance 7's tick both boxes nice/nice and allow me to indulge my engineering fetishes deeply!
People tend to hang onto speakers I have made over time, very few getting to the second hand owners. The new Apogee Acoustics DA7 are structurally engineered and designed to last a VERY long time!
Take care - Graz
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