I just got go back to the Apogee Stages......after time with Capiler Sig ....I have been taken back to the same places I was in 93-5...with the Duetta Sig...Divas.....
Vary unrealistic for anyone normal room-amp to drive........!
it is even more clear to me now..... why the Stages sound got into my head....
it has to do with the foil on the back of the bass drives......
oh it may have been said many many times....about how the way the stages is made... that it was a tease -taste for the TRUE audiophile Apogee speakers.....an from a.....how much money do I have to $$ spend to get these ribbons too give all they can.......
well this is were the Stages come in an just kills the BS...from were I hear....
yes I have had my 100lb Krell KSA 250....my Purist Audio Liquid-filled cabels....an all that gose with it....
but in the end.....you better like that sound....less you got those DEEEEP pockets...to keep going......an going....an going......
But till some one makes full rang ribbon speaker out of all foil....are one like the bass drivers in the Stages....that can plays in a nom room.....with a nom amps....good luck....
lot time- money well be spent .....to get even a little better.....well to my ears
all just one mans o-pine.........
Vary unrealistic for anyone normal room-amp to drive........!
it is even more clear to me now..... why the Stages sound got into my head....
it has to do with the foil on the back of the bass drives......
oh it may have been said many many times....about how the way the stages is made... that it was a tease -taste for the TRUE audiophile Apogee speakers.....an from a.....how much money do I have to $$ spend to get these ribbons too give all they can.......
well this is were the Stages come in an just kills the BS...from were I hear....
yes I have had my 100lb Krell KSA 250....my Purist Audio Liquid-filled cabels....an all that gose with it....
but in the end.....you better like that sound....less you got those DEEEEP pockets...to keep going......an going....an going......
But till some one makes full rang ribbon speaker out of all foil....are one like the bass drivers in the Stages....that can plays in a nom room.....with a nom amps....good luck....
lot time- money well be spent .....to get even a little better.....well to my ears
all just one mans o-pine.........
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The Stage is phisically smaller, the ribbons are heavyer, and the fundamental resonance is higher. Just a few of the reasions they are easyer to "get right" in room. Properly setup and in a room capable of dealing with the issues, the larger systems have an advantage that is rarely met in many listening environments.
yes but the Stages foil bass driver ...facing back close up to the magnets ....that are driving it....have a sound of it own....
Sounds way diff than the Duetta,Clapier kapton backet bass facing magnets...
kapton sounds dead..life less...
look these are old speakers....most well never see...or hear them....
why cant this be done....to other ribbon bass driver?...........I don't get it..hehe
Sounds way diff than the Duetta,Clapier kapton backet bass facing magnets...
kapton sounds dead..life less...
look these are old speakers....most well never see...or hear them....
why cant this be done....to other ribbon bass driver?...........I don't get it..hehe
tyu. I have built BOTH kinds many times and of many different combinations of foil thickness , kapton and mylar thickness, and hears the big one, adhesive type and thickness. I have at least some experience with the sonic characture of each. As well I have owned Stage and have done many mods including developing a foil only MRT for it. Kapton is not really "dead and lifless". Its all in the exacution. The Stage has mylar and adhesive between the front and rear foil. It would be no different if it were Kapton of equill mass.
I can tell you this much from all the experaments. Heavyer ribbons have a distinctly different sonic than the lighter ones. There tend to be for lack of a better way to put it, more "mass" to the sound, more "meat" , somthing many lower mass planers simply seem to be lacking. As well the Stage bass diaphragm has a higher beam stiffness than a single sided design and likley more damping in some ways but higher mass. Its a different "coloration" than the others AND yes to many ears ,including mine
, the sound is more satisfying. More "accurate", ha well who knows. I am always amazed at how some speakers with higher distrotion sond more like real music being played than some lower distortion designs. In the end IMO loudspeakers are a mechanical devise attempting to recreate a sonic event. They are NOT the original sound. They are by their very nature "colored" from the get go. This is why many believe that good design, dispite all out science , will still be an ART. I for one hope this never gets reduced to simply an academic excersize.
I can tell you this much from all the experaments. Heavyer ribbons have a distinctly different sonic than the lighter ones. There tend to be for lack of a better way to put it, more "mass" to the sound, more "meat" , somthing many lower mass planers simply seem to be lacking. As well the Stage bass diaphragm has a higher beam stiffness than a single sided design and likley more damping in some ways but higher mass. Its a different "coloration" than the others AND yes to many ears ,including mine
, the sound is more satisfying. More "accurate", ha well who knows. I am always amazed at how some speakers with higher distrotion sond more like real music being played than some lower distortion designs. In the end IMO loudspeakers are a mechanical devise attempting to recreate a sonic event. They are NOT the original sound. They are by their very nature "colored" from the get go. This is why many believe that good design, dispite all out science , will still be an ART. I for one hope this never gets reduced to simply an academic excersize.Yes....dead is not the right word.....I dig the way you have dove in to this...an I could not agree more....all you say is so ezey to understand....from were I coming from...an you have done-are doing the work......can you give me any mods I may try ...that will give more-better sound as you see it....
I have done some mods like the guy at north creek up greaded crossovers.....add a zobel to the bass driver....made the trap a little biger.. caps...res.......I have not upgreaded the coils....I have add some diff caps to the mix on the MRT stock caps ..has worket well....an I can go back to stock...an ck..like you say...ani do..
....I know these stages an Calipers can be made to sound better.....it just that the one sided Apogee stock bass drivers are like driving a dead short...when put next to the stages....but you know all this....because you care about the sound an well do what ever it takes.....get there.....
thanks for going there an then sharing your finding..........vary cool.....
well for me..hehe ..thanks for your time
I have done some mods like the guy at north creek up greaded crossovers.....add a zobel to the bass driver....made the trap a little biger.. caps...res.......I have not upgreaded the coils....I have add some diff caps to the mix on the MRT stock caps ..has worket well....an I can go back to stock...an ck..like you say...ani do..
....I know these stages an Calipers can be made to sound better.....it just that the one sided Apogee stock bass drivers are like driving a dead short...when put next to the stages....but you know all this....because you care about the sound an well do what ever it takes.....get there.....
thanks for going there an then sharing your finding..........vary cool.....
well for me..hehe ..thanks for your time
Quit knocking the bigger Apogee fullrange drivers, only ones that are harder to drive are the Scintilla's, and thier well worth thier effort, no Stage on this planet can compete with them, or even a Duetta Sig for that matter. The Stage is a very good speaker, there's no doubt about that, but the double sided bass panel adds it's own coloration to vocals, which are over bassed , also it's not fast on dynamics, lazy in fact imo, It does have a decent tweeter unit tho. Also I wouldn't waste my money on Calipers. That to is my opinion
Delta.........think your hearing your bass panels.......buzzzzzzzzzzzzing........... what a pic of your room..good luck with that............hehe
How can anyone .....think you...would have a clue..about what any Apogee are other speakers would sound like.....in a normal room..... like most have!......................
you know like my...18'X25'.....That is Just my opinion !
As for the $300 for the pr of Capiler Sig....the 36" MTR an all the magnets in the bass driver well give me lot of diy fun.....an like Davey..i can always add 4-6 driver were the panel are.....win-win....thank you vary much
How can anyone .....think you...would have a clue..about what any Apogee are other speakers would sound like.....in a normal room..... like most have!......................
you know like my...18'X25'.....That is Just my opinion !
As for the $300 for the pr of Capiler Sig....the 36" MTR an all the magnets in the bass driver well give me lot of diy fun.....an like Davey..i can always add 4-6 driver were the panel are.....win-win....thank you vary much
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The mods that I liked best with the Stage had mostly to do with taming the overblown bass rise. This helps "speed up" the bass character. The rise the Apps have is a bit too hot, somthing like +16db close mic measurment. + 12 db is better for most music especially percussion transients. To "fix" this go buy some of that cheap felt cloth about 1/16 inch thick from any craft store. Take a 1 foot by 1 foot square and speay one side with a couple coats of adhesive spray and stick it to the back side of the bass magnet array. Use that cheap spray like super 77 so u can remove and wash off with acetone if u want. Be caful and dont get slopy and allow acetne to leak down into magnet adhesive. Get if firmly attached, no loose parts. This adds some acustic resistance to the action of the bass panel and lowers the "Q" a bit. If it sounds too bass shy then cut the felt down untill its right. U can even cut into say 4 inch wide strips and place them evenly on different sections of the panel If you have a measurment system u can get it exactly as u want and keep track of how much bass rise sound like what with what music. Its easy but it can drive ya nuts. too much and all bass gone ,too little and no effect.
I also liked playing with the woofer cap size. this one can start all sorts of trouble as it will sound great with some music and awful with other. Basically less cap sounds more dynamic, more cap sounds more believable male voice.
I did a lot of work with a foil only mrt as well. Nightmear ! on some stuff it was amazing transparent singer in the room, on everything else it was mid fi. The FO's take a LOT of time to massage their freq respons into rightness.
In the end the Stage IMO is a well balanced design that benafits most from a bit of bass EQ from the felt out back and maybe a bit more cap on the woofer. Yea sure maybe a bit more fiddling with the MRT trap to flatten those peaks. A fun speaker.
I also liked playing with the woofer cap size. this one can start all sorts of trouble as it will sound great with some music and awful with other. Basically less cap sounds more dynamic, more cap sounds more believable male voice.
I did a lot of work with a foil only mrt as well. Nightmear ! on some stuff it was amazing transparent singer in the room, on everything else it was mid fi. The FO's take a LOT of time to massage their freq respons into rightness.
In the end the Stage IMO is a well balanced design that benafits most from a bit of bass EQ from the felt out back and maybe a bit more cap on the woofer. Yea sure maybe a bit more fiddling with the MRT trap to flatten those peaks. A fun speaker.
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TYU - games with the Caliper Sig - better to repair the bass and MRTW properly, that said, if you want to play with the MRTW there is a way to do this and retain the bass panel. With the case front removed (two screws at the bottom, two hidden "hook" screws at the top - undo bottome edge, lift) - take a look at the inside edge of the MRTW frame where it meets the edge of the bass chassis. There are 4 bolts there that go into cross-dowel (barrel nuts). Carefully remove these and the MRTW frame will separate from the bass. This same method can be used to attach an mdf board with cones...
LM - I am still in contact with "Bakunin" - alive and well...
Re panel Apogee's I am in agreement with Al. The name they have gotten as amp killers is unfair imho (except Scintilla and to a lesser degree FR). All of the rest are drivable running 3-5 ohms through the different models. The new Duettas are a genuine 4 ohm load, very tame, though those who buy them have no concerns with partnering amps...
Take care - Graz
LM - I am still in contact with "Bakunin" - alive and well...
Re panel Apogee's I am in agreement with Al. The name they have gotten as amp killers is unfair imho (except Scintilla and to a lesser degree FR). All of the rest are drivable running 3-5 ohms through the different models. The new Duettas are a genuine 4 ohm load, very tame, though those who buy them have no concerns with partnering amps...
Take care - Graz
As for how I feel about the .....odd ,life less sound of the older full range Apogee speakers...in my room too my ears........That is my opinion ....an I well stand buy it...
An as for most buying 10 diff amps that have to be 80-100lbea...been there, done that ....to get HIGH sound pressure...out of these old ...out lived there lives..an must have there ribbon replace to work an sound great....better be ready to spend Big CASH....an I don't care about other high end speakers that....cost more..who cares if I don't like there sound.....big deal...
As to what others think......if you don't go you don't know..
For anyone too make a statement about a pr of older Caliper sig....sound in my room to me... to day.................good luck with that
As to my Calipers Sig ribbon bass driver...there no buzz...sound fine.......most anyone that like the sound of the Stages.....for $300 ...come on..i say that a fair price.....hell I pay that just to have them to look at...like a peace of Art....
I do say to anyone ....thanks... for any an all input on geting better sound out of these old ribbon speakers like the Stages....that I feel sound can BE as good as most speakers that I like...
made to day......... That to is just.... my opinion
An as for most buying 10 diff amps that have to be 80-100lbea...been there, done that ....to get HIGH sound pressure...out of these old ...out lived there lives..an must have there ribbon replace to work an sound great....better be ready to spend Big CASH....an I don't care about other high end speakers that....cost more..who cares if I don't like there sound.....big deal...
As to what others think......if you don't go you don't know..
For anyone too make a statement about a pr of older Caliper sig....sound in my room to me... to day.................good luck with that
As to my Calipers Sig ribbon bass driver...there no buzz...sound fine.......most anyone that like the sound of the Stages.....for $300 ...come on..i say that a fair price.....hell I pay that just to have them to look at...like a peace of Art....
I do say to anyone ....thanks... for any an all input on geting better sound out of these old ribbon speakers like the Stages....that I feel sound can BE as good as most speakers that I like...
made to day......... That to is just.... my opinion
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TYU - you are not giving the older Apogee's a fair go in the upper frequencies
Bear in mind that the life of a pair of 3E ribbons (Caliper/Duetta/Diva - all) is really about 7-8 years on form, after that the sound has degraded to a level below specification. One of the main ways this manifests is a softening of dynamics and life, and it loses it's integration with the bass panel...
If your bargain Caliper Sigs have no buzz, and assuming they are built properly, replacing the MRTW, and beefing up the stands should take them past the Stages by a fair margin...
Take care - Graz
Bear in mind that the life of a pair of 3E ribbons (Caliper/Duetta/Diva - all) is really about 7-8 years on form, after that the sound has degraded to a level below specification. One of the main ways this manifests is a softening of dynamics and life, and it loses it's integration with the bass panel...
If your bargain Caliper Sigs have no buzz, and assuming they are built properly, replacing the MRTW, and beefing up the stands should take them past the Stages by a fair margin...
Take care - Graz
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Graz,have you seen this so called installation of bass ribbons in Calipers?Here is the link as it is in german but I ran it through Googles translator and it worked okay.
http://www.dis-magnetostaten.de/forum/manual.pdf
jer
Mindboggling awful;the ribbons are not even tensioned vertically aswell as the glueing procedure where the bottom half of the clamp is glued to the ribbon and heavy weights applied! View and weep,
TYU,if you want to jmprove the sound of your Stages get rid of those inadequate feet and replace them with larger ones.Get some large thick aluminium L angle,screw and glue two pieces top to bottom each side of bass section.Then bolt two more pieces to the bottom say 18 inches long and then two more pieces diagonally linking these to form a very rigid structure.Of course fit 4 spikes.What you will hear should be tighter bass and a more focused sound stage.
Thanks for your an anyones input on getting better sound out of Apogee ribbons...
I have tried the type of feet you suggest......made from wood an thick aluminium .&..steel..
But always go back to the stock feet.....all Add something diff to the sound...maybe if I set my speakers up like most have too with them 2-4' feet off the front wall....an 6-8' apart
my setup is 12'wide an about 14' off the front wall...in a 18'X25' open room.... just a chair.
My Caliper Signature have the older type feet...just like the Stage...made new feet for them....but as for MY ears....they as all other larger Apogee full range speakers...sound dead to me....the Stage with its front an back bass panels just gives a sound that they cant make....have had the Duetta Sig an spent time with the Diva..they just don't cut it!
all just one mans finding...others may-well feel diff....good luck
I have tried the type of feet you suggest......made from wood an thick aluminium .&..steel..
But always go back to the stock feet.....all Add something diff to the sound...maybe if I set my speakers up like most have too with them 2-4' feet off the front wall....an 6-8' apart
my setup is 12'wide an about 14' off the front wall...in a 18'X25' open room.... just a chair.
My Caliper Signature have the older type feet...just like the Stage...made new feet for them....but as for MY ears....they as all other larger Apogee full range speakers...sound dead to me....the Stage with its front an back bass panels just gives a sound that they cant make....have had the Duetta Sig an spent time with the Diva..they just don't cut it!
all just one mans finding...others may-well feel diff....good luck