Did you look at the link I posted earlier in this thread ? My rooms 21' x 10' . I get a free 10dB of spl at 15Hz thanks to room gain. If my sub was -3dB@15Hz then I'd actually be +7dB at 15Hz.
In my experience this would make my bass sound 'slow' 'boomy' 'muffled' 'lacking definition' etc etc... Possibly ok for home cinema, where some boost at the lowest gives a 'fun factor' but for music no thanks... Could also make any room modes more pronounced.
Horses for courses I 'spose.
Rob
A fairly safe 'guesstimate' would be to model for a low Q sealed plot or an EBS plot. If my tempests were ebs instead of sealed they'd measure pretty flat in my room without eq.
In my experience this would make my bass sound 'slow' 'boomy' 'muffled' 'lacking definition' etc etc... Possibly ok for home cinema, where some boost at the lowest gives a 'fun factor' but for music no thanks... Could also make any room modes more pronounced.
Horses for courses I 'spose.
Rob
A fairly safe 'guesstimate' would be to model for a low Q sealed plot or an EBS plot. If my tempests were ebs instead of sealed they'd measure pretty flat in my room without eq.
You might not be interested in this one but:
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/
Have a huge range of subs for car audio and out of that huge range there's a few choice ones that make quite astounding home subs.
I have personal experience with the RE XXX 15" v3, its basically a Tumult with a higher Fs of 28hz, its got the XBL2 motor, uses the same basket but has a different and possibly more stiff cone.
I used it in a 110ltr sealed enclosure and it was quite the performer with a transform down to 13hz -3dB in room.
I have a good friend who also pulled his hair out at the lack of 15" subs in this country and ended up buying a car sub much like I did with the RE XXX. He ended up with the 15" Diamond Audio D6 in a 2.5cuft sealed enclosure with EQ. This, to my ears, is even better than the XXX as far as hi-fi is concerned. Quite a bit less Xmas than the XXX but VERY musical and rates in my top 3 subs that I've heard ever.
I'm aiming to build something like his in the future.
I've owned a quite a few subs over the years from SVS PC-Ultra through to 2 x Paradigm Servo 15's. Non of these could really hold a candle to that Diamond D6 15" for all round quality. One thing I have never heard done so well is the combination of slam and depth combined, most deep subs sound a little too polite, sure they rattle the room but they don't have that kick that you can really feel. That Diamond goes real deep - as deep as my XXX but has more slam even though the response curves are both similar. Could be the rooms but eitherway I think its one of the best subs out there regardless of whether or not its car audio.
In fact Von Schweikert uses the very same driver in his $50,000 VR-9
I've also heard that the JL W7 range is rather good, though go for the 12" or 13" for the best results.
These drivers are pricey though:
RE XXX 15 v3 = £400
Diamond D6 15 = £400
JL W7 = £600(12") £750(13")
What you get though is some the best tech and materials in the world of subs.
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/
Have a huge range of subs for car audio and out of that huge range there's a few choice ones that make quite astounding home subs.
I have personal experience with the RE XXX 15" v3, its basically a Tumult with a higher Fs of 28hz, its got the XBL2 motor, uses the same basket but has a different and possibly more stiff cone.
I used it in a 110ltr sealed enclosure and it was quite the performer with a transform down to 13hz -3dB in room.
I have a good friend who also pulled his hair out at the lack of 15" subs in this country and ended up buying a car sub much like I did with the RE XXX. He ended up with the 15" Diamond Audio D6 in a 2.5cuft sealed enclosure with EQ. This, to my ears, is even better than the XXX as far as hi-fi is concerned. Quite a bit less Xmas than the XXX but VERY musical and rates in my top 3 subs that I've heard ever.
I'm aiming to build something like his in the future.
I've owned a quite a few subs over the years from SVS PC-Ultra through to 2 x Paradigm Servo 15's. Non of these could really hold a candle to that Diamond D6 15" for all round quality. One thing I have never heard done so well is the combination of slam and depth combined, most deep subs sound a little too polite, sure they rattle the room but they don't have that kick that you can really feel. That Diamond goes real deep - as deep as my XXX but has more slam even though the response curves are both similar. Could be the rooms but eitherway I think its one of the best subs out there regardless of whether or not its car audio.
In fact Von Schweikert uses the very same driver in his $50,000 VR-9
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I've also heard that the JL W7 range is rather good, though go for the 12" or 13" for the best results.
These drivers are pricey though:
RE XXX 15 v3 = £400
Diamond D6 15 = £400
JL W7 = £600(12") £750(13")
What you get though is some the best tech and materials in the world of subs.
Just to let everyone know that the guy from AE speakers is very ill been speaking to him on msn messenger so thats why things arnt moving quickly. We will have to be patient with him
phillfyspoon said:
In that case , could you just let him know what were trying to do here, and we'll suspend this until he's better ? Maybe he could let us know when he's ready by posting here...
Rob
ShanOBIWAN I have been lokking at the RE audio series they are alot of money but do go low in a ported box so what would u recommend I dont want to go over £210 for the driver and want a 12" because the 15 would need a very large box. How would a driver in this price range compare do u think to must home subs being a car sub?
RobWells said:
Sadely Rob I sold it on last year to a car audio buddy.
Great sub and I miss it, overall I'd say it was around the same sort of ball park as the CS-Ultra I had. Both were quite scary with HT but lacked the out right quality for really decent music reproduction - and I'm being picky here but when it comes to bass I think its much harder to get great results rather than just good.
The Diamond D6 is definitely in the great catagory, they've also just released the D9 series which is around double the price at £800 but I'd imagine is quite simply amazing, if its brother is anything to go by.
phillfyspoon said:
Whilst its easy to dismiss car audio drivers such as HF and midrange units in favour of hi-fi or home items, I really believe that the best subs out there full stop are a few of the car audio ones.
They have a ton of money poured into the R&D because the market is so competitive and vast. What you'll find is the the best tech from the car audio subs tends to slowly trickle down into the hi-fi and home market. These guys lead the field.
Generally steer clear of SPL subs since they have been optimised for SPL over quality, its the SQ competition subs that you really need to look at.
They have advantages and disadvantages though, usually higher Fs which doesn't really mean a lot since you transform the response very easily and big excursion with excellent THD figures thanks to advanced motor designs.
They also tend to use more compact box's since they do have to fit in a car, so you could be pleasantly surprised at just how big you can go with a modest box - I had a 15" in 110ltr box.
Another downer is that most are dual voice coil, actually that can be a good thing since sensitivity is increased but then again if your running dual 2ohm coils, you really, really don't wont to wire these in parallel otherwise your amp won't last a movie let alone a few years. So you need sturdy bi-amping for a single driver.
I really couldn't hazzard a guess as to a decent £200 car audio sub for home use. I took a chance with the XXX and my mate took another chance on the Diamond D6, it worked out well for me and very well for my mate but all you can do is take an educated guess from modelling and looking at the TS parameters or better yet, speak to folks who've tried it before.
I modelled the SE12 in winisd and it had a -3 of 18hz in a 140l ported box. But the specs didnt have a xmax? I might go for the se12 with 250w plate amp
Careful with that kind of excurson from a 12" unit in a ported enclosure. 18hz needs a sub to move a lot of air and you'll quickly run into distortion and bottoming out at high levels.
Sealed is better for most of these drivers, look out for a highish Qtc of 0.4 - 0.6 for good results in a sealed box. 140ltr is a large box for a 12", with this you'd certainly have an infinite baffle loading (driver cone dominates the air mass) rather than acoustic suspension (air dominates the driver cone).
Personally I like a critically damped enclosure with a Q of around 0.5. They have a certain control and intelligebility that I just don't get with high Q designs.
Also in a sealed design, I'd cetainly say that the box construction is just as important as the driver itself. It needs to be fairly massive, especially the baffle and heavily braced.
If you can stretch to it the RE SX 12 v4 looks like it could be a good driver for home use. Personally though if £200 is your limit the AE AV12 is a very safe bet with a lot of good feedback. You'd be chancing it on SX 12 to be honest. If its at all possible I'd beg that you save for a Diamond D6. You'll be quite amazed at the performance - I was and as soon as I'm finished with some speakers I'm building, that's going to be my next project for sure.
Sealed is better for most of these drivers, look out for a highish Qtc of 0.4 - 0.6 for good results in a sealed box. 140ltr is a large box for a 12", with this you'd certainly have an infinite baffle loading (driver cone dominates the air mass) rather than acoustic suspension (air dominates the driver cone).
Personally I like a critically damped enclosure with a Q of around 0.5. They have a certain control and intelligebility that I just don't get with high Q designs.
Also in a sealed design, I'd cetainly say that the box construction is just as important as the driver itself. It needs to be fairly massive, especially the baffle and heavily braced.
If you can stretch to it the RE SX 12 v4 looks like it could be a good driver for home use. Personally though if £200 is your limit the AE AV12 is a very safe bet with a lot of good feedback. You'd be chancing it on SX 12 to be honest. If its at all possible I'd beg that you save for a Diamond D6. You'll be quite amazed at the performance - I was and as soon as I'm finished with some speakers I'm building, that's going to be my next project for sure.
Also forgot to mention:
Consider a Linkwitz Transform circuit and/or parametric EQ.
The parametric EQ is easy to solve since you can buy units such as the £70 Behringer DSP1124, with this you can get a flat response in your room resulting in much more natural bass.
Linkwitz transform takes a good and capable sub on to the next level IMO. What you can do is transform, hence the name 😉, your F3 point to really whatever you like within reason. 15hz is a good point and will improve you group delay and phase in the entire audible operating range of the sub.
This all doesn't come for free though, you need to use the sub in a sealed enclosure because of the excursion at these levels. You also loose SPL and power handling because the driver is going so low. That's the reason its best to use over engineered and excessive drivers with an LT circuit because they lap up this sort of stuff, lesser drivers will distort and bottom out quite easily.
Consider a Linkwitz Transform circuit and/or parametric EQ.
The parametric EQ is easy to solve since you can buy units such as the £70 Behringer DSP1124, with this you can get a flat response in your room resulting in much more natural bass.
Linkwitz transform takes a good and capable sub on to the next level IMO. What you can do is transform, hence the name 😉, your F3 point to really whatever you like within reason. 15hz is a good point and will improve you group delay and phase in the entire audible operating range of the sub.
This all doesn't come for free though, you need to use the sub in a sealed enclosure because of the excursion at these levels. You also loose SPL and power handling because the driver is going so low. That's the reason its best to use over engineered and excessive drivers with an LT circuit because they lap up this sort of stuff, lesser drivers will distort and bottom out quite easily.
phillfyspoon,
How much effort are you prepared to put in measuring parameters and building EQ circuits?
If you don't mind some work then take a look at the Genesis from www.shadowworks.co.uk should be within your budget and I can vouch for them 🙂
How much effort are you prepared to put in measuring parameters and building EQ circuits?
If you don't mind some work then take a look at the Genesis from www.shadowworks.co.uk should be within your budget and I can vouch for them 🙂
I just figured I'd pop in since the AV woofers were mentioned in the thread. The delays on the woofers are over now and Marshall Choong Audio does have them in stock.
http://www.mcaudio.co.uk/
John
http://www.mcaudio.co.uk/
John
Yes, you want to go with the AV series woofer. Lots of clean Xmax, and then enough Xmech to prevent damage should you let things get a little out of hand.
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