Overkill,
The only problem I am seeing is that you need the transmitter side of the WiSA to function. Where is the consumer side of this except in the high end audio side of things? Not many are going to pop for a B&O system. Now if they could get that into portable devices or there was a simple dongle to add that function to your computer, bring it on!
The only problem I am seeing is that you need the transmitter side of the WiSA to function. Where is the consumer side of this except in the high end audio side of things? Not many are going to pop for a B&O system. Now if they could get that into portable devices or there was a simple dongle to add that function to your computer, bring it on!
I think the difficulty in creating a unified thread is this:
There are two types here, those that try to satisfy the masses along the lines of Sonos,Bose and B & O; (I coin this 'Style-Fi' ), and those that love Hi-Fi ( the concept ) sadly the masses don't take much pleasing.
These two groups are pretty much at either end of the spectrum, whilst most folk are happy with musak, most would also be happy with Kef ceiling speakers, Kenny G playing, and decor like a hotel lift.
The hi-fi guys (most the fanatics here) don't seek that, they seek HiFi perfection, no matter how out moded, out of fashion and dated that may seem to others. The whole Hi-fi scene was largely killed off by bose etc, so there not alot of love lost here.
If don't in a hifi way, the distributed sound concept is very successful I believe, done in a sonos way....well it's all rather beige conformist rubbish (imho)
There are two types here, those that try to satisfy the masses along the lines of Sonos,Bose and B & O; (I coin this 'Style-Fi' ), and those that love Hi-Fi ( the concept ) sadly the masses don't take much pleasing.
These two groups are pretty much at either end of the spectrum, whilst most folk are happy with musak, most would also be happy with Kef ceiling speakers, Kenny G playing, and decor like a hotel lift.
The hi-fi guys (most the fanatics here) don't seek that, they seek HiFi perfection, no matter how out moded, out of fashion and dated that may seem to others. The whole Hi-fi scene was largely killed off by bose etc, so there not alot of love lost here.
If don't in a hifi way, the distributed sound concept is very successful I believe, done in a sonos way....well it's all rather beige conformist rubbish (imho)
Hi kindhornman and co, thought I'd share my current modest desktop rig.
System Overview: PC > optical cable > digital surround sound receiver (non-HDMI) > speakers (currently 4 separate channels in use).
Hardware: PC; PCI soundcard (was needed for the DTS Interactive/DD Live output driver for my system), digital surround receiver, speakers, cables.
Software: OS (Win8.1); Media player (eg JRiver/VLC Player etc)/ browser player (ie Flash Player)/games; Equaliser APO; AC3 Filter; DD Live/DTS Interactive sound card driver.
EqualiserAPO features that might be of interest:
8 configurable channels; IIR filters; latency reportedly capped at 10ms; reportedly infinte number of filters; configurable with REW.
Overall system features I like:
Can run active without a dedicated DAC and/or miniDSP/external digital crossover.
Plays any PC-based audio (not just media player based).
Only one digital to analog conversion.
No USB conversions.
Was able to transport highly-customised, individual PCM signals over optical.
Limitations:
Not sure if I2S-PWM is an option.
Lack of FIR filters (not bothered by this because I need low audio latency).
Quality of amplification and D-A conversion limited by receiver.
Happy to hear about any thoughts concerning the strengths and limitations regarding the above.
System Overview: PC > optical cable > digital surround sound receiver (non-HDMI) > speakers (currently 4 separate channels in use).
Hardware: PC; PCI soundcard (was needed for the DTS Interactive/DD Live output driver for my system), digital surround receiver, speakers, cables.
Software: OS (Win8.1); Media player (eg JRiver/VLC Player etc)/ browser player (ie Flash Player)/games; Equaliser APO; AC3 Filter; DD Live/DTS Interactive sound card driver.
EqualiserAPO features that might be of interest:
8 configurable channels; IIR filters; latency reportedly capped at 10ms; reportedly infinte number of filters; configurable with REW.
Overall system features I like:
Can run active without a dedicated DAC and/or miniDSP/external digital crossover.
Plays any PC-based audio (not just media player based).
Only one digital to analog conversion.
No USB conversions.
Was able to transport highly-customised, individual PCM signals over optical.
Limitations:
Not sure if I2S-PWM is an option.
Lack of FIR filters (not bothered by this because I need low audio latency).
Quality of amplification and D-A conversion limited by receiver.
Happy to hear about any thoughts concerning the strengths and limitations regarding the above.
Mondo,
If you think of a smaller system, not small as in Bose small, but a stand mounted monitor type of speaker with high quality drivers and a properly sized and tuned box this is what I would consider for this integrated system. A system using high quality power amps, electronic crossover which could also include passive impedance compensation, a DSP for frequency response correction, if needed and a DAC for connection to a digital source. I think you would also need to include in this development something like Rephase types of software to optimize this system. Would you still say this is Style-Fi? You could use the same basic block diagram with a very large system with 15" woofer, mid-range cone and even a compression driver if that was your preference. I don't see why a small system can't be built to very high audiophile standards without having to be a mega-bucks system in a fancy wrapper.
If you think of a smaller system, not small as in Bose small, but a stand mounted monitor type of speaker with high quality drivers and a properly sized and tuned box this is what I would consider for this integrated system. A system using high quality power amps, electronic crossover which could also include passive impedance compensation, a DSP for frequency response correction, if needed and a DAC for connection to a digital source. I think you would also need to include in this development something like Rephase types of software to optimize this system. Would you still say this is Style-Fi? You could use the same basic block diagram with a very large system with 15" woofer, mid-range cone and even a compression driver if that was your preference. I don't see why a small system can't be built to very high audiophile standards without having to be a mega-bucks system in a fancy wrapper.
Mrk7,
I think that your system is another variation of an integrated system that has a lot of adherents in this diy forum. While you have multiple components to do this I have to think in consumer terms of integrating most of what you have into the speaker enclosure, even though we are thinking of the same overall goal here. I know that USB is not what any of us would call audiophile in any real way, it is just one option to give those who don't have a system built with individual components and would enable all those who store their music on their cell phones which seems so common today. I would also think a memory stick storage system would be nice to include, but this now takes another level as you can't just play a memory stick directly. These integrated systems can be as simple as possible or more complex to include more options, but I agree that some will want to take your approach and have high end audio capabilities built into a computer system.
I think that your system is another variation of an integrated system that has a lot of adherents in this diy forum. While you have multiple components to do this I have to think in consumer terms of integrating most of what you have into the speaker enclosure, even though we are thinking of the same overall goal here. I know that USB is not what any of us would call audiophile in any real way, it is just one option to give those who don't have a system built with individual components and would enable all those who store their music on their cell phones which seems so common today. I would also think a memory stick storage system would be nice to include, but this now takes another level as you can't just play a memory stick directly. These integrated systems can be as simple as possible or more complex to include more options, but I agree that some will want to take your approach and have high end audio capabilities built into a computer system.
2016 will see major expansion of WiSA
Hi Kindhornman,
For sure the SOC (Solution On Chip) will come later in 2016 or maybe 2017 after the initial wave of early adopters have released their own brand WiSA compatible electronics.
At the moment the boards are approx 80cm square with 10mm height requirement, so pretty small....Easy enough for medium sized laptop or cool media hub, but too big for a phone at the moment.
At the end of the day, the advantages are so powerful that having the source of a min size is a very easy compromise for millions of consumers.....
Something smaller & cooler than a Devialet, but able to beam out studio grade uncompressed 24 bit 96KHz audio with plug n play fully automated set up and room correction to a very high standard and cross brand compatibility with TV / projectors / amplifiers / speakers / active speakers / DAC's etc....Thats exciting!
Cheers
D.
Hi Kindhornman,
For sure the SOC (Solution On Chip) will come later in 2016 or maybe 2017 after the initial wave of early adopters have released their own brand WiSA compatible electronics.
At the moment the boards are approx 80cm square with 10mm height requirement, so pretty small....Easy enough for medium sized laptop or cool media hub, but too big for a phone at the moment.
At the end of the day, the advantages are so powerful that having the source of a min size is a very easy compromise for millions of consumers.....
Something smaller & cooler than a Devialet, but able to beam out studio grade uncompressed 24 bit 96KHz audio with plug n play fully automated set up and room correction to a very high standard and cross brand compatibility with TV / projectors / amplifiers / speakers / active speakers / DAC's etc....Thats exciting!
Cheers
D.
Re Bluetooth, the elephant in the room is range.
I have a Bluetooth receiver/speaker that just makes 10m range.
I also have a 2.4G digital audio link system that does 40m.
Forget Bluetooth.
Dan.
I have a Bluetooth receiver/speaker that just makes 10m range.
I also have a 2.4G digital audio link system that does 40m.
Forget Bluetooth.
Dan.
Just about all digital images get saved as "lossy" Jpegs.
Just about all music lovers will be happy with "lossy" Bluetooth.
Just about all music lovers will be happy with "lossy" Bluetooth.
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Kindhornman,
I agree with your principle, the distributed sound system is scalable, from Sonos/waveradio nonsense, up to HiFi sized loudspeakers and beyond.
But, I feel the two are immiscible. In my opinion (and it is by no means correct), most folk who choose a distributed audio system do so because:
It is small, inoffensive, easy to conceal, or stylish. Sonos fits the bill nicely here, and they could probably do with all the DSP room correction available...
But do audiophiles seek the same? I'm not sure...most I have met have speakers that dominate the room, much like the HT guys have screens to match.
(anecdote: My late father whilst working at goodmans during the 70s, made 64 8" woofers and began to plan building two "walls of sound" and I grew up with 2x15" topped with quad horns in a typical Victorian front room.... Could these be wified??? What would I gain? )
In.the past I believe most that cross over in the region inbetween just bought Bose or B and O.
I agree with your principle, the distributed sound system is scalable, from Sonos/waveradio nonsense, up to HiFi sized loudspeakers and beyond.
But, I feel the two are immiscible. In my opinion (and it is by no means correct), most folk who choose a distributed audio system do so because:
It is small, inoffensive, easy to conceal, or stylish. Sonos fits the bill nicely here, and they could probably do with all the DSP room correction available...
But do audiophiles seek the same? I'm not sure...most I have met have speakers that dominate the room, much like the HT guys have screens to match.
(anecdote: My late father whilst working at goodmans during the 70s, made 64 8" woofers and began to plan building two "walls of sound" and I grew up with 2x15" topped with quad horns in a typical Victorian front room.... Could these be wified??? What would I gain? )
In.the past I believe most that cross over in the region inbetween just bought Bose or B and O.
Just so I personally am clear on my intentions I will put a picture of the speaker I am working on here. This is not a large system, not compared to my classic Altec Barcelona horn and 15" speaker that is sitting out in a grand room. At the same time it isn't a Bose sized speaker with a sub making a mini system. I am looking to give a quality speaker in a package size that is not going to get a guy in trouble with the wife, or something that women would actually find attractive in the right environment. You could use more than a pair if you are after a multi-way system for a large home theater if that is what you are looking for. It will have a classic RCA input for those who just want to attach them to their existing pre-amp output, a USB connection for those who want to attach a laptop or desktop source, and some type of wireless system for those who really want no wires to attach and have their music on some portable device. As far as the Bluetooth there are three levels of Bluetooth transmission from the CSR site with different ranges. As Max has noted the most common Bluetooth low powered setup has a very short transmission range, this is what is probably in most cell phones. But 10 meters is 30' and that is a fairly good sized room if you are streaming where you are listening. I could add the Wisa receiver but I think that would be premature at this point, perhaps as an option I could offer that until it becomes a common option for the consumer.
The picture shows a ported enclosure but I am working on changing that to a seal alignment with eq extension on the bottom instead of having to use a very long port or one with a to small diameter that I am afraid will have a huffing sound. They'll come in multiple colors so they can fit in different situations.
The picture shows a ported enclosure but I am working on changing that to a seal alignment with eq extension on the bottom instead of having to use a very long port or one with a to small diameter that I am afraid will have a huffing sound. They'll come in multiple colors so they can fit in different situations.
Attachments
Perhaps my situation was unique, but also perhaps useful.
When we began designing our home, 10 years ago (took 4 years to design), our audio requirements were:
1. Excellent sound in the living room.
2. Very good sound in our bedroom and offices
3. Adequate sound throughout the rest of the house and on the patio
All to be accomplished using as much of our existing hardware as possible, due to budget constraints.
What we ended up with:
KEF r101 in the living room, with 4 10" subs
KEF r101 in the bedroom with a 12" sub
My office has KEF r103.2 and a compact amp hooked to my computer.
My wife's office has KEF r101, but she isn't using them at present.
The main system is run off a Linux PC and does crossover for the living room sub, plus feeds line-level signal to the bedroom and my office, where my old Tandberg receiver drives Dayton ceiling speakers everywhere else.
This works very, very well. We get background music throughout, and when we want to listen seriously, the living room system works. The 40" tv is in the bedroom and the 12" woofer does well for HT, too. We're quite satisfied with the results.
When we began designing our home, 10 years ago (took 4 years to design), our audio requirements were:
1. Excellent sound in the living room.
2. Very good sound in our bedroom and offices
3. Adequate sound throughout the rest of the house and on the patio
All to be accomplished using as much of our existing hardware as possible, due to budget constraints.
What we ended up with:
KEF r101 in the living room, with 4 10" subs
KEF r101 in the bedroom with a 12" sub
My office has KEF r103.2 and a compact amp hooked to my computer.
My wife's office has KEF r101, but she isn't using them at present.
The main system is run off a Linux PC and does crossover for the living room sub, plus feeds line-level signal to the bedroom and my office, where my old Tandberg receiver drives Dayton ceiling speakers everywhere else.
This works very, very well. We get background music throughout, and when we want to listen seriously, the living room system works. The 40" tv is in the bedroom and the 12" woofer does well for HT, too. We're quite satisfied with the results.
Nice looking industrial design....Wives will be happy!
Just a thought on the forward facing port.
Would it not be possible to use a different bass / mid and run it in a sealed enclosure using your DSP to Eq the bottom end to give a tight deep response with superior group delay and transients to any ported design?
Getting rid of the port will free up more volume for the bass / mid driver.
One could even run a dedicated mid (6 inch PHL would work a charm in 2 or 3 litres of sealed air...
You would still have plenty of room for a sealed 6.5 inch dedicated bass driver?
Plenty of room on the rear panel to add in another small power amp board...
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Overkill,
For the exact reasons you are stating I decided to change this to a sealed enclosure. I will use eq to bring the -3db point back up to where it could be with a ported enclosure. I'm working with Pete on the Slewmaster thread to make some killer discrete amplifiers that can work with this speaker, a bi-amp system with enough power to work with these speakers. I did the original speaker development a round cone, I make the actual cone myself and just changed the shape to the elliptical shape to be able to narrow the face of the enclosure and still have the same sound. The boxes I did the original development work with were larger and were ported. The fs is 35hz and it is strong bass. the excursion on that speaker is designed to max at 1 1/4" p to p. they are serious speakers with my own motor design, lots of expensive Neo magnet material in the motor and a very long gap design with a short coil. The dome tweeter will be a Be design with again my own motor design. The original speakers I tested are loud enough that most would go running from the room at full output.
Perhaps I am attempting to pull off to much but I want to do something exceptional. I spent a long time getting the surfaces of that enclosure to look right and all the reflective surfaces to look as good as any Apple product or industrial design. I won't tell you how many hours of cad work went into that design, it was a real learning experience having to make surfaces work to that level. I also had to design for manufacturing and the design is done so it can actually be molded as you see and has internal ribbing and an integral frame for the cone driver so the motor goes in from the back and the cone assembly is dropped in from the front. The 4 screws on the outer edges of the dome tweeter won't be there, I redesigned it to have it attached from the inside so only the four center screws will be there, no way with the motor design to remove those last four screws.
For the exact reasons you are stating I decided to change this to a sealed enclosure. I will use eq to bring the -3db point back up to where it could be with a ported enclosure. I'm working with Pete on the Slewmaster thread to make some killer discrete amplifiers that can work with this speaker, a bi-amp system with enough power to work with these speakers. I did the original speaker development a round cone, I make the actual cone myself and just changed the shape to the elliptical shape to be able to narrow the face of the enclosure and still have the same sound. The boxes I did the original development work with were larger and were ported. The fs is 35hz and it is strong bass. the excursion on that speaker is designed to max at 1 1/4" p to p. they are serious speakers with my own motor design, lots of expensive Neo magnet material in the motor and a very long gap design with a short coil. The dome tweeter will be a Be design with again my own motor design. The original speakers I tested are loud enough that most would go running from the room at full output.
Perhaps I am attempting to pull off to much but I want to do something exceptional. I spent a long time getting the surfaces of that enclosure to look right and all the reflective surfaces to look as good as any Apple product or industrial design. I won't tell you how many hours of cad work went into that design, it was a real learning experience having to make surfaces work to that level. I also had to design for manufacturing and the design is done so it can actually be molded as you see and has internal ribbing and an integral frame for the cone driver so the motor goes in from the back and the cone assembly is dropped in from the front. The 4 screws on the outer edges of the dome tweeter won't be there, I redesigned it to have it attached from the inside so only the four center screws will be there, no way with the motor design to remove those last four screws.
My experience of wired for sound home systems is akin to that of jplesset.
Mahoosive living room speakers, rip off BBC monitors courtesy of Goodmans licence and custom modified by my father, b110 sized Goodmans wide rangers in the bathroom and bedroom ceilings. Spoiled I guess 😉
What I like:
Neat design (narrow baffle may ruffle purists, but I like)
Elliptical driver (not enough of these outside car audio and most of those suck)
RCA input (though balanced XLR wouldn't offend either)
Huge xmax (although if driven hard I'm fairly sure garbled miss would result regardless of DSP and especially with something like a Linkwitz transform)
Closed box (room.integration should be nicer to deal with using EQ Dsp or analogue)
Is Modbus TCPIP or another wired digital connection feasible? Or is this strictly wireless?
(I like this thread. Its making me think how i would implement a total home audio system. So excuse me of I go OTT, and tell me I'm not being constructive if you feel that's the case. I'm not here to derail threads, but I've never thought hard about how I would approach this 🙂)
Mahoosive living room speakers, rip off BBC monitors courtesy of Goodmans licence and custom modified by my father, b110 sized Goodmans wide rangers in the bathroom and bedroom ceilings. Spoiled I guess 😉
What I like:
Neat design (narrow baffle may ruffle purists, but I like)
Elliptical driver (not enough of these outside car audio and most of those suck)
RCA input (though balanced XLR wouldn't offend either)
Huge xmax (although if driven hard I'm fairly sure garbled miss would result regardless of DSP and especially with something like a Linkwitz transform)
Closed box (room.integration should be nicer to deal with using EQ Dsp or analogue)
Is Modbus TCPIP or another wired digital connection feasible? Or is this strictly wireless?
(I like this thread. Its making me think how i would implement a total home audio system. So excuse me of I go OTT, and tell me I'm not being constructive if you feel that's the case. I'm not here to derail threads, but I've never thought hard about how I would approach this 🙂)
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No it is not strictly wireless. I want to have as many options as reasonable. I am thinking a direct usb cable from a computer based system or even from a memory stick if someone wants to do that. I like the idea of the Wisa wireless but I just think it is to early in the game to do that right now. The highest level Bluetooth with the best implementation can get real close to 16bit cd audio sound from what CSR says on their site.
I know some will not like the sharp edge for diffraction reasons but I had to make some compromises to make the enclosure this narrow. I looked at making it a large radius but the bottom line was I was just moving the diffraction around to a different frequency, I even did a design where the tweeter was set back for time alignment but it looks very different that way. I can use the dsp to do the time alignment so I thought that was a good compromise. I know everyone likes to talk about doppler shift caused by a long excursion but I have gotten no complaints. The original design has been used in the studio to mix down both movie sound tracks and music and they loved the speakers except for the fact they were not self powered. This was an award winning recording engineer who gave me critical feedback on the speakers and he thought they trounced the Genelec's and other small monitors for sound quality and dynamics. Just that he didn't want to drag a power amp around and didn't want to have them sound different every time he went somewhere and he would have had to use different amplifiers in each location. He also has his own studio but does do work in other studios when asked.
I know some will not like the sharp edge for diffraction reasons but I had to make some compromises to make the enclosure this narrow. I looked at making it a large radius but the bottom line was I was just moving the diffraction around to a different frequency, I even did a design where the tweeter was set back for time alignment but it looks very different that way. I can use the dsp to do the time alignment so I thought that was a good compromise. I know everyone likes to talk about doppler shift caused by a long excursion but I have gotten no complaints. The original design has been used in the studio to mix down both movie sound tracks and music and they loved the speakers except for the fact they were not self powered. This was an award winning recording engineer who gave me critical feedback on the speakers and he thought they trounced the Genelec's and other small monitors for sound quality and dynamics. Just that he didn't want to drag a power amp around and didn't want to have them sound different every time he went somewhere and he would have had to use different amplifiers in each location. He also has his own studio but does do work in other studios when asked.
I guess it depends what Genelec is compared and I'm not all that familiar with them, but I've seen and heard some beringers that were well reviewed andfpund some used and dirt cheap second hand, but they were so so. Not amazing. Bettering those monitors is a good aim, to be totally honest id expect it ( no offence meant )
The design is cool, almost Alien ware ish 🙂
Without knowing nearly enough, I would favour a wired hi speed digital connection, whether I used DSP or not. DAC, filters and amps all within the monitor, or at the wall interface, ot a combination (probably both)
Ive been learning and playing with HMIs for SCADA type monitor and control datalogging etc. A wallmounted touch screen HMI media player interface, thru ethernet/low.wire count digi connection between room.controls.
There is of course no reason why this couldn't be wireless,but ethernet and similar wired connections just seem to offer far better data speed and reliability.
The design is cool, almost Alien ware ish 🙂
Without knowing nearly enough, I would favour a wired hi speed digital connection, whether I used DSP or not. DAC, filters and amps all within the monitor, or at the wall interface, ot a combination (probably both)
Ive been learning and playing with HMIs for SCADA type monitor and control datalogging etc. A wallmounted touch screen HMI media player interface, thru ethernet/low.wire count digi connection between room.controls.
There is of course no reason why this couldn't be wireless,but ethernet and similar wired connections just seem to offer far better data speed and reliability.
Now we need to attract those with the skills in dac's and dsp over to the thread. I don't know much of anything how you do the xo with a dsp, that would be nice. I originally thought to do the xo in the analog stage with a Saleen-Key type circuit but it seems going to a dsp is the way to do today. I'll go over to the Rephase thread and invite some to come over and give some advise.
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