I would like to start a new thread unifying all the different parts of a modern active loudspeaker development. A thread that brings together the use of active crossovers, amplifier, dsp and dac, Bluetooth and other connectivity and everything else needed to create a modern active speaker system for today's users of modern storage devices whether PC based, Cell phone or any other electronic storage and application of all of these disparate function in one unified place. Anybody who wants to work in this area or can contribute would be welcome.
OK, I think I've got everything in your list covered in these speakers I'm building for my wife. But are you sure this discussion belongs in "Multi-Way"? 
After all, it's a 20-channel Amp/DSP design for a line array with software-programmable curvature (delays on each channel). I think it would make more sense to talk about the line array aspects in a line array or HE forum, and to discuss the DSP/Amps/thermal/interface issues in an active speaker forum. The fact that it is a multi-way speaker seems a bit superficial compared to all of the other interesting issues to discuss.
Edit: the description for the Multi-Way forum says: "Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers" This speaker is not conventional and it doesn't use a crossover, so this discussion definitely does not belong in this subforum. I guess I'll just keep it to myself
After all, it's a 20-channel Amp/DSP design for a line array with software-programmable curvature (delays on each channel). I think it would make more sense to talk about the line array aspects in a line array or HE forum, and to discuss the DSP/Amps/thermal/interface issues in an active speaker forum. The fact that it is a multi-way speaker seems a bit superficial compared to all of the other interesting issues to discuss.
Edit: the description for the Multi-Way forum says: "Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers" This speaker is not conventional and it doesn't use a crossover, so this discussion definitely does not belong in this subforum. I guess I'll just keep it to myself
Last edited:
The way I see it is that if every driver there receives an unfiltered full-range signal it belongs in the 'Full Range' subforum but if the drivers receive different band-passed signals it belongs right here.
It doesn't matter if the signal is split using caps'n'coils at speaker level or at line level before the amps or digitally in dsp before dac and amps. They are all multi-way systems.
It doesn't matter if the signal is split using caps'n'coils at speaker level or at line level before the amps or digitally in dsp before dac and amps. They are all multi-way systems.
Neil,
That was my trepidation when I looked for a place to put this. There really isn't a place for this thread that fits, it covers so many areas but it is something many of us are working on or contemplating. If you put it under the amplifier threads it doesn't fit either. Where to have an inclusive thread like this is the question? Whether a line array or a multi-way or even a full range speaker it shouldn't really matter in how to integrate all these disparate functions.
That was my trepidation when I looked for a place to put this. There really isn't a place for this thread that fits, it covers so many areas but it is something many of us are working on or contemplating. If you put it under the amplifier threads it doesn't fit either. Where to have an inclusive thread like this is the question? Whether a line array or a multi-way or even a full range speaker it shouldn't really matter in how to integrate all these disparate functions.
Pallas,
It is just another input that many want to use with an active speaker system. An all in one system where all you need is supply the source material. USB input to a dac would be another input that can be used. I know most diy'ers want to do everything as separate components but some of use are trying to integrate everything into a powered speaker so a user just has to supply the source.
It is just another input that many want to use with an active speaker system. An all in one system where all you need is supply the source material. USB input to a dac would be another input that can be used. I know most diy'ers want to do everything as separate components but some of use are trying to integrate everything into a powered speaker so a user just has to supply the source.
The last active speakers I made had Bluetooth audio. The picture shows a plate amp with two 20W ADAU1592 amps and a programmable analog crossover with BSC. The Bluetooth module is on the left.
Bluetooth audio is quickly replacing the iPod dock. Whether or not you approve of lossy streaming audio is irrelevant--it actually works very well and there are many people who find the quality quite acceptable. Bluetooth audio is expected to be a multi-billion dollar market and there are many experimenters who want to DIY this capability.
Neil
thanks for that post. I understand like anything else in audio there are different levels of implementation and the same holds true for Bluetooth. Does Bluetooth have to be lossy or is that just the lowest level of the implementation? Like MP3 quality there are different levels of compression and loss, higher bit rates vs the lowest workable levels which I can't listen to.
thanks for that post. I understand like anything else in audio there are different levels of implementation and the same holds true for Bluetooth. Does Bluetooth have to be lossy or is that just the lowest level of the implementation? Like MP3 quality there are different levels of compression and loss, higher bit rates vs the lowest workable levels which I can't listen to.
Hi Kindhornman,
I am posting here to boost the support for the new threads request you posted on.....I would like to see a new dedicated catagory for Line Array systems which utilise DSP and solid state amplifiers.....
This category would also be good for wireless soundbars as much of the technology is similar in both systems.
On a technical note, I am working with the WiSA boards and will have WiSA connectivity available on my loudspeakers, soundbars and subwoofers later this year.
As I posted some WiSA info about a year ago I wont repeat it all hear....Suffice to say it sounds better than my solid core silver interconnects, loudspeaker cables.....Never mind the convenience feel the sound quality!!
Cheers
Derek.
I am posting here to boost the support for the new threads request you posted on.....I would like to see a new dedicated catagory for Line Array systems which utilise DSP and solid state amplifiers.....
This category would also be good for wireless soundbars as much of the technology is similar in both systems.
On a technical note, I am working with the WiSA boards and will have WiSA connectivity available on my loudspeakers, soundbars and subwoofers later this year.
As I posted some WiSA info about a year ago I wont repeat it all hear....Suffice to say it sounds better than my solid core silver interconnects, loudspeaker cables.....Never mind the convenience feel the sound quality!!
Cheers
Derek.
There are a number of Bluetooth formats and data rates, but usually Bluetooth is limited to about 2Mbit/s. If you are trying to send stereo 24-bit audio at 44KHz, with framing and buffering overhead you will have over 2Mbit/s, so some compression is required.
A fairly new compression standard that is catching on for Bluetooth audio is aptX. It's not a "perceptual encoder" like MP3, but is instead a time domain algorithm. The board that I used supports aptX, and I believe that's how the audio is sent from our PC to those speakers. The quality is certainly acceptable for casual listening. Here is a link to one aptX audio quality test--I'm sure there are others.
There is an aptX-lossless standard, but I don't know whether it can be sent via Bluetooth.
Last edited:
Why compromise....?
Guys,
I posted about WiSA over a year ago when there were only a few brave companies backing them....Now look at the list....The Wireless Speaker and Audio (WiSA®)Association
Its game over in the world of wireless....
Simply put if you are developing any products with any wireless aspirations your product will be outdated before you get your first production run finished....
If its not WiSA its history.....!
24 bit / 96 KHz times 8 channels per board....Stackable boards give 64 channels or more...
Zero lip sync issues as less than 5ms latency end to end .....
Ultra low jitter with clocked I2S in and out.....
Fully automated and calibrated speaker set up at the touch of a button
DSP with crossover / Eq / delay / levels etc....
The website has the whole story, I urge you to take a look!
As a final endorsement check out electronics .....
If Bruno and his team of digital genius's are using it in their latest high end studio monitors you can be sure its special....If you cant beat them join them!!
Cheers
Derek.
PS I am in no way ascociated with WiSA, I simply believe its the only wireless game in town and hope you dont miss the boat with blu tooth and apt X etc!
Guys,
I posted about WiSA over a year ago when there were only a few brave companies backing them....Now look at the list....The Wireless Speaker and Audio (WiSA®)Association
Its game over in the world of wireless....
Simply put if you are developing any products with any wireless aspirations your product will be outdated before you get your first production run finished....
If its not WiSA its history.....!
24 bit / 96 KHz times 8 channels per board....Stackable boards give 64 channels or more...
Zero lip sync issues as less than 5ms latency end to end .....
Ultra low jitter with clocked I2S in and out.....
Fully automated and calibrated speaker set up at the touch of a button
DSP with crossover / Eq / delay / levels etc....
The website has the whole story, I urge you to take a look!
As a final endorsement check out electronics .....
If Bruno and his team of digital genius's are using it in their latest high end studio monitors you can be sure its special....If you cant beat them join them!!
Cheers
Derek.
PS I am in no way ascociated with WiSA, I simply believe its the only wireless game in town and hope you dont miss the boat with blu tooth and apt X etc!
Except the undisputed leader in wireless right now is Sonos, and they are conspicuously missing from the list of WiSA supporters
.I've been watching WiSA after the early Summit products were released. It's a good standard, but the implementation cost may end up being prohibitive. Also, I'm not convinced they have solved the latency issues for multichannel WiFi audio. But that list of supporters is impressive, so it's certainly a standard worth monitoring.
Neil.
Thanks for the information. The funny thing is I was just reading last night the CSR page on the aptX chipset and limitations to what it can do. As far as Bluetooth goes this seems to be as good as it gets at this point. I have been on CSR's mail list for about a year and get every single update to all they are doing, it gets to be a bit much at times, technical information about solder and every other things you can think of. The problems seems to be even with some things like cell phones that have the matching chipset the aptX functions are not enabled by default so you will get the lowest quality by default.
Derek,
Thanks for the information. I'll have to look at that information carefully. My first question would be about what devices would have this technology installed as a transmitting function? If you have to implement this on both ends, sending and receiving and the consumer doesn't have any devices with this in them then it is rather moot for a consumer application where the source is a cell phone or any other source. That is one of the problems with all this, though there may be a better way what does the consumer have in their hands. A first implementation could be great but if there is no support by the large manufacturers of devices that can send something over the air you are just looking at the smallest of markets for a product, I wouldn't want to have to find those few who would appreciate a product with this feature, that would be difficult and you would probably go out of business before a new standard was adopted by the masses. I've been there and done that before, it just cripples you if you aren't one of the huge companies driving the industry. If Apple or Samsung put that in a phone they could do it and drive the industry, but if you or I tried that we would be toast! I will look at this carefully and find out what I can, but I am not interested in going down the audiophile route, I want to satisfy the masses with a great product. The addition of Bluetooth is only a way to give the consumer they already have in their hands a way to listen at a higher quality than they already can get with cheap systems. I will have a wired connection for both a typical line level input and also USB in some implementation. The wireless is just a concession to what is going on in the consumer market.
Thanks for the information. The funny thing is I was just reading last night the CSR page on the aptX chipset and limitations to what it can do. As far as Bluetooth goes this seems to be as good as it gets at this point. I have been on CSR's mail list for about a year and get every single update to all they are doing, it gets to be a bit much at times, technical information about solder and every other things you can think of. The problems seems to be even with some things like cell phones that have the matching chipset the aptX functions are not enabled by default so you will get the lowest quality by default.
Derek,
Thanks for the information. I'll have to look at that information carefully. My first question would be about what devices would have this technology installed as a transmitting function? If you have to implement this on both ends, sending and receiving and the consumer doesn't have any devices with this in them then it is rather moot for a consumer application where the source is a cell phone or any other source. That is one of the problems with all this, though there may be a better way what does the consumer have in their hands. A first implementation could be great but if there is no support by the large manufacturers of devices that can send something over the air you are just looking at the smallest of markets for a product, I wouldn't want to have to find those few who would appreciate a product with this feature, that would be difficult and you would probably go out of business before a new standard was adopted by the masses. I've been there and done that before, it just cripples you if you aren't one of the huge companies driving the industry. If Apple or Samsung put that in a phone they could do it and drive the industry, but if you or I tried that we would be toast! I will look at this carefully and find out what I can, but I am not interested in going down the audiophile route, I want to satisfy the masses with a great product. The addition of Bluetooth is only a way to give the consumer they already have in their hands a way to listen at a higher quality than they already can get with cheap systems. I will have a wired connection for both a typical line level input and also USB in some implementation. The wireless is just a concession to what is going on in the consumer market.
Agreed Kindhornman.
I'm right at the BOTTOM of the learning curve regarding 'active' and find the On topic posts interesting....
Maybe those posters could make posts about their info / toys and you link them in your first, get the ball rolling so to speak.
Moderators would then have something to watch grow.
I think it would be wrong to have a 'sub-forumed' sub-forum according to how many drivers, how they are implemented, colour etc because the IMPORTANT BIT (no pun intended) is that they use 0's and 1's to make them work.
Well a unified thread isn't a bad idea, though I am a dinosaur I guess.
Being a dinosaur, I'm not really keen on WiFi or Bluetooth streaming, and sonos are my idea of audio purgatory (I am still working on hardwiring every room.for sound rather than use wireless tech) but that's just me. I'm sure wireless sound has huge commercial potential, way beyond what we have seen so far.
What I am really enthused about is analogue active amplification, whether for line array, fullrange, FAST or conventional multiway speakers. LVCMOS Is my main gripe with DSP- Attenuate, DSP and then gain....makes no sense to me. Flexibility is great, though I don't need it, within reason. I try to design well to start, build, enjoy.
All that being said, I look forward to seeing info.in the thread that may open my eyes, (or persuade me to look)
Being a dinosaur, I'm not really keen on WiFi or Bluetooth streaming, and sonos are my idea of audio purgatory (I am still working on hardwiring every room.for sound rather than use wireless tech) but that's just me. I'm sure wireless sound has huge commercial potential, way beyond what we have seen so far.
What I am really enthused about is analogue active amplification, whether for line array, fullrange, FAST or conventional multiway speakers. LVCMOS Is my main gripe with DSP- Attenuate, DSP and then gain....makes no sense to me. Flexibility is great, though I don't need it, within reason. I try to design well to start, build, enjoy.
All that being said, I look forward to seeing info.in the thread that may open my eyes, (or persuade me to look
)
mondo,
I was contacted to interview for a position at Sonos, I said no, wasn't going to give up my proprietary IP and I didn't want to build mediocre products.
At the same time the consumers out there who aren't old enough to know how sound can be and want to use their portable devices to store their music is not something to ignore. I come from the speaker side of things so am also still learning all the things on the electronics side of things. I know about dac's and dsp and active xo's but to implement all of this into an active speaker is another thing. I think whether it is inside an inclosure or in separate components shouldn't change the principals or the final unification of all of this. This is what I hope this thread becomes, a place where all the disparate pieces can be understood and implemented by those who want to move forward from the past. We can't ignore digital and whether you control level in the digital or analog sense is just another of those choices you need to understand to make those decisions. I also hope those such as on the RePhase thread will come on over and help with the software that can be used with a dsp and how we can implement that into a system.
I was contacted to interview for a position at Sonos, I said no, wasn't going to give up my proprietary IP and I didn't want to build mediocre products.
At the same time the consumers out there who aren't old enough to know how sound can be and want to use their portable devices to store their music is not something to ignore. I come from the speaker side of things so am also still learning all the things on the electronics side of things. I know about dac's and dsp and active xo's but to implement all of this into an active speaker is another thing. I think whether it is inside an inclosure or in separate components shouldn't change the principals or the final unification of all of this. This is what I hope this thread becomes, a place where all the disparate pieces can be understood and implemented by those who want to move forward from the past. We can't ignore digital and whether you control level in the digital or analog sense is just another of those choices you need to understand to make those decisions. I also hope those such as on the RePhase thread will come on over and help with the software that can be used with a dsp and how we can implement that into a system.
Last edited:
Hi Modgenerator,
I am with you when it comes to being anti WiFi....As long as WiFi is defined as Sonus, blue tooth / apt X, or anything streaming over our domestic home hub / lap tops....
Even " High End" Tidal is an obvious sonic compromise....
When I switch on the fly between the same tracks, one played from my lap tops solid state drive via a standard USB out into a budget portable (Meridian Explorer) DAC or the same track streamed from Tidal but played back through the same cable and DAC there is an obvious glare and thinning of the sound from Tidal.
Connecting the same lap top into a WiSA transmitter board and my DAC input to the WiSA reciever board is a major upgrade over my USB / Meridian
set up....
WiSA allows you to stay in I2S right out of the solid state drive all the way through whatever DSP you care to implement (or just use the internal WiSA options) right up to the I2S input of your DAC....
All controlled by one master clock.....Bye bye jitter!!
The DAC output stage PCB can of course be right next to or part of the power amp input board....Or use a true digital amplifier(s) Watch this space for more on that one!
WiSA should be marketed to audiophiles as a NORDUST busting upgrade to the insanity of $$$$$$$$ cables.....I for one will be borrowing any high end cables I can get to demo how a WiSA system blows them out the water.....!!
The real world can just look at WiSA as B&O 's crowning achievement (they own the patents) and thank them for being able to unbox any WiSA branded Blu Ray player, any WiSA branded TV and any WiSA branded AV reciever and any WiSA branded loudspeakers......Then giggle their heads off as the components all communicate with one an other, set up levels, distances, Eq, crossovers and room Eq all in under 5 minutes....Bye Bye rip of installation costs!!
Resistance is futile!!
Cheers
D.
I am with you when it comes to being anti WiFi....As long as WiFi is defined as Sonus, blue tooth / apt X, or anything streaming over our domestic home hub / lap tops....
Even " High End" Tidal is an obvious sonic compromise....
When I switch on the fly between the same tracks, one played from my lap tops solid state drive via a standard USB out into a budget portable (Meridian Explorer) DAC or the same track streamed from Tidal but played back through the same cable and DAC there is an obvious glare and thinning of the sound from Tidal.
Connecting the same lap top into a WiSA transmitter board and my DAC input to the WiSA reciever board is a major upgrade over my USB / Meridian
set up....
WiSA allows you to stay in I2S right out of the solid state drive all the way through whatever DSP you care to implement (or just use the internal WiSA options) right up to the I2S input of your DAC....
All controlled by one master clock.....Bye bye jitter!!
The DAC output stage PCB can of course be right next to or part of the power amp input board....Or use a true digital amplifier(s) Watch this space for more on that one!
WiSA should be marketed to audiophiles as a NORDUST busting upgrade to the insanity of $$$$$$$$ cables.....I for one will be borrowing any high end cables I can get to demo how a WiSA system blows them out the water.....!!
The real world can just look at WiSA as B&O 's crowning achievement (they own the patents) and thank them for being able to unbox any WiSA branded Blu Ray player, any WiSA branded TV and any WiSA branded AV reciever and any WiSA branded loudspeakers......Then giggle their heads off as the components all communicate with one an other, set up levels, distances, Eq, crossovers and room Eq all in under 5 minutes....Bye Bye rip of installation costs!!
Resistance is futile!!
Cheers
D.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.