Loafmeat,
While I see the usefulness of a PC based solution for the consumer market this seems like a step to far. What I mean is that with this type of solution you must have a computer attached to the system for it to function, you can't remove the PC and still have a functional system. A dsp solution where you can pre-program the network functions then this step is eliminated. If a consumer wants to stream their music directly from something like a cell phone you wouldn't want to have to add that complexity. But for a high end home audiophiles system your solution has merit. There we can do much more complex functionality and even add digital room correction and many other functions that you wouldn't expect in a simpler self powered speaker system.
Thank you for your reply and offer of your solution. Now we just need to convert it into English for the rest of us who don't speak the language.
While I see the usefulness of a PC based solution for the consumer market this seems like a step to far. What I mean is that with this type of solution you must have a computer attached to the system for it to function, you can't remove the PC and still have a functional system. A dsp solution where you can pre-program the network functions then this step is eliminated. If a consumer wants to stream their music directly from something like a cell phone you wouldn't want to have to add that complexity. But for a high end home audiophiles system your solution has merit. There we can do much more complex functionality and even add digital room correction and many other functions that you wouldn't expect in a simpler self powered speaker system.
Thank you for your reply and offer of your solution. Now we just need to convert it into English for the rest of us who don't speak the language.
@Kindhornman
You are right, a PC has to be activate.
But I think loudspeaker setup today is not for the consumer market
It is something for hifi enthusiasts.
My setup is only a first step
Next step is to integrate the PC in a AVR.
For example with a Mini-ITX board.
The newest one have all onboard you need.
Or a mini HDMI PC like this:
Intel® Compute Stick
Intergrated in the AVR.
That would be a nice DIY project at the moment.
For professionals somethink like this existes as a PreAmp:
HighEnd Hifi Shop - ART&VOICE - 25 Jahre ehrlich + kompetent Trinnov Altitude 32, 3D-Sound Einmessprozessor HighEnd-Hifi-Shop
In future PC in AVR will come for the consumer market.
I am using this PC also as HTPC and file server (also from outside by DynDNS).
I often stream with it audio or video from the internet.
You can integrate bluetooth, wlan, lan, IR ....
HDMI 2.0 now is out with 32 Audio channels...
Its quite flexible.
And at least, if you have a PC available (and most people have) its for free.
Regards
You are right, a PC has to be activate.
But I think loudspeaker setup today is not for the consumer market
It is something for hifi enthusiasts.
My setup is only a first step
Next step is to integrate the PC in a AVR.
For example with a Mini-ITX board.
The newest one have all onboard you need.
Or a mini HDMI PC like this:
Intel® Compute Stick
Intergrated in the AVR.
That would be a nice DIY project at the moment.
For professionals somethink like this existes as a PreAmp:
HighEnd Hifi Shop - ART&VOICE - 25 Jahre ehrlich + kompetent Trinnov Altitude 32, 3D-Sound Einmessprozessor HighEnd-Hifi-Shop
In future PC in AVR will come for the consumer market.
I am using this PC also as HTPC and file server (also from outside by DynDNS).
I often stream with it audio or video from the internet.
You can integrate bluetooth, wlan, lan, IR ....
HDMI 2.0 now is out with 32 Audio channels...
Its quite flexible.
And at least, if you have a PC available (and most people have) its for free.
Regards
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Loafmeat,
I still remember Bill Gates telling us that the PC would integrate all of our home entertainment and every other aspect of our lives. We still aren't there and today all I see is Apple trying to make more devices do less and need to work together. The apple watch is a perfect example of a stupid dumb terminal that needs a cell phone to function at all.
The consumers out there are just so uninformed and manipulated by marketing with little real value added these days. At the same time many of these people have finally realized they don't really need a PC, they really only use them for surfing the net and watching pirated videos and music. There will come a time when audio is again a major force but we aren't there yet.
I think it will take some of use to show the way forward, what music can sound like with the current SOTA. First I just want a simple system that integrates some of what is already out there and then we can add more functionality. Better Wireless than Bluetooth is going to be required for audio purposes beyond using a phone in a car and connecting to funky wireless devices we have today. People now have such high quality flat screen technology and the large consumer audio companies are trying to sell them cheap soundbars for this purpose. It isn't much better than the cheap PC speakers that so many have grown up with in the last generation.
It is going to take a real revolution to bring high quality audio back to the masses. The market for just the audiophiles is ever shrinking, there are just so few real players left in the field that are doing anything innovative.
What Overkill Audio was proposing was what I think needs to happen but not at a cost of $10K just for a set of speakers, that can only be a very small niche market product. I want to create a system at that level with the basic speaker system and digital controls in the $1.5K range, that is more of what I think a consumer will pay, and that is still a stretch today. My feeling is if people will spend $500 on a new cell phone once or twice a year from Apple those people will pay $1,500 for a great speaker that will last for years to come. It has to be great though, not just a better speaker but something that makes you stop and listen, something compelling.
I still remember Bill Gates telling us that the PC would integrate all of our home entertainment and every other aspect of our lives. We still aren't there and today all I see is Apple trying to make more devices do less and need to work together. The apple watch is a perfect example of a stupid dumb terminal that needs a cell phone to function at all.
The consumers out there are just so uninformed and manipulated by marketing with little real value added these days. At the same time many of these people have finally realized they don't really need a PC, they really only use them for surfing the net and watching pirated videos and music. There will come a time when audio is again a major force but we aren't there yet.
I think it will take some of use to show the way forward, what music can sound like with the current SOTA. First I just want a simple system that integrates some of what is already out there and then we can add more functionality. Better Wireless than Bluetooth is going to be required for audio purposes beyond using a phone in a car and connecting to funky wireless devices we have today. People now have such high quality flat screen technology and the large consumer audio companies are trying to sell them cheap soundbars for this purpose. It isn't much better than the cheap PC speakers that so many have grown up with in the last generation.
It is going to take a real revolution to bring high quality audio back to the masses. The market for just the audiophiles is ever shrinking, there are just so few real players left in the field that are doing anything innovative.
What Overkill Audio was proposing was what I think needs to happen but not at a cost of $10K just for a set of speakers, that can only be a very small niche market product. I want to create a system at that level with the basic speaker system and digital controls in the $1.5K range, that is more of what I think a consumer will pay, and that is still a stretch today. My feeling is if people will spend $500 on a new cell phone once or twice a year from Apple those people will pay $1,500 for a great speaker that will last for years to come. It has to be great though, not just a better speaker but something that makes you stop and listen, something compelling.
@Kindhornman
We begin to philosophize.
In some points I agree in other not.
I think people want to hear a good sound.
But what is a good sound?
- it is individual and subjective
- it is manipulted by media coverage
- popular music is mostly electonical and not with "natural" instruments. Also for example an electric guitar.
- most people like rythm, a good voice and BASS, BASS, BASS.
Maybe there is a natural sound. That means that a real instument or voice sounds in the same way in your loudspeaker as live without any electronic.
But that is not needed for the most people.
The sound coming out with all electronic manipulation at the end has to be "subjective" good. Live and/or in your home loudspeaker.
I think no one can tell you how is the original sound of Mark Knopflers E-guitar. I like the sound very much but on each equipment and in each room or concert hall it will be a little bit different.
The point is for my proposal. If you have a complete computer in your AVR you can fine tuning the sound to your individual needs. In some AVR you can do it today as well but not in such detail.
And it can be cheap as I showed up.
regards
We begin to philosophize.
In some points I agree in other not.
I think people want to hear a good sound.
But what is a good sound?
- it is individual and subjective
- it is manipulted by media coverage
- popular music is mostly electonical and not with "natural" instruments. Also for example an electric guitar.
- most people like rythm, a good voice and BASS, BASS, BASS.
Maybe there is a natural sound. That means that a real instument or voice sounds in the same way in your loudspeaker as live without any electronic.
But that is not needed for the most people.
The sound coming out with all electronic manipulation at the end has to be "subjective" good. Live and/or in your home loudspeaker.
I think no one can tell you how is the original sound of Mark Knopflers E-guitar. I like the sound very much but on each equipment and in each room or concert hall it will be a little bit different.
The point is for my proposal. If you have a complete computer in your AVR you can fine tuning the sound to your individual needs. In some AVR you can do it today as well but not in such detail.
And it can be cheap as I showed up.
regards
Kindhornman,
About the Grimm Audio speakers mentioned on the Beyond the Ariel thread...
You mentioned:
While I agree not to see the price point of this product it IS actually a very "fitting" example for this thread. I don't agree that it is just another pretty box with Seas drivers like so many others.
If you read the article and look at the measurements it shows it does about all that has been talked about in this thread. The article explains the use of internal amplifiers (Hypex Ncore) and talks about the connectivity of the speakers. It also shows a time coherent STEP response not often seen on commercial products.
Browsing their site a bit further also offers a paper showing some of the background of the speaker design choices.
http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/speakers.pdf
Quite revealing information in that paper. Mostly using IIR EQ to straigten out the FR. Limited use of FIR (to prevent ringing), doing a similar job as what RePhase can do for you to make a LR4 crossover phase linear.
It seemed to fit right in this thread to demonstrate a way how one can incorporate DSP actively in a speaker. From the reviews one would say they did a good job.
Nothing that really shows where the pricing comes from though, that part probably has more to do with the nature of building the speakers. It isn't a mass product but non the less quite a good example of how an active speaker CAN be done. Hookup a (or multiple) source(s) and you're done. The speakers do the rest.
Do your speakers this way at an attractive price point and you should have a winner!
About the Grimm Audio speakers mentioned on the Beyond the Ariel thread...
You mentioned:
While I agree not to see the price point of this product it IS actually a very "fitting" example for this thread. I don't agree that it is just another pretty box with Seas drivers like so many others.
If you read the article and look at the measurements it shows it does about all that has been talked about in this thread. The article explains the use of internal amplifiers (Hypex Ncore) and talks about the connectivity of the speakers. It also shows a time coherent STEP response not often seen on commercial products.
Browsing their site a bit further also offers a paper showing some of the background of the speaker design choices.
http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/speakers.pdf
Quite revealing information in that paper. Mostly using IIR EQ to straigten out the FR. Limited use of FIR (to prevent ringing), doing a similar job as what RePhase can do for you to make a LR4 crossover phase linear.
It seemed to fit right in this thread to demonstrate a way how one can incorporate DSP actively in a speaker. From the reviews one would say they did a good job.
Nothing that really shows where the pricing comes from though, that part probably has more to do with the nature of building the speakers. It isn't a mass product but non the less quite a good example of how an active speaker CAN be done. Hookup a (or multiple) source(s) and you're done. The speakers do the rest.
Do your speakers this way at an attractive price point and you should have a winner!
Actually, the 25k EUR speaker seems to use the cheapest OEM variant of the Hypex UcD180 for mids and highs at least, rather than the Ncore.
Still, a very interesting design that I'd like to hear, though I do wonder how even the polar pattern actually is given the measurements review you posted. I wanted to copy its look, but with a 3-way top (6" concentric M/T, 8" midbass) for more even directivity. I find the shape elegant and the huge roundovers have to help with diffraction issues. My wife thought strongly otherwise, which is why we have rectilinear boxes in front of our living room with felt treatment under the grills for help against diffraction...
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wesayso,
I am not against the concept, in fact that is what I want to do. But to charge that kind of price for a set of speakers with built in power just doesn't sit well with me, and my speakers will actually have some custom drivers that I will produce. No commodity speaker components. I have a much lower price point in mind, still high compared to the tower speakers I see every week in the Sunday papers from JBL and others for less than $200.00 each, no power of course. I'll leave the very expensive self powered speakers to others, I don't want to spend 10x the money on advertisements as i do on actually producing the product to find that small market. Overkill Audio has the same concept that I have but wants to market into that smaller space.
I actually took his advise and am now teamed with two others from this site. They are real audio designers will real credibility from major audio companies that will remain nameless at this time. I couldn't do the digital design and development without this kind of help, I want something extraordinary without the extreme costs. I have to wonder when I see Bluetooth enabled speakers for less money than some will pay for a power transformer alone. I thank Overkill for turning me on to the WiSA wireless concept, I think that is a great step forward though it is still a very niche product right now. Hopefully it will become more of a standard moving forward.
I actually have about 25 pairs of round cone drivers that I made up for development of my cone driver. They won't work with my self powered design and I many let those go to others here on the diy site. I measured one the other day just to generate a file for someone else to look at. They are 7" diameter frames but I call them 6 1/2" drivers just because of the actual cone diameter that more closely matches a typical 6 1/2". With no xo and in about a 1 1/3 cubic foot enclosure they were going down to about 20hz on the bottom and reached up to 10Khz before falling off real fast. I'd never use them that way but someone looking for a great bass/mid could build a very nice two way system. I tuned my boxes for about 35hz on the bottom and cut them at 2.5Khz on top. I just don't have any idea what people would pay for something like that? I'm thinking since I have to build them up with the components I have that about $200.00 each would be fair. Some may not like that the frames are a gold colored frame, they are powder coated and could be painted over I guess.
I'm still actively working on bringing my design to market, once the digital side of things are sorted out I will move this all forward.
Steven
I am not against the concept, in fact that is what I want to do. But to charge that kind of price for a set of speakers with built in power just doesn't sit well with me, and my speakers will actually have some custom drivers that I will produce. No commodity speaker components. I have a much lower price point in mind, still high compared to the tower speakers I see every week in the Sunday papers from JBL and others for less than $200.00 each, no power of course. I'll leave the very expensive self powered speakers to others, I don't want to spend 10x the money on advertisements as i do on actually producing the product to find that small market. Overkill Audio has the same concept that I have but wants to market into that smaller space.
I actually took his advise and am now teamed with two others from this site. They are real audio designers will real credibility from major audio companies that will remain nameless at this time. I couldn't do the digital design and development without this kind of help, I want something extraordinary without the extreme costs. I have to wonder when I see Bluetooth enabled speakers for less money than some will pay for a power transformer alone. I thank Overkill for turning me on to the WiSA wireless concept, I think that is a great step forward though it is still a very niche product right now. Hopefully it will become more of a standard moving forward.
I actually have about 25 pairs of round cone drivers that I made up for development of my cone driver. They won't work with my self powered design and I many let those go to others here on the diy site. I measured one the other day just to generate a file for someone else to look at. They are 7" diameter frames but I call them 6 1/2" drivers just because of the actual cone diameter that more closely matches a typical 6 1/2". With no xo and in about a 1 1/3 cubic foot enclosure they were going down to about 20hz on the bottom and reached up to 10Khz before falling off real fast. I'd never use them that way but someone looking for a great bass/mid could build a very nice two way system. I tuned my boxes for about 35hz on the bottom and cut them at 2.5Khz on top. I just don't have any idea what people would pay for something like that? I'm thinking since I have to build them up with the components I have that about $200.00 each would be fair. Some may not like that the frames are a gold colored frame, they are powder coated and could be painted over I guess.
I'm still actively working on bringing my design to market, once the digital side of things are sorted out I will move this all forward.
Steven
No problem Steven,
I just thought the concept as a whole was too interesting to ignore. I agree on the price though. That's quite a price to pay and although I like the concept, the distortion figures weren't sweeping me of my feet.
I just thought it would be an excellent example as a concept for this thread. Besides the price point. Especially after seeing the published STEP. Not something we see every day in commercial speakers.
Good to read you're getting the help you need! I do hope you'll succeed in this venture.
Ronald
I just thought the concept as a whole was too interesting to ignore. I agree on the price though. That's quite a price to pay and although I like the concept, the distortion figures weren't sweeping me of my feet.
I just thought it would be an excellent example as a concept for this thread. Besides the price point. Especially after seeing the published STEP. Not something we see every day in commercial speakers.
Good to read you're getting the help you need! I do hope you'll succeed in this venture.
Ronald
and here again : I surmise they DSP with tim delay : acoustics
But if the micro dynamics is maybe good, the problem of real dynamic is not solved with all the compressed reccording we have in the low frequencies, in the highs as well ! Little or big speakers, our music stays compressed because the mastering made in studios ! That's why a simple 90 DB max dynamic range with my TDA1541 seems enough with all the red books we have or even with 24 bits reccording ! It's not sure their embeded dsp/dac do more than the actual Hypex active DAC, but I really don't know ! But who care as the real dynamic reccording are made for cinema only If I don't mistake !
But if the micro dynamics is maybe good, the problem of real dynamic is not solved with all the compressed reccording we have in the low frequencies, in the highs as well ! Little or big speakers, our music stays compressed because the mastering made in studios ! That's why a simple 90 DB max dynamic range with my TDA1541 seems enough with all the red books we have or even with 24 bits reccording ! It's not sure their embeded dsp/dac do more than the actual Hypex active DAC, but I really don't know ! But who care as the real dynamic reccording are made for cinema only If I don't mistake !
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Eldam,
As a speaker designer that is one thing we don't have any control over, the recorded material. These days it seems that most music is compressed so it sounds loud on the radio or internet even if there should be much more dynamic range. Perhaps we are just going to have to live with that unless we listen to the occasionally well recorded orchestral music or some other classic recordings. Vinyl never had that much range either so it is a shame that with the current digital recordings things haven't gotten better rather than worse on that count.
As a speaker designer that is one thing we don't have any control over, the recorded material. These days it seems that most music is compressed so it sounds loud on the radio or internet even if there should be much more dynamic range. Perhaps we are just going to have to live with that unless we listen to the occasionally well recorded orchestral music or some other classic recordings. Vinyl never had that much range either so it is a shame that with the current digital recordings things haven't gotten better rather than worse on that count.
High Steven, I'm pleased to see you're moving ahead. I mentioned in that post that supply precedes demand and you know that instinctively because you're entrepreneurial and i said once the demand is real competition takes over and price comes down.
Putzey had to compete with himself, so new company: Kii, that's got a nice little speaker - Kii Three - going to be half the price of that LS1.
Website is kind of bumpfy, kiiaudio.com/en/ , but the speaker ain't, although still pricey, @ 10K euro a pair, if I understand the speculation.
Constant directivity, cardioid enabled, 2drivers front and back, 1 each side, 6 Hypex amps. lotsa DSP, FB from voice coil, 20x40x40 cm., analogue, digital, wireless inputs. Some kind of molded box, which means he has to charge less than LS1 cuz he's got a bigger investment, gotta move product, yada yada. Oh, yes, Seas drivers.
German review. Didn't really read it, makes my head hurt, but there's test graphs at the end, they like it. "Why hasn't somebody done this, already?"
http://kiiaudio.com/en/component/ph...ies.html?download=1:audio-review-test-09-2015
Going to show it at RMAF so you get a listen, if you want.
So why do I bring it up? Shortly, in a year or two, it's very possible that folk will be having a Holodeck in the living room or even the back yard. If I'm right and if the half billion [!] $s Google and Paul Allen and others have put in into this https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...gL-IBA&usg=AFQjCNEdd9WGBERRlpYrmVynhgVRuANlWw
is right, then what's it going to do to audio?
The argument about they're here-we're there is over.
Because they're here, along with everybody else at the concert!
Will the sound illusion be up to the visual?
Also, what's it going to do to HT?
I don't know if the winner will be ML or M$ or some one else, but probably it's going to be the one with the least clunky app and gizmo.
This is Magic Leap's 'cinematic reality' - Tech Insider
Stay lean, Steven.
Frank,
I've seen the speaker before. I think my enclosure is more interesting looking but that is my personal opinion. That is a lot of speakers in such a small enclosure and I'm not so sure i would want the rear firing speakers, I'm not sure that will work in many positions people are likely to want to place them. I want something that isn't as positionally sensitive. I see the clear enclosure and i actually have a rendering of mine but I don't think I would actually build one, I don't expect they would either. I'm attempting to keep things as simple as possible and give great sound. I know what mine sound like and nobody has complained about needing more bass or more level. I'm going to limit it to about 107db output with very low distortion numbers.
I've seen the speaker before. I think my enclosure is more interesting looking but that is my personal opinion. That is a lot of speakers in such a small enclosure and I'm not so sure i would want the rear firing speakers, I'm not sure that will work in many positions people are likely to want to place them. I want something that isn't as positionally sensitive. I see the clear enclosure and i actually have a rendering of mine but I don't think I would actually build one, I don't expect they would either. I'm attempting to keep things as simple as possible and give great sound. I know what mine sound like and nobody has complained about needing more bass or more level. I'm going to limit it to about 107db output with very low distortion numbers.
Those back and side speakers are all part of the cardioid constant directional system. So he gets good directivity from @ 300 Hz despite the narrow baffle. Apparently there are a number of software settings for placement and they can thus preserve the directional characteristic even with placement near walls and corners. Neat trick.
I'd like to measure the polar output. see how close to cardioid it actually is.
Like you, they've limited output which I think is smart.
Despite the foofoo website it looks like a good piece of gear. And it should be, given the price.
You're right to keep things simple as possible, I think.
So what happens to audio if display screens (including TV) are displaced by more immersive display tech that allows folk to move around?
We pushed both the Kii link !
WHat should be the average listening volume with those speakers (Kii, like the one involved in the thread) to preserve a subjectif feeling of dynamic and avoid the best we can the compressed thick music when we play too loud our systemes? 65 db ?
There is a niche for reccording ingeener to launch not compressed cd at 24 bits we the setup of Cinema or better (for the moment but if someone says to me it's better to have 20 bits or higher for my 90% red book Library, I keep my 16 bits TDA1541 chip, it has a subjective dynamic !) ! High resolution music with compression is a mess and a trap)
Kinfhormann, do you design for diy only or have you a brand, like some here ?
Thread subsribed
!WHat should be the average listening volume with those speakers (Kii, like the one involved in the thread) to preserve a subjectif feeling of dynamic and avoid the best we can the compressed thick music when we play too loud our systemes? 65 db ?
There is a niche for reccording ingeener to launch not compressed cd at 24 bits
we the setup of Cinema or better (for the moment but if someone says to me it's better to have 20 bits or higher for my 90% red book Library, I keep my 16 bits TDA1541 chip, it has a subjective dynamic !) ! High resolution music with compression is a mess and a trap)Kinfhormann, do you design for diy only or have you a brand, like some here ?
Thread subsribed
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Frank,
I have a very strong pull to use the KISS method of keep it simple stupid. In that regard as soon as you start adding a bunch of software options I think you lose that and the average consumer is going to mess things up. Not much different than back in the days when so much gear had 1/3 octave equalizers and people would really mess up the sound.
I'm no fan of OB enclosures or cardioid, I think it does make placement much more critical and then you do have to make those kinds of software changes. That really is not consumer friendly, it is more for the audiophile crowd which that product is obviously priced for.
With the price goals I have if someone truly wanted to do a 5.1 or 7.1 or even if we see movie sound tracks released in 9.1 a fairly well off person could purchase 5 or 7 of my speakers for less than the price of a pair of those KII speakers, you think about the cost of a surround system using their pricing model!
Some of my thinking on the design of the enclosure was to actually have a very limited baffle width so there wasn't as low a frequency baffle step response. Of course at very high frequencies you will have more directionality but we use that for localization anyway and there is really not much information of consequence up high anyway in most music. A different thought process than most use I know. Somewhat the inverse of an infinite baffle thought. Almost no baffle for reflection, directivity controlled by the device and not the baffle itself. That was also some of my thinking of the elliptical cone shape.
Eldam,
I am going to be selling in a direct marketing way through the internet, not a traditional brick and mortar store and no print type advertising. Online direct sales with no dealers, that cuts the cost to the consumer by at least 40% and in the audiophile market many times more than that.
I will however sell the round raw frame drivers and the dome tweeter when available to the diy crowd if they want to use the devices some other way. I'll support the diy crowd that way if they are interested. I'm not sure of pricing yet but it will be reasonable for the real cost it will take for me to produce those devices. Some may want to do a two way system and others may just want to use my cone driver as a mid-range in a larger system. I actually have designs using my cone and motor design in multiple sizes, from a small 3" up to a 10" but I haven't put any time into optimizing the different sizes. That can come later.
I have a very strong pull to use the KISS method of keep it simple stupid. In that regard as soon as you start adding a bunch of software options I think you lose that and the average consumer is going to mess things up. Not much different than back in the days when so much gear had 1/3 octave equalizers and people would really mess up the sound.
I'm no fan of OB enclosures or cardioid, I think it does make placement much more critical and then you do have to make those kinds of software changes. That really is not consumer friendly, it is more for the audiophile crowd which that product is obviously priced for.
With the price goals I have if someone truly wanted to do a 5.1 or 7.1 or even if we see movie sound tracks released in 9.1 a fairly well off person could purchase 5 or 7 of my speakers for less than the price of a pair of those KII speakers, you think about the cost of a surround system using their pricing model!
Some of my thinking on the design of the enclosure was to actually have a very limited baffle width so there wasn't as low a frequency baffle step response. Of course at very high frequencies you will have more directionality but we use that for localization anyway and there is really not much information of consequence up high anyway in most music. A different thought process than most use I know. Somewhat the inverse of an infinite baffle thought. Almost no baffle for reflection, directivity controlled by the device and not the baffle itself. That was also some of my thinking of the elliptical cone shape.
Eldam,
I am going to be selling in a direct marketing way through the internet, not a traditional brick and mortar store and no print type advertising. Online direct sales with no dealers, that cuts the cost to the consumer by at least 40% and in the audiophile market many times more than that.
I will however sell the round raw frame drivers and the dome tweeter when available to the diy crowd if they want to use the devices some other way. I'll support the diy crowd that way if they are interested. I'm not sure of pricing yet but it will be reasonable for the real cost it will take for me to produce those devices. Some may want to do a two way system and others may just want to use my cone driver as a mid-range in a larger system. I actually have designs using my cone and motor design in multiple sizes, from a small 3" up to a 10" but I haven't put any time into optimizing the different sizes. That can come later.
Owen,
Of course the cost to make a electrostatic is much more expensive. You really don't have any off the shelf parts, everything is made for that device. Most people really don't understand how cheaply a dynamic driver can be made from commodity components, they are made by the 100's of millions a year and most speakers are just a conglomeration of parts from different manufacturers. Even high end companies like JBL/Harman do this, they may have something made in a different color or make a custom frame but all the other pieces are off the shelf. Very few companies actually make any of the components of a speaker. Once you move into something like an electrostatic you have to pay for all the development and the cost to make low volume production which makes the costs much higher. Many consumer speakers by very large companies cost no more than 10-20$ in the box ready to ship. Speakers are being made for 1-2 dollars a piece in China and Taiwan by the millions. I'm not talking about 1" speakers, those are made for pennies like you would see in the Apple sound sticks. You can make a 10" speaker for a couple of dollars.
Of course the cost to make a electrostatic is much more expensive. You really don't have any off the shelf parts, everything is made for that device. Most people really don't understand how cheaply a dynamic driver can be made from commodity components, they are made by the 100's of millions a year and most speakers are just a conglomeration of parts from different manufacturers. Even high end companies like JBL/Harman do this, they may have something made in a different color or make a custom frame but all the other pieces are off the shelf. Very few companies actually make any of the components of a speaker. Once you move into something like an electrostatic you have to pay for all the development and the cost to make low volume production which makes the costs much higher. Many consumer speakers by very large companies cost no more than 10-20$ in the box ready to ship. Speakers are being made for 1-2 dollars a piece in China and Taiwan by the millions. I'm not talking about 1" speakers, those are made for pennies like you would see in the Apple sound sticks. You can make a 10" speaker for a couple of dollars.
Many years ago, I worked for Infinity. Our model 1001 cost us about $20 each to build, sold for $149. Crew of 3 could build maybe 60 in a work day. The Servo-static 1 had electrostatic mids and tweets. We built the mids in house, by hand. Could maybe build 3 or 4 complete speakers a day, crew of 4. Retaol around $2000 a set including the 18" sub.
I think we paid about $12 for the 12" woofers in the 1001. CTS, Eminence, Becker were our suppliers then. Peerless tweeters, maybe $1 each? We used 2 tweeters. Add the cabinet, "crossover", and labor, and done.
I think we paid about $12 for the 12" woofers in the 1001. CTS, Eminence, Becker were our suppliers then. Peerless tweeters, maybe $1 each? We used 2 tweeters. Add the cabinet, "crossover", and labor, and done.
jplesset,
I produced the front baffles for the JBL XPL series of speakers for them. I was just talking about that on the Blowtorch thread. They were not the easiest company to do work for. I charge more for the molded baffle than some of their complete speakers in a box ready to ship. The quality level was nuts as they were going to Japan.
I produced the front baffles for the JBL XPL series of speakers for them. I was just talking about that on the Blowtorch thread. They were not the easiest company to do work for. I charge more for the molded baffle than some of their complete speakers in a box ready to ship. The quality level was nuts as they were going to Japan.
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