Vacuphile,
I agree that an analog xo is fairly simple to do. I am moving towards the dsp method as I also want to add digital connectivity.
I agree that an analog xo is fairly simple to do. I am moving towards the dsp method as I also want to add digital connectivity.
$1,500 to $2,500 RRP
At that kind of price, I think you will have to use an off the shelf ESS type solution.
I wrongly assumed you were going for something similar too electronics which will be approx $10,000 to $12,000 in the USA.
The good news you can do this all start to finish in 6 months!
Cheers
D.
At that kind of price, I think you will have to use an off the shelf ESS type solution.
I wrongly assumed you were going for something similar too electronics which will be approx $10,000 to $12,000 in the USA.
The good news you can do this all start to finish in 6 months!
Cheers
D.
Duh... you can go on forever, but room correction has been mentioned more than once as a "feature" on this thread. And if you read part 2 of my last post (below the picture) you'd see I'm not disagreeing here. Lets not make it more difficult than this. 🙂
DSP can cover much more than crossovers or speaker correction alone if we want it. But we'd have to know what we actually want from it.
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Digital inputs
Forgot to say...
Digital inputs just requires an input switching board and a good A to D.
Cheers
D.
Forgot to say...
Digital inputs just requires an input switching board and a good A to D.
Cheers
D.
Language like this in a technical discussion detracts from your message, as you may well understand. So, let me suggest how you to communicate in a more effective and agreeable way.
1) Avoid the use of confused language, words have meanings. Not mixing up 'linear' and 'minimum' phase would be a good start.
2) Develop fact based arguments. For example, you might point out that you measured the MiniDSP and found it lacking on a number of scores. Or, that you did controlled listening tests, resulting in significant observations that it failed in PRAT, etc. But how can you just put negative label on the MiniDSP, like you did, without any substantiation? What were you thinking? There are people behind it who developed it to a high standard and who's business it now is. They deserve better than mind farts like you ventilated. Both George and I did a lot of measurements on the MiniDSP,and we both use it. Pretty excellent overall. For all those considering the purchase of a well done IIR capable DSP, it works great. To do better will cost seriously more.
3) Point out your qualifications before making value judgements. For example, it makes a huge difference if a well known sound engineer tells an audience that everything went to shite since Genelec became the standard, or that it is some hobbyist who might have heard a Genelec play in a show room once or twice.
Overkill,
On some of my other designs I could easily justify that kind of price, I consider that an audiophile market speaker, you just don't see much of this anymore. The market is saturated with multiple companies vying for the few people left who will spend that kind of money. I have a friend who does very high end home theater installation, they will spend a fortune on the room and furnishings and even the video side of the equation, when it comes to the speakers they buy something cheap, I hear this so many times. I have my speakers that look like my avatar, they would be in the category you are talking about, at the same time I think i would do everything externally on those speakers and not try and put the electronics inside.
I'll look at the price for the ESS solution and see what that is. I will also consult with a guru from this site who will know about it all. He's designed many systems for JBL and others.
On some of my other designs I could easily justify that kind of price, I consider that an audiophile market speaker, you just don't see much of this anymore. The market is saturated with multiple companies vying for the few people left who will spend that kind of money. I have a friend who does very high end home theater installation, they will spend a fortune on the room and furnishings and even the video side of the equation, when it comes to the speakers they buy something cheap, I hear this so many times. I have my speakers that look like my avatar, they would be in the category you are talking about, at the same time I think i would do everything externally on those speakers and not try and put the electronics inside.
I'll look at the price for the ESS solution and see what that is. I will also consult with a guru from this site who will know about it all. He's designed many systems for JBL and others.
I would love to sit back at this point and see some true discussion on implementing many of the things we already talked about earlier. Wireless connectivity and usb or digital inputs from both a computer sound card and other digital media. I would like to see both analog and digital inputs for a self powered speaker. I am not saying a wireless only speaker, but one that has the capability to work wirelessly as well as wired.
Not many high end speakers sold
Hi Steven,
I agree, most big AV spenders spend on the V and not the A!
They spend £10K per leather seat but £1K per speaker.....
I believe a big part of this is due to the rip off prices and marketing BS that prevails in the loudspeaker industry.....
So many MDF boxes with a plastic pipes (ports), cheap drivers and "classic" passive crossovers.....
There is simply no sonic advantage paying £10K per speaker when all you are a bigger slab of MDF....
John Watkinson explains the technical as well as marketing "elephants in the room" in the attached docs.
I believe the Kii is getting close to the mark, but more needs to be done and I am enjoying playing my part!
I have added vacuphole to my troll / blocked list....
Cheers
D.
Hi Steven,
I agree, most big AV spenders spend on the V and not the A!
They spend £10K per leather seat but £1K per speaker.....
I believe a big part of this is due to the rip off prices and marketing BS that prevails in the loudspeaker industry.....
So many MDF boxes with a plastic pipes (ports), cheap drivers and "classic" passive crossovers.....
There is simply no sonic advantage paying £10K per speaker when all you are a bigger slab of MDF....
John Watkinson explains the technical as well as marketing "elephants in the room" in the attached docs.
I believe the Kii is getting close to the mark, but more needs to be done and I am enjoying playing my part!
I have added vacuphole to my troll / blocked list....
Cheers
D.
Cant help with a second project....No time!
Hi guys,
I think a simplified ESS, ( Tranquil Bass is doing something like this on this site) or R2R solution will be the cheapest solution.
You could also try approaching one of the smaller DSP design houses and exploring an OEM solution......Long term you would get your money back as you would own the design and your unit costs would be low if could secure approx 150 group buy customers?
I have to concentrate on my own DSP so I really cant offer any development time to another project...🙁
All the best
Derek.
Hi guys,
I think a simplified ESS, ( Tranquil Bass is doing something like this on this site) or R2R solution will be the cheapest solution.
You could also try approaching one of the smaller DSP design houses and exploring an OEM solution......Long term you would get your money back as you would own the design and your unit costs would be low if could secure approx 150 group buy customers?
I have to concentrate on my own DSP so I really cant offer any development time to another project...🙁
All the best
Derek.
All in one budget solution
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...-integrated-preamp-crossover-dac-project.html
This is a promising budget all in one solution and the guys are holding a good open forum discussion so still time to make your requests!
Good luck
D.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...-integrated-preamp-crossover-dac-project.html
This is a promising budget all in one solution and the guys are holding a good open forum discussion so still time to make your requests!
Good luck
D.
Kindhornman, this is exactly the struggle I have been going through in preparing my loudspeakers for marketing. All the things you mention may be highly desireable, but also a bit risky. Wireless connectivity would solve a lot of problems, because then all the USB and digital inputs could be serviced from one central location. But, it will also complicate matters and force you in the direction of offering a complete system. In addition, there are technical complications. Analog transmission, either by infrared of RF, will detract from the sound quality. Digital transmission would be best, but these work by sending packages, so to get the timing right is complicated. ITD's of 10uS @ 1 Khz are audible, so both speakers should be aligned within an error better than 10^-5 sec. This is not trivial.
So, for the moment, wired appears to be the best option, both for digital and analog. I am weary to build in too much into the loudspeaker. Speakers have long life spans. Everything you build into them renders them less future resistant. It will always be possible to place a break out box close to the speaker with wireless connectivity, if so desired.
So, for the moment, wired appears to be the best option, both for digital and analog. I am weary to build in too much into the loudspeaker. Speakers have long life spans. Everything you build into them renders them less future resistant. It will always be possible to place a break out box close to the speaker with wireless connectivity, if so desired.
I was discussing some of these ideas outside of here the other day. While likely not wholly relevant to this thread, I will ask the question anyway because of the technical assembly of readership and will drop it after this.
With the current near confluence of technologies that can be brought to bear here, what of the implications beyond the enthusiast listener.
Can any of this be leveraged to investigate opportunities to make peoples lives better in other ways - while as obvious as say a whole - house wireless phone loudspeaker, what of other less obvious implications.
Nobody who created the wireless router ever thought that the back emf could be use for personnel imaging through walls, nor cell phone cameras for basic microscopy and field diagnosis.
I realize this gets into some IP of others... but I am interested to learn and develop ideas beyond the current state.
With the current near confluence of technologies that can be brought to bear here, what of the implications beyond the enthusiast listener.
Can any of this be leveraged to investigate opportunities to make peoples lives better in other ways - while as obvious as say a whole - house wireless phone loudspeaker, what of other less obvious implications.
Nobody who created the wireless router ever thought that the back emf could be use for personnel imaging through walls, nor cell phone cameras for basic microscopy and field diagnosis.
I realize this gets into some IP of others... but I am interested to learn and develop ideas beyond the current state.
Overkill,
I understand that you are working on your own project and that there must be proprietary development that you would not want to share, that goes with the territory of developing a commercial product. Thank you for the link. I had already discovered that thread looking at what was on the forum.
I also started to look outside this site and found some extremely inexpensive simple diy boards with the ESS dac pre-installed. From what I am seeing by looking in the wild is that the cost of the components really isn't that expensive, it is truly the implementation that is critical and a board design and integration of all the functions seems to be where the cost will come from. Once developed there seems to be no reason that all of the functions we have talked about couldn't be done for a consumer product outside of the audiophile market.
Vacuphile,
I am in total agreement, isn't that nice, that wired connections between speakers is the preferred method for sound quality, it just removes so many issues. I look at wireless only in the realm of a source signal at this point, using a cell phone or whatever a user may have, even from a computer sound card output to a pair of speakers, I also think that a usb link for a computer connection would be nice for those who don't use high end sound cards.
I see from looking at the Wisa website that it is indeed being installed in more products all the time, the one that caught my eye was LG, if it gets into phones that will be a big step forward over the Bluetooth standard.
Here is a link to a really cheap board with an ESS dac already installed. It may well be junk but it shows how cheaply some of this can be done if you do know what you are doing. I know it is simplistic but I just wanted to post it. The site has many other kits for those who want to experiment without spending a lot of money.
24Bit/192KHz ES9023 DAC, I2S input, Ultra Low Noise Regulator - DIYINHK
Again Vacuphile I am with you on keeping the speaker side of things as simple as possible, all the secondary functions should be outside the enclosure so at a later time things can be added or updated as things change and new things become available.
ps. Though it seem a heretical thing to do I am thinking that a simple TT riaa circuit and preamp would be great for those who are again using vinyl as a source so you could just run two interconnects from the turntable directly into the speakers, not sure if that is sane or not but it was a thought.
I understand that you are working on your own project and that there must be proprietary development that you would not want to share, that goes with the territory of developing a commercial product. Thank you for the link. I had already discovered that thread looking at what was on the forum.
I also started to look outside this site and found some extremely inexpensive simple diy boards with the ESS dac pre-installed. From what I am seeing by looking in the wild is that the cost of the components really isn't that expensive, it is truly the implementation that is critical and a board design and integration of all the functions seems to be where the cost will come from. Once developed there seems to be no reason that all of the functions we have talked about couldn't be done for a consumer product outside of the audiophile market.
Vacuphile,
I am in total agreement, isn't that nice, that wired connections between speakers is the preferred method for sound quality, it just removes so many issues. I look at wireless only in the realm of a source signal at this point, using a cell phone or whatever a user may have, even from a computer sound card output to a pair of speakers, I also think that a usb link for a computer connection would be nice for those who don't use high end sound cards.
I see from looking at the Wisa website that it is indeed being installed in more products all the time, the one that caught my eye was LG, if it gets into phones that will be a big step forward over the Bluetooth standard.
Here is a link to a really cheap board with an ESS dac already installed. It may well be junk but it shows how cheaply some of this can be done if you do know what you are doing. I know it is simplistic but I just wanted to post it. The site has many other kits for those who want to experiment without spending a lot of money.
24Bit/192KHz ES9023 DAC, I2S input, Ultra Low Noise Regulator - DIYINHK
Again Vacuphile I am with you on keeping the speaker side of things as simple as possible, all the secondary functions should be outside the enclosure so at a later time things can be added or updated as things change and new things become available.
ps. Though it seem a heretical thing to do I am thinking that a simple TT riaa circuit and preamp would be great for those who are again using vinyl as a source so you could just run two interconnects from the turntable directly into the speakers, not sure if that is sane or not but it was a thought.
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Optimal drivers in active designs
Hi guys,
sorry if I go a bit off-track wtr the last posts on dsp, but I have an interesting question for this thread....
Which parameter's values may indicate an optimal choice in active design?
I mean, drivers were built considering lots of trade-offs, and in many cases they involve to some degree an easy integration with passive crossover, efficiency issues and more.....
So assuming that
I hope it's clear enough...
Hi guys,
sorry if I go a bit off-track wtr the last posts on dsp, but I have an interesting question for this thread....
Which parameter's values may indicate an optimal choice in active design?
I mean, drivers were built considering lots of trade-offs, and in many cases they involve to some degree an easy integration with passive crossover, efficiency issues and more.....
So assuming that
- amplification is no constraint (in number of channels and power),
- frequency response may be smoothed (a bit) via dsp
- sealed design is preferred
- volume is an issue, so let's say for domestic purpose, no more than 150 litres and no bigger than 12"/15" for woofer (just as an indication in order to prevent obvious suggestions for 4 drivers 21" Infinite Baffle)
I hope it's clear enough...
Kukulcan,
From my point of view there really isn't a best fit speaker design for a self powered speaker. Let me take that farther. I am working on small speakers at this time, I have package size to worry about and also how the efficiency of the speaker affects the size of the power amplifier needed to drive the speaker to a predetermined sound level. So I have to place the amplifier and the network inside the enclosure and still have enough air volume and at the same time I must be able to dissipate the heat generated by the amplifier so heat sink area is important also.
Now in your case which is the opposite extreme with large 15" driver and probably at least a three-way system you will have multiple devices in a much larger enclosure. At the same time you would need much larger amplifiers to drive those speakers and much more heat to deal with. Those amplifiers if they are not class D, G or H are going to take a large volume of air displacement and large heat sinks would be necessary. I personally think that most people with a larger system would not go with an internal power amplifier solution, the typical solution I would see is an external set of amplifiers and electronics placed as close to the speakers input terminals as possible with very short jumpers to connect the components. I just don't see that you would have many self powered speakers in this size, you would see this in Pro-audio, stand mounted reinforcement speakers with built in power amps is fairly common.
I'm not saying as a diy project this couldn't be done and done well but I don't think I would worry about the speakers beyond what you would want to use if it was a typical passively networked enclosure. You are just replacing the passive network and moving the power amplifier inside of the enclosure. You must consider the added airspace needed to contain the power amplifier and also think about how to remove all the heat you could generate.
I hope this helps, there never is a one size fits all answer on the speaker side of things.
Now back to the electronics side of things.
From my point of view there really isn't a best fit speaker design for a self powered speaker. Let me take that farther. I am working on small speakers at this time, I have package size to worry about and also how the efficiency of the speaker affects the size of the power amplifier needed to drive the speaker to a predetermined sound level. So I have to place the amplifier and the network inside the enclosure and still have enough air volume and at the same time I must be able to dissipate the heat generated by the amplifier so heat sink area is important also.
Now in your case which is the opposite extreme with large 15" driver and probably at least a three-way system you will have multiple devices in a much larger enclosure. At the same time you would need much larger amplifiers to drive those speakers and much more heat to deal with. Those amplifiers if they are not class D, G or H are going to take a large volume of air displacement and large heat sinks would be necessary. I personally think that most people with a larger system would not go with an internal power amplifier solution, the typical solution I would see is an external set of amplifiers and electronics placed as close to the speakers input terminals as possible with very short jumpers to connect the components. I just don't see that you would have many self powered speakers in this size, you would see this in Pro-audio, stand mounted reinforcement speakers with built in power amps is fairly common.
I'm not saying as a diy project this couldn't be done and done well but I don't think I would worry about the speakers beyond what you would want to use if it was a typical passively networked enclosure. You are just replacing the passive network and moving the power amplifier inside of the enclosure. You must consider the added airspace needed to contain the power amplifier and also think about how to remove all the heat you could generate.
I hope this helps, there never is a one size fits all answer on the speaker side of things.
Now back to the electronics side of things.
... Are Not Created Equal
When buying a used car it’s always wise to at least look under the hood and have spent some time learning about the key questions to be asked of the salesman. For the conventional car of yesteryear these are almost second nature to most of us. Many know exactly what to expect when they lift the lid and enough about what keeps it rolling and stopping to make an informed purchase decision.
If presented with a thoroughly new set of up to the minute vehicles using next generation running gear, the very latest chassis manufacturing materials along with novel variants of fuel cells or some other exotic hybrid plug in arrangements. For the majority of folks those questions most apposite to making the best ownership choice would not be so readily identifiable. Even understanding the meanings of and consequences arising from any answers would be possible in detail only for a few.
It’s the same with audio DSP for active systems. There are far greater complexities hiding under this hood than most of us are prepared to spend time learning about. Even to the point of just understanding which areas are worthy of closer study; never mind accumulating enough knowledge to give confidence in determining which to buy. From my own experience and to my cost I can confidently say the multiple levels of complexity in a good audio DSP solution go well beyond the best textbooks, university courses and capabilities of many doctors and professors formally qualified and highly respected in this field.
Producing a system that works in all environments and always sounds good is not easy. Ask Bill Gates; Microsoft assembled a top notch team of qualified academics with experienced engineering support set them to work and then included their output in Windows. It was so unsatisfactory that even the memory of it is now lost to time. Had they been able to make it always work well; then the be all and end all of audio DSP would long since have been included with every copy of the world’s most well-known operating system. Even with all their power of branding and might of marketing the finest efforts of the brightest and best that money could buy still came to nought. Reputation and trust were yesterday’s way, now all we need to do is search the web where end user's views can easily be found.
There are not quite so many vendors of audio DSP products as makers of cars. But their product technologies fall broadly into two categories. i.e. hardware and software. The packaging and presentation of these being inevitably subject as much to fashion and style as to good sense and a properly informed and motivated perspective. The most fool-proof way to select an audio DSP product for an active system is by relying on independent reports to narrow the field and then taking it for a good long test drive; i.e. try before you buy.
We are already in the post commoditisation part of the computer and electronics industries existence. Because of this industrial maturity the tensions created by ever increasing component level integration along with attendant performance improvements when pitted against the market’s expectation for continuing overall system cost reduction creates ever shorter technology lifecycles. Think of IEEE 1394 AKA Firewire or your mobile phone. Today built in obsolescence is a given for almost any closed architectural assemblage of off the shelf modules. Consumers are already wise and daily getting wiser to this reality. They are looking for those companies hoping to make market traction with new offerings to be first and foremost serving the purchaser's best interests with those of shareholders taking second place.
One key element to consider in determining how to evaluate the suitability of an audio DSP product is ‘lock-in’. The claims of any vendor suggesting there are special benefits in their proprietary or ‘end to end’ solution should always be weighed against the inherent disadvantages. These are inevitable and each affects several domains of consideration. For example, integration; which may reduce physical footprint always restricts modular upgrading or component replacement and removes the prospect of open future-proofing at the hardware and software level. Leaving the purchaser wholly dependent on what may later be sub optimal offerings from the vendor’s then outdated system architecture.
In my view, part the audio industry’s centre of gravity is shifting from the loudspeaker having been seen in isolation as an object of separate function to it becoming essentially a computer peripheral just like any other. These are in general of fixed operability highly integrated, low cost and disposable. Some are high value items having interfaces compliant with international standards and openly interoperable. The latter preserves their value because this enables the whole system to improve over time it having not been packed with and linked to closed off versions of the day before yesterday’s out of date technology. In short; the degree of integration needs to be carefully thought through and open system level interoperability should never be sacrificed on the altar of self-interest and profit because it rarely works for long. Ask IBM.
If anyone's interested; apropos the above and with DIY as a focus I’ll say more about hardware concerns, software considerations, optimal functional partitioning or even share any relevant insights from my 40+ years of experience in senior scientific and engineering positions across all areas of computing systems design and implementation. Naturally, of course, convolved with a lifetime of passion for music and an enduring interest in all things audio. Just ask, best in class open interoperable active DSP systems are what hovers’ my craft.
When buying a used car it’s always wise to at least look under the hood and have spent some time learning about the key questions to be asked of the salesman. For the conventional car of yesteryear these are almost second nature to most of us. Many know exactly what to expect when they lift the lid and enough about what keeps it rolling and stopping to make an informed purchase decision.
If presented with a thoroughly new set of up to the minute vehicles using next generation running gear, the very latest chassis manufacturing materials along with novel variants of fuel cells or some other exotic hybrid plug in arrangements. For the majority of folks those questions most apposite to making the best ownership choice would not be so readily identifiable. Even understanding the meanings of and consequences arising from any answers would be possible in detail only for a few.
It’s the same with audio DSP for active systems. There are far greater complexities hiding under this hood than most of us are prepared to spend time learning about. Even to the point of just understanding which areas are worthy of closer study; never mind accumulating enough knowledge to give confidence in determining which to buy. From my own experience and to my cost I can confidently say the multiple levels of complexity in a good audio DSP solution go well beyond the best textbooks, university courses and capabilities of many doctors and professors formally qualified and highly respected in this field.
Producing a system that works in all environments and always sounds good is not easy. Ask Bill Gates; Microsoft assembled a top notch team of qualified academics with experienced engineering support set them to work and then included their output in Windows. It was so unsatisfactory that even the memory of it is now lost to time. Had they been able to make it always work well; then the be all and end all of audio DSP would long since have been included with every copy of the world’s most well-known operating system. Even with all their power of branding and might of marketing the finest efforts of the brightest and best that money could buy still came to nought. Reputation and trust were yesterday’s way, now all we need to do is search the web where end user's views can easily be found.
There are not quite so many vendors of audio DSP products as makers of cars. But their product technologies fall broadly into two categories. i.e. hardware and software. The packaging and presentation of these being inevitably subject as much to fashion and style as to good sense and a properly informed and motivated perspective. The most fool-proof way to select an audio DSP product for an active system is by relying on independent reports to narrow the field and then taking it for a good long test drive; i.e. try before you buy.
We are already in the post commoditisation part of the computer and electronics industries existence. Because of this industrial maturity the tensions created by ever increasing component level integration along with attendant performance improvements when pitted against the market’s expectation for continuing overall system cost reduction creates ever shorter technology lifecycles. Think of IEEE 1394 AKA Firewire or your mobile phone. Today built in obsolescence is a given for almost any closed architectural assemblage of off the shelf modules. Consumers are already wise and daily getting wiser to this reality. They are looking for those companies hoping to make market traction with new offerings to be first and foremost serving the purchaser's best interests with those of shareholders taking second place.
One key element to consider in determining how to evaluate the suitability of an audio DSP product is ‘lock-in’. The claims of any vendor suggesting there are special benefits in their proprietary or ‘end to end’ solution should always be weighed against the inherent disadvantages. These are inevitable and each affects several domains of consideration. For example, integration; which may reduce physical footprint always restricts modular upgrading or component replacement and removes the prospect of open future-proofing at the hardware and software level. Leaving the purchaser wholly dependent on what may later be sub optimal offerings from the vendor’s then outdated system architecture.
In my view, part the audio industry’s centre of gravity is shifting from the loudspeaker having been seen in isolation as an object of separate function to it becoming essentially a computer peripheral just like any other. These are in general of fixed operability highly integrated, low cost and disposable. Some are high value items having interfaces compliant with international standards and openly interoperable. The latter preserves their value because this enables the whole system to improve over time it having not been packed with and linked to closed off versions of the day before yesterday’s out of date technology. In short; the degree of integration needs to be carefully thought through and open system level interoperability should never be sacrificed on the altar of self-interest and profit because it rarely works for long. Ask IBM.
If anyone's interested; apropos the above and with DIY as a focus I’ll say more about hardware concerns, software considerations, optimal functional partitioning or even share any relevant insights from my 40+ years of experience in senior scientific and engineering positions across all areas of computing systems design and implementation. Naturally, of course, convolved with a lifetime of passion for music and an enduring interest in all things audio. Just ask, best in class open interoperable active DSP systems are what hovers’ my craft.
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