Exactly as I said. They vary from quite bad "muffled" sounding to quite good sounding and then after an hour back to muffled again. I called it "ping ponging" then. Since this was a known phenomenon the manufacturer mentioned this as a feature, probably also to prevent recalls. After the break-in they were more than good. It didn't take so long when the device was not used for a while (thankfully as I wouldn't have used them otherwise).
I still stock a lot of BG, I can repeat tests but having only FDA stuff I think I won't bother.
This. Also were the N and NX HiQ the types which exhibited the phenomenon the most (and were best sounding too). OSCON by Sanyo was a bit of the same but the standard series were mostly unusable in analog stages. A very long time ago Philips made the blue sleeve electrolytic caps. If these were in a device one would have better performance (measurable) by replacing them for the then very good ITT Marcon caps. I recently overhauled an old class A amplifier only to see the Marcon were still OK except for the ones that had become hot over decades. The blue sleeve caps by Philips also failed way earlier. Even in school a teacher said he suspected the electrolyte of the blue sleeve Philips caps to be "ranja" (= syrup).
I still stock a lot of BG, I can repeat tests but having only FDA stuff I think I won't bother.
This. Also were the N and NX HiQ the types which exhibited the phenomenon the most (and were best sounding too). OSCON by Sanyo was a bit of the same but the standard series were mostly unusable in analog stages. A very long time ago Philips made the blue sleeve electrolytic caps. If these were in a device one would have better performance (measurable) by replacing them for the then very good ITT Marcon caps. I recently overhauled an old class A amplifier only to see the Marcon were still OK except for the ones that had become hot over decades. The blue sleeve caps by Philips also failed way earlier. Even in school a teacher said he suspected the electrolyte of the blue sleeve Philips caps to be "ranja" (= syrup).
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Maybe reading the stuff by Jelmax would help. It was widely known then by anyone buying/using these. I think it was even 30 hours break in time.
Jelmax had them made by Rubycon. Then an announcement that production would stop. It had to do with the small batches that Jelmax ordered as demand for computer grade caps was way higher. Jelmax announced this and the ones that liked the caps could order a last time. Meanwhile we know that special paper was used with graphite and palladium particles so they were not exactly ROHS but which parts were then? I suspect (assumption alarm) that the BG being non ROHS was a factor since ROHS was then introduced.
Audio companies that like big $ have tried to have BG reproduced but failed because of that paper. And YES, anyone reading the "data sheets" was skeptical. Contrary to what Wikipedia and other websites tell (BG have a large crowd against them by people that mostly haven't even tried a single one) I never experienced any defective Black Gate capacitor nor the "deterioration" but then I don't run caps over their ratings.
ASE-Audiotuning
Jelmax had them made by Rubycon. Then an announcement that production would stop. It had to do with the small batches that Jelmax ordered as demand for computer grade caps was way higher. Jelmax announced this and the ones that liked the caps could order a last time. Meanwhile we know that special paper was used with graphite and palladium particles so they were not exactly ROHS but which parts were then? I suspect (assumption alarm) that the BG being non ROHS was a factor since ROHS was then introduced.
Audio companies that like big $ have tried to have BG reproduced but failed because of that paper. And YES, anyone reading the "data sheets" was skeptical. Contrary to what Wikipedia and other websites tell (BG have a large crowd against them by people that mostly haven't even tried a single one) I never experienced any defective Black Gate capacitor nor the "deterioration" but then I don't run caps over their ratings.
ASE-Audiotuning
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It wasn't. The caps were the cause as these were the parts replaced. Said it before and will say it again: practically anyone that tried these knows the phenomenon. There is NO defect and they behave excellent after the break in period. I used to have them charged together before use to reduce the break in time. Since I used many of them I know them well. If they would be produced again by the same guys I would be one of the first to try them again.
One can make it complex and one can try to find out but sometimes (when it can be repeated but is not understood) one can accept and enjoy the benefits. Some do this with a religion and get even less answers but still are very convinced.
Some UK audio brands used a cheap BG series in their products. Rotel for instance. This was the F series, in my experience practically the same as the STD (standard) series. Since I will sell my stock you can try them out
I only use them in analog and analog stages of very high quality stuff but have too many and I discovered I have probably only 1 life.
One can make it complex and one can try to find out but sometimes (when it can be repeated but is not understood) one can accept and enjoy the benefits. Some do this with a religion and get even less answers but still are very convinced.
Some UK audio brands used a cheap BG series in their products. Rotel for instance. This was the F series, in my experience practically the same as the STD (standard) series. Since I will sell my stock you can try them out
I only use them in analog and analog stages of very high quality stuff but have too many and I discovered I have probably only 1 life.
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Beats and beated everyone. Discussed by many, fought by many, listened to by the acceptors.
Anecdote which can be used as counterstrike: I made many identical DACs but I made only one with BG NX HiQ and N series almost exclusively (these caps are expensive). That one was for a mates birthday and he is a connaisseur. Exactly that DAC is the very best sounding. It was still the lowest cost DAC in total value but all others are gone.
Anecdote which can be used as counterstrike: I made many identical DACs but I made only one with BG NX HiQ and N series almost exclusively (these caps are expensive). That one was for a mates birthday and he is a connaisseur. Exactly that DAC is the very best sounding. It was still the lowest cost DAC in total value but all others are gone.
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Oh, NOW I get it.
Of course you are right.
Easy to solve: build 2 exact same preamps but on one orient the ground buswire North-South and on the other East-West.
Wire a relay to switch one or the other into the signal Path, of course i will need a precise timer to do so at the exact time, I suggest this one:
The capacitors don't need to know anything. The designer of the capacitors chooses materials and construction techniques that give optimal performance under the conditions the devices are designed for, during the designed service life.
The dialectric and electrical properties of the materials used to make capacitors vary in response to extent of voltage stress, time under voltage stress, whether the voltage stress is AC or DC and/or in what proportion, material ageing due to molecular creep, temperature coefficients, molecular migration, mechanical stress, etc.
It is not an accident that when and if the capacitors are being used within the optimal design parameters they will perform at their best. I am not sure why anyone would think that extraordinary. Otherwise just use cheap ceramic capacitors in every application and be done with it.
Capacitor Misunderstandings.
Cyril Bateman investigates common capacitor fallacies.
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@JMFahey: I don't need to be right. It is a known item. So, if you would have an open mind, you could have tried out these parts and noticed the same.
It is funny that people deny stuff they haven't experienced based on that they apparently don't believe in it. As if this is religion.
True. I just opened this can of worms to mention some passive parts do need a break in time.
It is funny that people deny stuff they haven't experienced based on that they apparently don't believe in it. As if this is religion.
True. I just opened this can of worms to mention some passive parts do need a break in time.
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Lots of people seem to deny expectation bias
Capacitors are easy to test on the bench and film caps are well characterized. Other than a tiny amount of dielectric absorption there's no discernable "burn-in" for a properly made film cap with quality dlelectric like PS/PP/PPS.
In the old days of telephone multiplexing hundreds of phone signals were low-pass brick-wall filtered using high-Q multipole Chebyshev analog filters using PS capacitors before being combined, if there were any burn-in effect this would have been unworkable technology - film caps are basically stable over time with or without signal.
Also high-precision analog integration in analog computers relied on the performance of PS film caps - same thing, this wouldn't have been workable if they weren't rock-solid stable.
The human auditory system on the other hand is flakier and easily fooled, checkout McGurk effect to see just how deceitful the ear is.
The expectation bias would have caused to expect the BG caps would do nothing strange like one is used to from other caps but yet they did. Many experienced this. Mass indoctrination? (all stuff from at least 15 years ago and still causing controversy today )
I think it is extremely silly denying stuff that other people experience. I would then research if it is an isolated case or that there are more that describe the same phenomenon and then think I am probably at the wrong end of things and try out for myself That is what I did anyway. Switched camps without any remorse. But it makes no sense repeating matters. All has been said and done and BG are no longer on the market. So keep denying if it makes life better.
Probably a cultural thingie to win discussions with but you also link my remark on people denying the changes BG ELECTROLYTIC caps cause as they don't believe in it (but never tried it) to film caps.
I don't believe much in hamburgers being tasty and good food but when one points me to a new place where they taste extremely well who am I to deny that? "I have learned during my study that hamburgers are fast food and that it is cheap garbage food. I don't believe they are a replacement for good food nor that they can be tasty so I refuse to try the new place out as it can't be true".
You are right that the ear is deceitful, that is why I tested with a switch. Confirmed what I experienced.
)I think it is extremely silly denying stuff that other people experience. I would then research if it is an isolated case or that there are more that describe the same phenomenon and then think I am probably at the wrong end of things and try out for myself
That is what I did anyway. Switched camps without any remorse. But it makes no sense repeating matters. All has been said and done and BG are no longer on the market. So keep denying if it makes life better.Probably a cultural thingie to win discussions with but you also link my remark on people denying the changes BG ELECTROLYTIC caps cause as they don't believe in it (but never tried it) to film caps.
I don't believe much in hamburgers being tasty and good food but when one points me to a new place where they taste extremely well who am I to deny that? "I have learned during my study that hamburgers are fast food and that it is cheap garbage food. I don't believe they are a replacement for good food nor that they can be tasty so I refuse to try the new place out as it can't be true".
You are right that the ear is deceitful, that is why I tested with a switch. Confirmed what I experienced.
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