It's in the minds of the manufacturer of components for audio as well*. Many are specified after a period of burn in and many are burned in as part of manufacturing process. It's true that subtle effects are often masked by gross deficiencies. The expectation effect also makes it true that a person won't hear a subtle effect if they don't believe it can happen.
*Not just components for audio, but any precision application where signal fidelity of the highest order is required. Generally consumer and commercial grade equipment is not pushing the boundaries of theoretical performance limits and is built without regard for component drift except where it is grossly obvious.
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There's most certainly an element of getting used to the way something sounds. Ironically there is often also an element of time involved in identifying a subtle deficiency in the sound of something, so it cuts both ways.
Once a characteristic colouration is heard and identified by the listener, it is difficult for that listener to 'un-hear' it. Conversely the fact another listener doesn't hear that characteristic in the sound does not mean it doesn't exist, a point that seems to be lost on some people.
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I would like to know where you get that information. I have never seen it on a datasheet for polypropylene capacitors.
Graphs - WIMA – Competence in Capacitors
~+2% at -55degC to ~-2% at 80degC.
If I remember correctly my MKP10s a 5% tolerance so in reality not that bad. I certainly would do a timing circuit with it but it’s no slouch.
~+2% at -55degC to ~-2% at 80degC.
If I remember correctly my MKP10s a 5% tolerance so in reality not that bad. I certainly would do a timing circuit with it but it’s no slouch.
PP temperature coefficient is not too large, it is the same order as PET, possibly twice smaller, but it may be considered as 'high' in some situations. Possibly about an order or more larger than NP0 (+-). It may be ok for audio, but may be not suited for frequncy-stability-critical circuits.
I have some small experience about a temperature stability and tell those numbers since I made several 50.00 Hz oscillators.
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If a cap were to 'burn in', that implies some parameter changed. How come folks always assume
that after the burn in period, it no longer changes AND it stops where you like it? ANSWER, it didn't
change in the first place. You just got used to it.
It's the same with digital in that folks seem to assume only the least significant bit changes. IF bits
were changing, it's just as likely ANY bit changes from MSB down to LSB. BTW that RARELY happens
and it's not subtle.
G²
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Honestly, I really wish that some people stopped worrying and obsessing over such things as "burn in" with capacitors, resistors, wiring, and other assorted components in electronic devices.
Just because some impressive website somewhere, or somebody on the internet "said so" is just pure BS.
Like was mentioned here, the "perception" of such things can dazzle the mind, and make people believe that something's actually been changed.
We've got a lot of weird, goofy, people in the world, with beliefs just as goofy.
With all due respect, those people need to get a grip on reality.
Just because some impressive website somewhere, or somebody on the internet "said so" is just pure BS.
Like was mentioned here, the "perception" of such things can dazzle the mind, and make people believe that something's actually been changed.
We've got a lot of weird, goofy, people in the world, with beliefs just as goofy.
With all due respect, those people need to get a grip on reality.
Many capacitors contain ionic molecular structures and those structures can and do change under the influence of electric fields, and some properties revert in the absence of an electric field. Links to real, measured capacitor behaviour relevant to audio quality have been posted many times in this forum.
The acuity of human hearing is demonstrably around 120dB, or 1 part per million, i.e. 0.0001%. So someone can hear a 1% change in a component's characteristic behaviour - who wudda thort??? I'd be more worried if I couldn't hear differences!
Capacitor sound is just a consequence of garden variety physics. If capacitors were perfect, why the need to make so many types for different applications? That doesn't mean everyone has to notice a difference, and I don't care if they do or don't. They are both sparkling wines, but some people drink Piper-Heidsieck, while others make do with Passion Pop. If you're happy with Passion Pop, frankly there's no need to denigrate someone else because they prefer Piper-Heidsieck.
The acuity of human hearing is demonstrably around 120dB, or 1 part per million, i.e. 0.0001%. So someone can hear a 1% change in a component's characteristic behaviour - who wudda thort??? I'd be more worried if I couldn't hear differences!
Capacitor sound is just a consequence of garden variety physics. If capacitors were perfect, why the need to make so many types for different applications? That doesn't mean everyone has to notice a difference, and I don't care if they do or don't. They are both sparkling wines, but some people drink Piper-Heidsieck, while others make do with Passion Pop. If you're happy with Passion Pop, frankly there's no need to denigrate someone else because they prefer Piper-Heidsieck.
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Not all 1% are noticeable, it depends on the perception sensitivity and unfortunately imagination filters.. the issue is quite often that evidence is given but without removing all other contributing factors, aka scientific evidence is given without scientific process that is published and repeatable.
There are only a few devices that need a burn in, one is tubes (the system needs to settle to the heat, and some chemical stuff is happening) and other are moving parts like speakers drivers and turntable needles. Mostly that burn in is a short term (seconds, minutes or a few hours) burn in, in a few exceptions it takes time (like Mark Audio drivers that need the special custom spider to loosen up). And it's always measurable.
But things like transistors, diodes, caps, resistors or cables never need a burn in as they are not moving parts or have to go trough serious heat like tubes. Those who say different will have to show objective scientific prove for their view on this. I never saw any, altough i asked a lot to people who claim burning in those parts is needed. They only can give me subjective impressions which are not valid for me.
But things like transistors, diodes, caps, resistors or cables never need a burn in as they are not moving parts or have to go trough serious heat like tubes. Those who say different will have to show objective scientific prove for their view on this. I never saw any, altough i asked a lot to people who claim burning in those parts is needed. They only can give me subjective impressions which are not valid for me.
Quite impressed on your comments!
You obviously have the sense and ability to determine what matters, and what doesn't.
And I'm sure you avoid purchasing, or even spending time worrying about those miracle "high-end" audiophile fuses that claim to vastly improve listening sessions.
In all my educated and professional decades of being a service technician, I have learned an emmense amount of solid, factual, information.
Having tons of test equipment available to me also gave me the edge to determine what matters and what doesn't.
Because that environment exceeds the bounds of human hearing, unless of course you're an alien from another planet.
But however, it seems those long, pointy "alien ears" have found their way onto the internet, and insist that we mortals listen to them.
You obviously have the sense and ability to determine what matters, and what doesn't.
And I'm sure you avoid purchasing, or even spending time worrying about those miracle "high-end" audiophile fuses that claim to vastly improve listening sessions.
In all my educated and professional decades of being a service technician, I have learned an emmense amount of solid, factual, information.
Having tons of test equipment available to me also gave me the edge to determine what matters and what doesn't.
Because that environment exceeds the bounds of human hearing, unless of course you're an alien from another planet.
But however, it seems those long, pointy "alien ears" have found their way onto the internet, and insist that we mortals listen to them.
Anyone that has used Black Gate capacitors can testify. These vary quite a lot the first few days. Even the most cynical (I am one) can not deny that. Of course this was demonstrated to the audio guys and then they suddenly also noticed it. It is not subtle! I noticed the same but in way lesser degree and way shorter time with large value filter caps that had been in stock for a few years before use. This even with the habit to have some voltage on them before use and discharging them.
I never managed to measure anything of significance that would explain it but I just accepted the fact as I can't change it anyway. Persevering in denying would be worse
I never managed to measure anything of significance that would explain it but I just accepted the fact as I can't change it anyway. Persevering in denying would be worse
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Anyone that has used Black Gate capacitors can testify. These vary quite a lot the first few days. Even the most cynical (I am one) can not deny that. Of course this was demonstrated to the audio guys and then they suddenly also noticed it. It is not subtle! I noticed the same but in way lesser degree and way shorter time with large value filter caps that had been in stock for a few years before use. This even with the habit to have some voltage on them before use and discharging them.
I never managed to measure anything of significance that would explain it but I just accepted the fact as I can't change it anyway. Persevering in denying would be worse
Something I Googled:
"Black Gate is the name of a brand of audio grade electrolytic capacitor made in Japan by Rubycon Corporation. ... The manufacturer attributes the capacitor's sonic quality to the use of fine graphite particles used in the separator between its anode and cathode."
Seems to me, graphite, being a conductive element, isn't something I'd want between plates in a capacitor.
But to each his own.
The point being that you have never tried them. Please note that I am an educated tech and thus I was reluctant regarding break in phenomena. I have a sensitive antenna for audio BS. This was no BS, it could be experienced by everyone that used 2 of these as coupling caps. Too bad they are not produced for a long time anymore.
I think I never experienced it with film caps but since I accepted that the phenomena do occur I maybe am less strict in the teachings and forgot I make it simple by stating "new gear needs some hours". Ever since I built class A (and A/B switchable to A) amplifiers I also noticed they needed to become warm for better subjective performance. So be it.
I think I never experienced it with film caps but since I accepted that the phenomena do occur I maybe am less strict in the teachings and forgot
I make it simple by stating "new gear needs some hours". Ever since I built class A (and A/B switchable to A) amplifiers I also noticed they needed to become warm for better subjective performance. So be it.
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I'm entirely on the objective side of things, utterly. No truck with cable plugs or parts, but. Blackgate caps, particularly the hi-q nx were unlike any other cap I've used. The only other part that falls into that category is Oscons, genuinely capable of different results in the right application