Question 😀o we all think that different brands , type of devices such as caps , resistors , mfets , jfets ect , if all produced within spec offer the exact same end sonic signature in a given amp configuration ? Or can they be within spec thus be used in a given amp build and measure within spec but have a different flavor?
Jenceto
I think I misspelled. I just wanted to say „oh I see, Alain actually did say so“.
I had no intention to be or seem offensive towards you, or harbeth, or papa.
Jenceto
I think I misspelled. I just wanted to say „oh I see, Alain actually did say so“.
I had no intention to be or seem offensive towards you, or harbeth, or papa.
I didn’t get offended, you didn’t say anything offensive at all anyway. I was just writing this for some people who are accusing me being a troll or similar. You’re totally fine🙂
I always see much better ways of investing time and energy than wasting it ......
so, when speaking of amps and speakers - better to just build them , and to reserve social mingling for fun .......... and - logically - bragging about amps and speakers one did built
anyone remembers Bob Carver's challenge ?
so, when speaking of amps and speakers - better to just build them , and to reserve social mingling for fun .......... and - logically - bragging about amps and speakers one did built
anyone remembers Bob Carver's challenge ?
yes, and I just searched it up. I do not remember if he succeeded, I will have to re read the Stereophile article again. Basically, he said he could make his $700.00 amp sound like any other.
They had to be similar power level, or he would be allowed to beef up his power supply to match other amp. If they didnt agree it sounded the same, he was given time to adjust for it.
Didn't he make some huge planer speakers as well?
Russellc
They had to be similar power level, or he would be allowed to beef up his power supply to match other amp. If they didnt agree it sounded the same, he was given time to adjust for it.
Didn't he make some huge planer speakers as well?
Russellc
The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com
it is interesting to read between and not so between lines - how - at least author of article - is having idea how process of making "HiEnd" amplifier is looking, and how it must differentiate from process of making 700 bucks amp
I'm not saying that I know for sure any of these two processes...... but what I'm sure is that there can't be so much difference , as they were imagining .......
to cut possibly long rant - guyz evidently knows diddly-squat about decent and responsible construction of an amp ..... or anything else, evidently
if same Artisan is in case - difference of making fishing-fly for near-the-river market and for selling the same at Sotheby is - more shiny material and printed pamflet for second one ....... and - both would catch the fish the same
it is interesting to read between and not so between lines - how - at least author of article - is having idea how process of making "HiEnd" amplifier is looking, and how it must differentiate from process of making 700 bucks amp
I'm not saying that I know for sure any of these two processes...... but what I'm sure is that there can't be so much difference , as they were imagining .......
to cut possibly long rant - guyz evidently knows diddly-squat about decent and responsible construction of an amp ..... or anything else, evidently
if same Artisan is in case - difference of making fishing-fly for near-the-river market and for selling the same at Sotheby is - more shiny material and printed pamflet for second one ....... and - both would catch the fish the same
All Amps sound the same
Long answer: No Again.
And here you can read Why I think that way.:
It depends on the person who is listening to that system at that time.
It depends on the music that person is playing on that system that time.
It depends on the mood this person feels while playing that music on this system that time.
Question: Shall I go on?
Myself also building Amps, and forgive to be moderate or proud, but I think I build good AMPS. With the help of DiyAUDIO and the lecture one can find here.
But there are Times and Days, I don't even want to listen to these Amps..
So finally it's PERSONAL.
We can not apply our feelings to or for someone else, because each and everyone is unique.
I'm sure that if we take ten amps out of a construction line, same Model, same Brand, and test them blind, that from 10 people half will tell that these amps do not sound the same.
And therefore Amps do not sound all the same.
and this are just my five (5) cents on that matter.
Regards
Chris
short answer: No
Long answer: No Again.
And here you can read Why I think that way.:
It depends on the person who is listening to that system at that time.
It depends on the music that person is playing on that system that time.
It depends on the mood this person feels while playing that music on this system that time.
Question: Shall I go on?
Myself also building Amps, and forgive to be moderate or proud, but I think I build good AMPS. With the help of DiyAUDIO and the lecture one can find here.
But there are Times and Days, I don't even want to listen to these Amps..
So finally it's PERSONAL.
We can not apply our feelings to or for someone else, because each and everyone is unique.
I'm sure that if we take ten amps out of a construction line, same Model, same Brand, and test them blind, that from 10 people half will tell that these amps do not sound the same.
And therefore Amps do not sound all the same.
and this are just my five (5) cents on that matter.
Regards
Chris
Components do not have a sonic signature as such. An amplifier is a complex combination of components, and it is how the parts are combined that determine the sonics. Take a nice bipolar output transistor. You can build very good sounding amps with it, but you can also build awful sounding amps with the same transistor. The 'art' if you will of a good design is an amp that is very linear and transparent despite the errors of the individual parts.
Take a capacitor. Ideally, it is completely linear with the current through it defined by the voltage across it times 2.pi.f.C. But it is not perfect and the voltage-current relationship has errors.
Does that impart a 'sonic signature'? That depends on where the cap is in the amp circuit, and how its imperfections are affecting the amp output signal. If the cap has an affect, it results in an output signal that has errors, it may have distortions, or the frequency response may not be flat. What is the sonic signature of that? Again, it depends.
Take a resistor, all resistors generate noise. Again, it depends a lot on the position of the resistor in the amp circuit whether that noise, or part of it, makes it to the output. So to get less output noise, you can try to use lower resistor values which have lower noise, but you also can design the circuit in such a way that the noise is attenuated on its way to the output.
This is also the reason why amplifier designers are very skeptical to the notion that changing one cap for another would significantly change the sonics, except maybe in incompetently designed amplifiers.
As I said, the 'art' if you will of a good design is an amp that is very linear and transparent despite the errors of the individual parts.
Jan
I won't be much of a discussion if we all went to sleep ;-)
But yes, thinking can be tiring.
Jan
But yes, thinking can be tiring.
Jan
I enjoy Amir's site, ASR. It's educational.
I know some of the speakers he measured and reviewed and I find it's very interesting that my experience and preference does not always sync to his conclusion. For example, he keeps praising small JBL monitors but they actually sound just Okay to me. Other speakers he did not like, Amphion and Dynaudio sound more attractive and accurate for me once my ears accustomed to it and/or EQ applied. I actually bought a DAC which was top rated in his chart, but it just sounds Okay again.
So far, my conclusion is his opinion and measurement is trustful, but it is only helpful to avoid something utterly horrible. All the borderline products can sound better than his top rated products depends on the context or preference.
I know some of the speakers he measured and reviewed and I find it's very interesting that my experience and preference does not always sync to his conclusion. For example, he keeps praising small JBL monitors but they actually sound just Okay to me. Other speakers he did not like, Amphion and Dynaudio sound more attractive and accurate for me once my ears accustomed to it and/or EQ applied. I actually bought a DAC which was top rated in his chart, but it just sounds Okay again.
So far, my conclusion is his opinion and measurement is trustful, but it is only helpful to avoid something utterly horrible. All the borderline products can sound better than his top rated products depends on the context or preference.
Of course. I think pretty much everyone here knows that there is more to how you perceive the sound quality of a component or chain then measurements only.
Your experiences should not come as any surprise here!
Jan
Your experiences should not come as any surprise here!
Jan
When applied to a speaker voltages sound different depending on their size and shape. Even wifey in the kitchen can discern😀
The Amir ACA-review was very strange. I would say he had a faulty ACA as I was surprised how loud the ACA was when I tested my ACAs on Snell C speakers.
Apart from that it is a interesting discussion if an "electrical-mechanical transducer" = "speaker" can reproduce the differences between amps......or how good it can do it.
Is it possible to "record" the absolute sound from a speaker?
I was thinking about if we could measure the absolute movements the of speaker cones by placing a piece of light reflecting material on the cones and then measure the absolute movement of the speakers cones using a laser to detect the movements?
If you can't detect any difference in movements between two amps then the sound must be the same?
The movement should be calibrated using e.g. a 1000 Hz sine between amps.
I guess even with same amp there will be difference between several playbacks with same amp as a slight change in room temperature or/and amp temperature will result in slight change of movement so "figures" should be corrected for the "delta-variance".
Has something like this been done?
Apart from that it is a interesting discussion if an "electrical-mechanical transducer" = "speaker" can reproduce the differences between amps......or how good it can do it.
Is it possible to "record" the absolute sound from a speaker?
I was thinking about if we could measure the absolute movements the of speaker cones by placing a piece of light reflecting material on the cones and then measure the absolute movement of the speakers cones using a laser to detect the movements?
If you can't detect any difference in movements between two amps then the sound must be the same?
The movement should be calibrated using e.g. a 1000 Hz sine between amps.
I guess even with same amp there will be difference between several playbacks with same amp as a slight change in room temperature or/and amp temperature will result in slight change of movement so "figures" should be corrected for the "delta-variance".
Has something like this been done?
Measuring a speakers movement to tell if a set of speakers sound the same won‘t work.
Many criteria are happening after the movement, at the baffle (the speaker’s frontplate) for example, and many other aspects come to play.
So I doubt you could measure an amplifier‘s output-accuracy just by looking at the cone‘s movement, although this seems to be quite objective. Maybe other methods, closer to the amp, could fare better…
Many criteria are happening after the movement, at the baffle (the speaker’s frontplate) for example, and many other aspects come to play.
So I doubt you could measure an amplifier‘s output-accuracy just by looking at the cone‘s movement, although this seems to be quite objective. Maybe other methods, closer to the amp, could fare better…
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Actually my question was about the sonic signature of a given amplifier built with equal spec but different brand parts . So if I'm understanding you reply , the driving factor in choosing parts is price point or durability if they don't by brand have any effect on the sound of a finished amp . Am I understanding this correctly ?
He tends to say anything short of a couple hundred watts isn't loud enough. It is back to the 'our way is the only way to listen to music' attitude; because it would be easy to say something along the lines of: 'it doesn't play loud enough for my taste but it may be plenty for some people'. Instead, to them there is no reason for an amp to exist that can't cause hearing damage.
On one occasion, we got together to make an immediate comparison between various amplifiers (via a switch with relays).
Between a Nad 3020 (20 w / ch) and a Sansui SA 9500 (85 w / ch), at low volume there were no perceptible differences. When the volume was raised, the one that marked the crossover distortion in a notorious way was the Sansuí. (Nad Soft Clipping was disabled for a fair comparison).
Both were SS class AB.
Then a class A amplifier sounded better than the Nad at low and high volume. (I don't remember at this moment what it was, sorry)
And finally a PP tube amp topped them all, at low and high volume.
NAD 3020 Stereo Integrated Amplifier Manual | HiFi Engine
Vintage HiFi Club Sansui AU 9500 - integrato - Vintage HiFi Club
Between a Nad 3020 (20 w / ch) and a Sansui SA 9500 (85 w / ch), at low volume there were no perceptible differences. When the volume was raised, the one that marked the crossover distortion in a notorious way was the Sansuí. (Nad Soft Clipping was disabled for a fair comparison).
Both were SS class AB.
Then a class A amplifier sounded better than the Nad at low and high volume. (I don't remember at this moment what it was, sorry)
And finally a PP tube amp topped them all, at low and high volume.
NAD 3020 Stereo Integrated Amplifier Manual | HiFi Engine
Vintage HiFi Club Sansui AU 9500 - integrato - Vintage HiFi Club