A 21" bass driver needs only a few mm travel to give enormous spl for bass in a room. Small closed cabinet will be OK with eq and I don't believe that you need many watts either! Assuming your room has something else than cardboard as walls...
i have no experience of IB bass, Scandinavian climate is the limiting factor! But I believe that they are mainly for HT effects, rumbles, not so good for music. I mean difficult to get nice xo and delay.
Here is my distortion measurement at 102dB of a single 10" in closed 30ltr cabinet, in a 35m2 room with open passages to kitchen and corridor. Measured at 1,5m distance, including rattles in the room. My max power for the bass driver is 125W, I guess is that I used 30W. Disortion at 30Hz is 22% - it sounds clean.
i have no experience of IB bass, Scandinavian climate is the limiting factor! But I believe that they are mainly for HT effects, rumbles, not so good for music. I mean difficult to get nice xo and delay.
Here is my distortion measurement at 102dB of a single 10" in closed 30ltr cabinet, in a 35m2 room with open passages to kitchen and corridor. Measured at 1,5m distance, including rattles in the room. My max power for the bass driver is 125W, I guess is that I used 30W. Disortion at 30Hz is 22% - it sounds clean.
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do you mind if i dicuss more about sealed subwoofer here? since for woofer and fullrange is fixed for me. opening a new thread on sub might not focus on my build.
my room 3.8x5m with 2.8m height use brick walls, no one use cardboard here. the only issue is that my neighbour wall and mine are attached together, or we are sharing walls eventhought each of us has own wall. hence there are 2 layers of wall between me and my left, right and back neighbours.
I had never build or owned any subwoofer, my previous experience with my friend ported subwoofer, it seems that it loads the wall and i think it is annoying to neighbours, something that i try to avoid. another reason for leaving HT region is also neighbour reason, I'd rather go to Cinema and enjoy real theater experience
A little bit different story with my OB subwoofer, it seems only interact within inside the room, when I close the door less bass go out.
back to sealed design, what is the Q that you set for Aino? I just ordered infinity kappa 12 for my experiment, trying different box <60ltr with different Q like 0.9 or.0.7 wont use too much plywood. But I'm still intrigued with sealed 21", with Q 0.7 yields 280Ltr, while Q 0.9 yields 150Ltr box volume.
I'm also looking at back to back isobaric enclosure, Winisd simulation shows 2subs yield much lower cone excursion with same box size
my room 3.8x5m with 2.8m height use brick walls, no one use cardboard here. the only issue is that my neighbour wall and mine are attached together, or we are sharing walls eventhought each of us has own wall. hence there are 2 layers of wall between me and my left, right and back neighbours.
I had never build or owned any subwoofer, my previous experience with my friend ported subwoofer, it seems that it loads the wall and i think it is annoying to neighbours, something that i try to avoid. another reason for leaving HT region is also neighbour reason, I'd rather go to Cinema and enjoy real theater experience
A little bit different story with my OB subwoofer, it seems only interact within inside the room, when I close the door less bass go out.
back to sealed design, what is the Q that you set for Aino? I just ordered infinity kappa 12 for my experiment, trying different box <60ltr with different Q like 0.9 or.0.7 wont use too much plywood. But I'm still intrigued with sealed 21", with Q 0.7 yields 280Ltr, while Q 0.9 yields 150Ltr box volume.
I'm also looking at back to back isobaric enclosure, Winisd simulation shows 2subs yield much lower cone excursion with same box size
I have never calculated my Q. The driver is SEAS L26RO4Y, specs here. Driver is on the bottom of enclosure, feet are 8cm high, cab volume is approx. 30 liters.
I didn't find a measurement of my L26 without eq.
I didn't find a measurement of my L26 without eq.
Oh you have RO4Y? why did you choose that 4layer high inductance versioon over lower inductance 2layer version?
Sorry, no they are L26ROY I made a mistake in hurry. the 4-version was not available theen, but it could be even better, with eq anyway?
This doesn't quite merit a new topic so I'll ask my question here since this thread started me looking at Gradient again.
Does anyone know which mid-range driver is used in the Gradient 1.5?
From their technical description and photos it would appear to be either the Seas ER15RLY or the CA15RLY.
Does anyone know which mid-range driver is used in the Gradient 1.5?
From their technical description and photos it would appear to be either the Seas ER15RLY or the CA15RLY.
Thanks! I see from the datasheets that the MCA15RLY mainly differs from the ER15RLY and CA15RLY in having a shorter throw, so obviously these latter two were intended to be woofers.
MCA15 has shorter mathematical Xmax but mechanically it is close to CA15. In practice it works okay down to 100-200 Hz and therefore it is valid as mid also in resistance enclosure / damped TL such as 1.5.
Sad news for dipole lovers and audio enthusiasts, one more legend has passed this year
What's new at LINKWITZ LAB
Siegfried Linkwitz (1935-2018)
A warm hearted libertine, pioneer, innovator and friend passed away. It´s sad..... Frank Brenner
What's new at LINKWITZ LAB
Siegfried Linkwitz (1935-2018)
A warm hearted libertine, pioneer, innovator and friend passed away. It´s sad..... Frank Brenner
I ran some measurements after a while.
All crossovers have been acoustic LR2 for ages but I have done small eq adjustments many times,without saving measurements. I also put felt pads on the tweeter to make it's radiation wider. Delay settings were done long time ago outdoors and I didn't touch them.
Now I had chance to put her on the table with a turntable. Backside response is quite ragged, that is because each driver's delay is optimized to frontside. The 12" cone is closer to the listener than upper mid and tweeter. Previous outdoor measurements done at longer distance are smoother and more reliable. Indoor measurements around 200hz from two different kind of radiators 60cm apart is mission impossible.
A funny thing happened again when 70¤ off-axis was reached. 16ms late reflection was louder than direct signal and REW set timing=0 there. Low freq response was so different that I noticed that immediately, and this was not first time... I had to move t=0 to get right response, see attached picture.
Now the constricted tweeter has much less directivity 5-8kHz but room response stays even. LR2 xo helps to keep vertical directivity smooth - 1,5-6kHz gets recessed, but fortunately it is difficult to hear and again room response is nice.
More graphics here AINOgradient - Google Photos
All crossovers have been acoustic LR2 for ages but I have done small eq adjustments many times,without saving measurements. I also put felt pads on the tweeter to make it's radiation wider. Delay settings were done long time ago outdoors and I didn't touch them.
Now I had chance to put her on the table with a turntable. Backside response is quite ragged, that is because each driver's delay is optimized to frontside. The 12" cone is closer to the listener than upper mid and tweeter. Previous outdoor measurements done at longer distance are smoother and more reliable. Indoor measurements around 200hz from two different kind of radiators 60cm apart is mission impossible.
A funny thing happened again when 70¤ off-axis was reached. 16ms late reflection was louder than direct signal and REW set timing=0 there. Low freq response was so different that I noticed that immediately, and this was not first time... I had to move t=0 to get right response, see attached picture.
Now the constricted tweeter has much less directivity 5-8kHz but room response stays even. LR2 xo helps to keep vertical directivity smooth - 1,5-6kHz gets recessed, but fortunately it is difficult to hear and again room response is nice.
More graphics here AINOgradient - Google Photos
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A friend of mine likes to play bluegrass, he linked Mark O'Connor to me. The legendary multi-instrumentalist and composer etc. has a family band too. This is a nice example of superb musicians playing and singing, recorded in minimalistic 2-mic setup and giving very lifelike sound! Background scene is obviously from my back door!
YouTube
YouTube
I just updated the AINOgradient Neo83 presentation.
Link to Google drive: AINOgradient Neo83.pdf - Google Drive
Link to Google drive: AINOgradient Neo83.pdf - Google Drive
Nice 🙂
So what's your next project? 😀
For me today's task is to drill 100 6mm holes perfectly aligned into 2 frame supports and the outside panels that hold the windows. The backside of 50 of these require a squared end to properly hold 1/4x20 carriage bolts. Panels (x2) will be held on with 50 Hurricane wingnuts. It's a prototype test sub, not for display
Kept ordering melamine glue by the gallon and 4 shipments came gelled eg froze in shipping. It's not freeze thaw stable and despite the fact we're in the 25c range here its <0c in the rest of the country and not available locally. Friend up in the Great White North here in the USA suggested waiting two months lol, not an option. Finally received good 1 gallon each of two different kinds to test CLD, Titebond Melamine glue and WilsonArt Melamine glue. Home Depot carries some 2.7mm plywood that's quite flexible, perfect, 6 - 7 layers thick should suffice. Front baffle is cld bent ply which is exterior to the mtm's. Those drives are mounted to the internal baffle of the box in a box. Need some vinyl and sorbothane for gaskets still. Have an insane amount of money invested and am loving it.
This evening celebrate my sons 27 birthday (miracle). First stop this morning, pancakes for breakfast, his favorite
So what's your next project? 😀
For me today's task is to drill 100 6mm holes perfectly aligned into 2 frame supports and the outside panels that hold the windows. The backside of 50 of these require a squared end to properly hold 1/4x20 carriage bolts. Panels (x2) will be held on with 50 Hurricane wingnuts. It's a prototype test sub, not for display
Kept ordering melamine glue by the gallon and 4 shipments came gelled eg froze in shipping. It's not freeze thaw stable and despite the fact we're in the 25c range here its <0c in the rest of the country and not available locally. Friend up in the Great White North here in the USA suggested waiting two months lol, not an option. Finally received good 1 gallon each of two different kinds to test CLD, Titebond Melamine glue and WilsonArt Melamine glue. Home Depot carries some 2.7mm plywood that's quite flexible, perfect, 6 - 7 layers thick should suffice. Front baffle is cld bent ply which is exterior to the mtm's. Those drives are mounted to the internal baffle of the box in a box. Need some vinyl and sorbothane for gaskets still. Have an insane amount of money invested and am loving it.
This evening celebrate my sons 27 birthday (miracle). First stop this morning, pancakes for breakfast, his favorite
Juhazi knows already from my direct PMs, but I'm chiming in publicly to say how much I've enjoyed his telling of the Aino project story, and the many fascinating things I've learned in this thread. Kudos & many thanks in sharing your efforts!
Of course, I'm now obsessed to replicate his Aino or the Gradient 1.3 & hear the magic for myself. 😉 With the Beyma 12mwnd discontinued, I've been scouring pro speaker directories for days. Hard to find the right balance of lowish mass, good FR, Xmax -- & good looks! Gadut's choice of ACR PA-75124 W-N FABULOUS (404 Not Found | ACR Speaker) looks very good but in North America, it is unobtanium. I'm considering B&C 12NDL76 (B&C Speakers) -- Xmax is only 7mm, but 53g moving mass is nice, and the basket/magnet looks similar to that ACR. Should be relatively easy to affix firmly to whatever bracket scheme I come up with. This driver is also modestly priced around here, which is good. Any serious issues with this driver that I haven't noticed?
PS -- have you improved on the velcro mounting of the Beyma, Juhazi? That seems about the weakest mechanical part of your system. Surely it can be improved upon, perhaps with an audible improvement? How about a custom clamp to wrap around the basket, something shaped from BB ply or metal? SL and his affiliate Don Barringer came up with a metal "puck" (shallow cup?) that clamps around the magnet of the 8" mid to secure it to the back bracket in one iteration of the Orion.
Of course, I'm now obsessed to replicate his Aino or the Gradient 1.3 & hear the magic for myself. 😉 With the Beyma 12mwnd discontinued, I've been scouring pro speaker directories for days. Hard to find the right balance of lowish mass, good FR, Xmax -- & good looks! Gadut's choice of ACR PA-75124 W-N FABULOUS (404 Not Found | ACR Speaker) looks very good but in North America, it is unobtanium. I'm considering B&C 12NDL76 (B&C Speakers) -- Xmax is only 7mm, but 53g moving mass is nice, and the basket/magnet looks similar to that ACR. Should be relatively easy to affix firmly to whatever bracket scheme I come up with. This driver is also modestly priced around here, which is good. Any serious issues with this driver that I haven't noticed?
PS -- have you improved on the velcro mounting of the Beyma, Juhazi? That seems about the weakest mechanical part of your system. Surely it can be improved upon, perhaps with an audible improvement? How about a custom clamp to wrap around the basket, something shaped from BB ply or metal? SL and his affiliate Don Barringer came up with a metal "puck" (shallow cup?) that clamps around the magnet of the 8" mid to secure it to the back bracket in one iteration of the Orion.
^ I don't have any special 12" driver suggestions now, sorry. Xmax should not be a problem, that can be handled with xo frequency and slope settings based on high spl sweeps and looking at distortion. Many woofers with heavy cones and strong motors get in trouble above 600Hz, but we need nice response up to 1000-1200Hz here.
usspeaker.com has 12MW Nd listed still Beyma Neodymium Speakers - Beyma 12MW/Nd speaker - Beyma 12MW/Nd 700 watt 12" woofer for all bass applications. Beyma 12MW/Nd neodymium speaker and other Beyma neodymium lightweight speakers here.
Temporary velcro strip attachement has served me well for 5 years now... I can't see anything strange in measurements, except sometimes distortion peaks when connection gets loose and the frame buzzes against the pole at 12 o'clock. In the beginning I had the upper edge bolted to the pole, but it buzzed all the time. Then I added a plywood plate to get more clearance. The woofer weighs 3.3kg.
usspeaker.com has 12MW Nd listed still Beyma Neodymium Speakers - Beyma 12MW/Nd speaker - Beyma 12MW/Nd 700 watt 12" woofer for all bass applications. Beyma 12MW/Nd neodymium speaker and other Beyma neodymium lightweight speakers here.
Temporary velcro strip attachement has served me well for 5 years now... I can't see anything strange in measurements, except sometimes distortion peaks when connection gets loose and the frame buzzes against the pole at 12 o'clock. In the beginning I had the upper edge bolted to the pole, but it buzzed all the time. Then I added a plywood plate to get more clearance. The woofer weighs 3.3kg.
