My first association was Finnish hattivatti by Tove Jansson
and then my crooked mind made this Finnish crossfeed!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
and then my crooked mind made this Finnish crossfeed!
Attachments
Last edited:
much nicer! 😀
technically it's like yet another crossover between the Revolution line and the Gradient line
the first was Helsinki which took the dipole bas concept from Revolution and the rest was more in the line of Gradient 1.3
in 1.4 they tried the opposite direction and took the tilted back coaxial approach from Revolution and monopole bass concept from the Gradient line
the coaxial is substantially bigger then the midrange in Helsinki and it's at a greater height hence it's tilted back less I suppose
it's interesting that down-firing bass is crossed over at 200 Hz, 200 Hz is already a musical midrange
technically it's like yet another crossover between the Revolution line and the Gradient line
the first was Helsinki which took the dipole bas concept from Revolution and the rest was more in the line of Gradient 1.3
in 1.4 they tried the opposite direction and took the tilted back coaxial approach from Revolution and monopole bass concept from the Gradient line
the coaxial is substantially bigger then the midrange in Helsinki and it's at a greater height hence it's tilted back less I suppose
it's interesting that down-firing bass is crossed over at 200 Hz, 200 Hz is already a musical midrange
We don't know how steep the xo is, my guess is something like LR4 acoustic. I have tried up too 350Hz xo with AINOs and it didn't sound strange. That cardioid midrange is 6,5" and it gets stressed quite easily with low xo. 1.3 was crossed at 250Hz.
The ball head of 1.4 is not fixed, it can be rotated and tilted by the user. The reflex port is under the ball.
The ball head of 1.4 is not fixed, it can be rotated and tilted by the user. The reflex port is under the ball.
I have two preset xo version in my Minidsp 4X10HD. The earlier version has LR4 between mids and the tweeter. The later has LR2 acoustic in all three crossings. I like the all-LR2 better, more musical and natural. LR4 measures a little better though, with less distortion.
I read Troels Gravesen's pages regularly, and he has similar experiences with a two-way LR4 vs. LR2. 18W-8434G00
"V3 crossover: Making the stepped baffle and implementing a true LR2 filter made a world of a difference. Suddenly music started flowing and sense of depth and perspective improved vastly. I never heard the difference between a flat baffle/2nd-3rd order crossover and a stepped baffle/true LR2 filter so clearly. It's night and day. It also made me think I have to do the Ellam XT once more with an easy stepped baffle because people continue building the Ellam XT speaker rather than the much better Ellam FLEX with its more complex front panel layout. There are more to be gained from these Ellam XT. And I would love to do the 9800 tweeter again in such set-up... well, well, back to the Discovery here.
V4 crossover (stepped baffle): This has the well known 4th order characteristics. Even power response and a balanced presentation with a noticeable presence character. Good for monitoring! I know some people like this a lot but to my ears it sounds kind of flat and without the sense of depth and 3-dimensionality of the LR2 filter. Matter of taste in the end."
I read Troels Gravesen's pages regularly, and he has similar experiences with a two-way LR4 vs. LR2. 18W-8434G00
"V3 crossover: Making the stepped baffle and implementing a true LR2 filter made a world of a difference. Suddenly music started flowing and sense of depth and perspective improved vastly. I never heard the difference between a flat baffle/2nd-3rd order crossover and a stepped baffle/true LR2 filter so clearly. It's night and day. It also made me think I have to do the Ellam XT once more with an easy stepped baffle because people continue building the Ellam XT speaker rather than the much better Ellam FLEX with its more complex front panel layout. There are more to be gained from these Ellam XT. And I would love to do the 9800 tweeter again in such set-up... well, well, back to the Discovery here.
V4 crossover (stepped baffle): This has the well known 4th order characteristics. Even power response and a balanced presentation with a noticeable presence character. Good for monitoring! I know some people like this a lot but to my ears it sounds kind of flat and without the sense of depth and 3-dimensionality of the LR2 filter. Matter of taste in the end."
Last edited:
Now Gradient OY have more information of the new 1.4 model, discussed here earlier
Finnish Gradient 1.4 loudspeaker
Xos are at 200 and 2500Hz, order not specified (my guess Lr4). All drivers come from Seas of Norway. Enclosures are cast and tinted polymer, colours available are black and white.
I don't have any connections with Gradient Labs OY.
Finnish Gradient 1.4 loudspeaker
Xos are at 200 and 2500Hz, order not specified (my guess Lr4). All drivers come from Seas of Norway. Enclosures are cast and tinted polymer, colours available are black and white.
I don't have any connections with Gradient Labs OY.
Last edited:
i´ve found that cardioid area is wider with shallower xo, interest to see polars.
We talked about s.harsch messing up polars against lr4´s, what does full lr2?
We talked about s.harsch messing up polars against lr4´s, what does full lr2?
One possible improvement you could do would be to use FIR all pass correction in front of the 4x10HD like Bruno does in the Grimm LS1. If your source is a computer you should be able to do it in software but if not there is always the option to get an OpenDRC.
OllBoll - sorry no plans to go FIR. I have many sources and minidsp gets analog input from my HT-amp (Yamaha RX-V 630RDS), and I adjust volume with Yammy. This is just fine for me and my family - the minidsp and AINOs have power on 24/7 and are operationally invisible for the end-user.
manninen - I haven't made standardized polar or distortion measurements for a long time and I haven't saved the quick ones. In attachments we see phase of vx2 (LR4, lowest LR2) vs. v3 (all LR2).
manninen - I haven't made standardized polar or distortion measurements for a long time and I haven't saved the quick ones. In attachments we see phase of vx2 (LR4, lowest LR2) vs. v3 (all LR2).
Attachments
Last edited:
A wonderful article about Gradient loudspeakers ant their father Jorma Salmi
Gradient 1.4 loudspeaker | Inner Magazines
Gradient 1.4 loudspeaker | Inner Magazines
Sad news today, the founder and designer of Gradient loudspeakers, Mr. Jorma Salmi has passed.
Jorma Salmi 19.9.1948 – 27.5.2018
We are extremely sad to announce that Jorma Salmi, the founder of Gradient passed away suddenly on Sunday morning May 27. Jorma died at his home in Helsinki at the age of 69.
Jorma founded Gradient together with Jouko Alanko and Mikko Paloranta in 1984. Jorma's great passion was in loudspeaker design. He will be remembered from numerous successful loudspeaker models, up to the latest products that Jorma designed with his son Atte Salmi.
We will truly miss him as a beloved father and colleague.
Atte and Mira Salmi
R.I.P.
gratefully, Juha
Jorma Salmi 19.9.1948 – 27.5.2018
We are extremely sad to announce that Jorma Salmi, the founder of Gradient passed away suddenly on Sunday morning May 27. Jorma died at his home in Helsinki at the age of 69.
Jorma founded Gradient together with Jouko Alanko and Mikko Paloranta in 1984. Jorma's great passion was in loudspeaker design. He will be remembered from numerous successful loudspeaker models, up to the latest products that Jorma designed with his son Atte Salmi.
We will truly miss him as a beloved father and colleague.
Atte and Mira Salmi
R.I.P.
gratefully, Juha
Last edited:
I had been looking for ideas on next build, but trying not to spend too much money. I find this Aino concept is worth to try, with drivers that I already had from my open baffle build.
I just ordered minidsp 2x4 HD, basicly it will be only 3ways, with additional passive super tweeter. Harsch XO seems interesting to be applied here.
below the drivers that I will use :
- 21" Subwoofer : sealed 280 liter http://acrspeaker.com/?product=21-pa-113212-sw-fabulous-by-acr
- 12" midwoofer : I hope it can compete with Beyma 12mwnd 🙂
http://acrspeaker.com/?product=12-pa-75124-w-n-fabulous-by-acr
- 8" audionirvana classic + fostex T90A
21" subwoofer will be driven by behringer nu3000dsp, while woofer and fullrange will be managed by minidsp. woofer will be driven by aragon2004, fullrange will be driven by one of my class a amplifier.
While waiting for minidsp arrival, i'm trying to get on ideas to mount woofer and fullrange without baffle.
- 1st idea : copying this Aino mount scheme, which might need alot of try and error on the mounting
-2nd idea : hang them on steel frame with steel cable, seems easier but maybe look ugly 🙂 I am not a good drawer, but attached image might give basic idea.
@Juhazi, can you share a close look of your mounting scheme on woofer? how do you attach it to the panel?
I just ordered minidsp 2x4 HD, basicly it will be only 3ways, with additional passive super tweeter. Harsch XO seems interesting to be applied here.
below the drivers that I will use :
- 21" Subwoofer : sealed 280 liter http://acrspeaker.com/?product=21-pa-113212-sw-fabulous-by-acr
- 12" midwoofer : I hope it can compete with Beyma 12mwnd 🙂
http://acrspeaker.com/?product=12-pa-75124-w-n-fabulous-by-acr
- 8" audionirvana classic + fostex T90A
21" subwoofer will be driven by behringer nu3000dsp, while woofer and fullrange will be managed by minidsp. woofer will be driven by aragon2004, fullrange will be driven by one of my class a amplifier.
While waiting for minidsp arrival, i'm trying to get on ideas to mount woofer and fullrange without baffle.
- 1st idea : copying this Aino mount scheme, which might need alot of try and error on the mounting
-2nd idea : hang them on steel frame with steel cable, seems easier but maybe look ugly 🙂 I am not a good drawer, but attached image might give basic idea.
@Juhazi, can you share a close look of your mounting scheme on woofer? how do you attach it to the panel?
Attachments
Hi Gadut, please still consider using a 4" driver instead of 8"! A 8" will beam too much and the 12" can easily play up to 1000Hz. Kreskowsky and Linkwitz use 4" mids too.
Treble looks like a mess of resonances to mee. Sorry but I just hate these fullranges... Audio Nirvana Super8 Cast Frame Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range
The 12" is resting on a cutout in the pole. Velcro strip on back of magnet is used to hold it still. It is not as solid as I would like but I don't want to use glue. I use slow sweeps to study mechanical resonances - listening and measuring.
Treble looks like a mess of resonances to mee. Sorry but I just hate these fullranges... Audio Nirvana Super8 Cast Frame Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range
The 12" is resting on a cutout in the pole. Velcro strip on back of magnet is used to hold it still. It is not as solid as I would like but I don't want to use glue. I use slow sweeps to study mechanical resonances - listening and measuring.
Attachments
Last edited:
Hi Juhazi, pyramid shape that I will use is an empty baffle, the metal frame is only to hold the driver. so it will be baffless. 8" is not mandatory size for me, for sure I'll play later with another fullrange, hence my panel support for fullrange should be replaceable.
alpair 10p is stored in my drawer, it's a 5.25". another candidate maybe Vifa TC9FD, Scanspeak 10F, or Satori MR13P, plenty of choices.
That is good picture for my reference, many ideas on my head now on how to mount the driver... going to metal shop might give another ideas too from the experienced guy there.
alpair 10p is stored in my drawer, it's a 5.25". another candidate maybe Vifa TC9FD, Scanspeak 10F, or Satori MR13P, plenty of choices.
That is good picture for my reference, many ideas on my head now on how to mount the driver... going to metal shop might give another ideas too from the experienced guy there.
Yes it is a good idea to play with different drivers and crossovers. A single proto is enough and open baffle mono sounds really nice !
The differences between different drivers (when adjusted well) are actually surprisingly small when listening. But expect some 6 months to make it really sing!
The differences between different drivers (when adjusted well) are actually surprisingly small when listening. But expect some 6 months to make it really sing!
looking at 280 liter sealed enclosure might be annoying on my room. I think I'll go with infinity kappa 1200W sealed 65ltr for better enclosure geometry.
However I'm still intrigued by Infinite baffle as I already have 2 pcs 21", buying another 2pcs seems adequate for 9Liter air movement. I'm also in the process on my house renovation which will add a new living room as also my audio room. I have abandoned HT setup which seems not possible in my small house, hence does it good to build iB subwoofer along with sealed 12" subwoofer? are they redundant?
However I'm still intrigued by Infinite baffle as I already have 2 pcs 21", buying another 2pcs seems adequate for 9Liter air movement. I'm also in the process on my house renovation which will add a new living room as also my audio room. I have abandoned HT setup which seems not possible in my small house, hence does it good to build iB subwoofer along with sealed 12" subwoofer? are they redundant?