Now on my main machine... there is a 1v1 of Aiko which isn't up yet... i will get that up after we've taken Tysen tobagganing (i have to clean it up a bit).
dave
dave
Apparently they were causing confusion, as they are only halfspace estimations.
Personally I think the lack of any FR info will cause more confusion, and if it were up to me I just would have added a clear note to say they are only approximations.
Even if they were only estimates, they can still be compared directly to each other and to the halfspace estimations of BIBs, etc. If anything I would have liked more info (some idea of excursion), not less, even crude approximations help when picking through designs.
Either way, I saved all the FR info (estimates) on the models I am interested in, since I heard a rumor it was going to be missing.
Personally I think the lack of any FR info will cause more confusion, and if it were up to me I just would have added a clear note to say they are only approximations.
Even if they were only estimates, they can still be compared directly to each other and to the halfspace estimations of BIBs, etc. If anything I would have liked more info (some idea of excursion), not less, even crude approximations help when picking through designs.
Either way, I saved all the FR info (estimates) on the models I am interested in, since I heard a rumor it was going to be missing.
I think that's a shame, to be honest; it was good to see and be able to compare sensitivity, the amount of ripple and low 3db roll off point etc, even if they were only guidelines.
Can we have them back please, with caveats.
-- Andrew
Can we have them back please, with caveats.
-- Andrew
OK, we'll tale that under advisement.
If we puit them back, we'll have to have a real good "HHow to use/interpret the graphs" sidebar. Can i get some suggestions/help on how you guys use them, what you ignore etc.
dave
How to use/interpret the graphs. That's a great idea, make sure folks see them as guidelines.
Sensitivity, ripple, 3db point, now, I know the room will change this, of course but it better to get an idea?
For example, without sensitivity how will I know what sort of amp to build? Or what sort of bass response to expect?
-- Andrew
Sensitivity, ripple, 3db point, now, I know the room will change this, of course but it better to get an idea?
For example, without sensitivity how will I know what sort of amp to build? Or what sort of bass response to expect?
-- Andrew
Most of the time, speaker plans include a crude drawing and some measurements. Lots of times there is no indication of f3 or anything and you have to read reviews and forums to get specific info.
The frugal-horn.com plans (and specifically 16 pages of the actual frugal horn plans) have sims (even if they are 1/2 space approximations), full cut plans (that actually make sense - first time I've ever followed the plans to the letter), 3d renderings showing internals and relative size, etc, etc, etc. I view all of this as bonus features - not necessary but extremely thoughtful and helpful.
Consider a position like mine. I have a pair of 206e drivers that need boxes. Using the supplied info from the respective sites, I can do an almost accurate head to head frequency response comparison of BIB vs Sachiko (keeping in mind that both designs will probably extend a bit lower in room than indicated, and that the BIB will be shoved in a corner and the other horn will not, etc, etc, etc.) From the graphs (and keeping in mind where in the room the speakers would be placed), I would guess that the BIB would go quite a bit lower and both designs would have forward, in yer face type of presentation with slightly pronounced midbass. OTOH, the G Chang (w/series resistance or 207) looks like a bit flatter, laid back presentation with very strong bass all the way down to box tuning frequency. OTOOH, it looks like if Bruce was in the running, he's not really the best choice. Unless I change my mind again, I choose Sachiko, although tbh I am expecting slightly forward mids and slightly weak lower bass but much better imaging and soundstage due to being well away from walls and the physical horn layout.
That's the way I read it. Am I confused? As always my interpretations could be completely wrong, but the way I see it those graphs help a lot. There's lots that isn't accounted for in the graphs but that's life. There's only so much you can do.
Now what would be really cool is some excursion info, like I mentioned. Then it would be easier and even more meaningful to compare between these designs.
The frugal-horn.com plans (and specifically 16 pages of the actual frugal horn plans) have sims (even if they are 1/2 space approximations), full cut plans (that actually make sense - first time I've ever followed the plans to the letter), 3d renderings showing internals and relative size, etc, etc, etc. I view all of this as bonus features - not necessary but extremely thoughtful and helpful.
Consider a position like mine. I have a pair of 206e drivers that need boxes. Using the supplied info from the respective sites, I can do an almost accurate head to head frequency response comparison of BIB vs Sachiko (keeping in mind that both designs will probably extend a bit lower in room than indicated, and that the BIB will be shoved in a corner and the other horn will not, etc, etc, etc.) From the graphs (and keeping in mind where in the room the speakers would be placed), I would guess that the BIB would go quite a bit lower and both designs would have forward, in yer face type of presentation with slightly pronounced midbass. OTOH, the G Chang (w/series resistance or 207) looks like a bit flatter, laid back presentation with very strong bass all the way down to box tuning frequency. OTOOH, it looks like if Bruce was in the running, he's not really the best choice. Unless I change my mind again, I choose Sachiko, although tbh I am expecting slightly forward mids and slightly weak lower bass but much better imaging and soundstage due to being well away from walls and the physical horn layout.
That's the way I read it. Am I confused? As always my interpretations could be completely wrong, but the way I see it those graphs help a lot. There's lots that isn't accounted for in the graphs but that's life. There's only so much you can do.
Now what would be really cool is some excursion info, like I mentioned. Then it would be easier and even more meaningful to compare between these designs.
I am just a newb but I use the graphs to look for suck-outs. Finishing a build and then discovering hat there is a suck-out (unrelated to the room) is very frustrating. I'd rather have peaks (which can be tamed) than suck-outs.
I think that's where some of the confusion comes from. Those peaks and valleys may not be as severe as pictured. They may not show up at all in reality. Especially in the case of the BIB, the closer the speaker gets to a room corner the less ripple you get. Hopefully if you get it all the way back into the corner there's no ripple at all. This is probably not so much the case for the spawn horns, as they are meant to be placed in halfspace, not corners.
OTOH, I also look for potential peaks and valleys (moreso now than ever) to make sure that if there are peaks that they are not aligned with room modes.
I use them to help give an idea on sensitivity and approximate bottom end. Looking at the graphs you were easily able to see that the Saburo went a lot lower then a Harvey. The Saburo may have some time delay, and it will have a little more ripple at the cost of going a lot lower, so you can see which trade off you want to live with, if you are using that driver.
They also help you choose drivers. You know that by the nature of them that a 4" driver will have a better midrange, and a 6" better bottom end. You can not really measure the midrange, but you can the bottom end and help you pick between an Oliva Chang and a Chili Chang.
They also help you choose drivers. You know that by the nature of them that a 4" driver will have a better midrange, and a 6" better bottom end. You can not really measure the midrange, but you can the bottom end and help you pick between an Oliva Chang and a Chili Chang.
Hi just a guy, I'm not talking about anything on the Frugel-Horn site. I'm also not referring to the "normal" peaks and valleys. Sorry for any confusion. I had a bad experience with a completely unrelated design so that's what I always look for.
How does begging sound javascript:smilie('😉')
The graphs are seriously useful and lend a air of authority to the designs (and the site) they say we know what we're doing, and here's a half space response to prove it.
-- Andrew
The graphs are seriously useful and lend a air of authority to the designs (and the site) they say we know what we're doing, and here's a half space response to prove it.
-- Andrew
It would appear (although I've only checked one) that the actual plans have not changed and still include the response graphs. I don't care if the graphs are on the plans page or not, if they are included in the actual plans.
Oh, and btw, some excursion info would be great. (lol)
Oh, and btw, some excursion info would be great. (lol)
I have yet to start on my build, still in the process of selling my house and moving, anybody wanna move to Florida?
I really like the look of the Curvy Chang. Is it a unique design or a modified version of the Chang? Is a Curvy Aiko possible? I love the simplicity of the Aiko but incorporating the curved cut on the side panels wouldn't complicate it much. This might change how the SupraBaffle works and mounts.
I really like the look of the Curvy Chang. Is it a unique design or a modified version of the Chang? Is a Curvy Aiko possible? I love the simplicity of the Aiko but incorporating the curved cut on the side panels wouldn't complicate it much. This might change how the SupraBaffle works and mounts.
I recently finished my pair of Aiko 1v1. They are built to the plans except I made the SB smaller(purely aesthetic reason).
There is a resonant frequency(?) issue that occurs in the midrange. A note can be a background(or foreground) one and played softly, but if it is the right frequency it causes a honking/blaring that is louder than any other note. Of course, the problem is worse if the note was originally loud.
I have tried adding/changing the dampening in the cavity behind the driver, but it hasn't really done anything for this problem. The drivers have very few hours on them.
Is there anything I should look for, change or add to try to correct this issue? If I can fix this I believe these will be some very good speakers.
Thanks for any help.
There is a resonant frequency(?) issue that occurs in the midrange. A note can be a background(or foreground) one and played softly, but if it is the right frequency it causes a honking/blaring that is louder than any other note. Of course, the problem is worse if the note was originally loud.
I have tried adding/changing the dampening in the cavity behind the driver, but it hasn't really done anything for this problem. The drivers have very few hours on them.
Is there anything I should look for, change or add to try to correct this issue? If I can fix this I believe these will be some very good speakers.
Thanks for any help.
jeffx said:
You really need to get at least a good 100 hours (double that is better) into them before you want to try tweaking... that is one particular kind of thing that does go away. I remember that very clearly when i set up a fresh set of 1197 pipes up next to ones i'd had running for some time. A very annoying honk in male vocals in that case.
dave
I just noticed one of the dimensions in the Aiko plan looks off. What is the measurement front to back over all? The 1v1 plans list it as 12 3/4" and the 1v0 list it as 11 13/16.
I believe all of the panels except for the side panels are 5" wide and fit between the side panels including the back panel, am I correct?
These boxes, when sitting on the floor, position the center of the driver about 26" high. Is it usually desirable to position the driver higher, say at ear height when sitting in a chair? I'm asking because I want to make stands or increase the height of the Aiko to include one or two SDX7 woofers in a side firing set-up.
I believe all of the panels except for the side panels are 5" wide and fit between the side panels including the back panel, am I correct?
These boxes, when sitting on the floor, position the center of the driver about 26" high. Is it usually desirable to position the driver higher, say at ear height when sitting in a chair? I'm asking because I want to make stands or increase the height of the Aiko to include one or two SDX7 woofers in a side firing set-up.
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