Isnt the choice of XO order based on the design and drivers?
This means 1st order can completely suck sometimes.
There are so many parameters/objective involved when building a speaker and XO order is never the first option atleast never been an option in any expert building thread that I have read.
IMO, I think 300dB slopes with coherent phase would be an incredible XO solution (zero driver issues outside of their intended range)...I just need to buy something like the DEQX someday.
This means 1st order can completely suck sometimes.
There are so many parameters/objective involved when building a speaker and XO order is never the first option atleast never been an option in any expert building thread that I have read.
IMO, I think 300dB slopes with coherent phase would be an incredible XO solution (zero driver issues outside of their intended range)...I just need to buy something like the DEQX someday.
I've tried 1st order XO and didn't like the 15 degree tilt. See LSDC for explanation on tilt. I ended up preferring a 2nd order for a small 2-way.
Here's what I linked earlier SUM that may be what you are talking about. Click it in to "stereo" and you can slide the phase around.
http://www.falstad.com/interference/index_ap.html
Dan
http://www.falstad.com/interference/index_ap.html
Dan
What is special then? If its so special why dont more companies do it? Are you referring to your countrys Dunlavy speakers? They used to use 1s order crossovers.
what about timbre though? You cannot achieve timbral accuracy unless there is 0 phase delay between the drive units. That doesnt happen very often.
Poles As Needed!
For the purposes of crossover filter design, the issue of filter poles is subservient to the drivers selected and the enclosure each occupies.
The role of such filters is to tailor the signal fed to each driver so that:
1) midrange and tweeters are protected from being over driven by signals from a lower frequency band. As displacement is increasing inversely with the square of frequency, high pass filters with slopes of 6 db/oct do not afford the required protection. Also, when an electronic crossover is used, a D.C. blocking capacitor is typically introduced into the driver circuit. Its presence adds an additional filter pole as well. So what!
2) so that higher frequencies are directed to the driver best suited to reproduce them. This is required so that driver output collectively sums to an equivalent (approximate) of the input signal. There will always be filter artifacts introduced, most of them are inaudible.
3) signal is tailored by additional filtering to address driver response irregularities. A Zobel is a good example of this.
Discussions of filter poles outside these considerations, while academically interesting, is of marginal utility.
Regards,
WHG
For the purposes of crossover filter design, the issue of filter poles is subservient to the drivers selected and the enclosure each occupies.
The role of such filters is to tailor the signal fed to each driver so that:
1) midrange and tweeters are protected from being over driven by signals from a lower frequency band. As displacement is increasing inversely with the square of frequency, high pass filters with slopes of 6 db/oct do not afford the required protection. Also, when an electronic crossover is used, a D.C. blocking capacitor is typically introduced into the driver circuit. Its presence adds an additional filter pole as well. So what!
2) so that higher frequencies are directed to the driver best suited to reproduce them. This is required so that driver output collectively sums to an equivalent (approximate) of the input signal. There will always be filter artifacts introduced, most of them are inaudible.
3) signal is tailored by additional filtering to address driver response irregularities. A Zobel is a good example of this.
Discussions of filter poles outside these considerations, while academically interesting, is of marginal utility.
Regards,
WHG
It is not is the subject. We speak about crossover and slope. Note in my last post I said :"Never forget at the end you need a perfect summation between the drivers." That means the driver are time align (phase 0 at the point of crossover). My point of view is not subjective but very objective.
read also this: Phase, Time and Distortion in Loudspeakers
Not Your Post!
My post responds to that of Smith, not yours.
Nevertheless, this response comes immediately to mind:
"perfect summation" is not obtainable amongst an assemblage of different, physically displaced, drivers; and to approach it, at the expense of all other design considerations, is sheer folly.
Regards,
WHG
My post responds to that of Smith, not yours.
Nevertheless, this response comes immediately to mind:
"perfect summation" is not obtainable amongst an assemblage of different, physically displaced, drivers; and to approach it, at the expense of all other design considerations, is sheer folly.
Regards,
WHG
Not true. If you intend to design a 1.order speaker then first of all you`ll need to think differently in every way comparing to a steeper design.
There will allways be some people that fails, but that doesnt mean it can`t be done right.
I could off course mention my build now but that`s another story.
Go ahead and show us your build Pale Rider(good name BTW). It would be very relevant to the topic.
Dan
Dan
I have always liked first order. Having built many designs including some of the best selling kit speakers in Australia I always come back to first order for my own gear.
To use first order is generally expensive both in terms of drivers and also in terms of the enclosure. That is why many more companies do not use it. They are more interested in $$$ and ease of production.
I had a hand in the development of Morel's DMS37 tweeter. It is timealigned with MW144/MW168 on a flat baffle. It is the only combination that I know of that attains this goal.
Hope this helps.
Terry
Im listening to this in dipole omni right now
drivers are just placed on the floor
drivers are nothing special, just used what I had
I have no idea what it is, but it works😛
despite cheap cheap drivers, classical especially is amasingly good
Im building other speakers, but I could live with this forever
Im sure theres a whole world of undiscouvered sound hidden in omni designs, and the crossover needed for such
what m trying to say is that every each speaker design has its own special demands for crossover design
and even if you have a good idea about what you want to achieve, you wont really know for sure until its built
drivers are just placed on the floor
drivers are nothing special, just used what I had
I have no idea what it is, but it works😛
despite cheap cheap drivers, classical especially is amasingly good
Im building other speakers, but I could live with this forever
Im sure theres a whole world of undiscouvered sound hidden in omni designs, and the crossover needed for such
what m trying to say is that every each speaker design has its own special demands for crossover design
and even if you have a good idea about what you want to achieve, you wont really know for sure until its built
Attachments
For a test, just turn the 1st order box upside down so the drivers are inverted. Can help with the ZDP cancelling the xo tilt. Drivers would need to be located accordingly to give an exact upward tilt but should be close enough for a listen.
A lot of overlapping of frequencies by non coincident drivers.
Look at what JA says: Stereophile: Thiel CS2 2 loudspeaker
Stereophile: Thiel CS2 2 loudspeaker
I believe John K once had a nice demo on his website, but I couldn't find it now.
Dan
Look at what JA says: Stereophile: Thiel CS2 2 loudspeaker
Stereophile: Thiel CS2 2 loudspeaker
I believe John K once had a nice demo on his website, but I couldn't find it now.
Dan
For me, a first order is good only if speakers need almost no filtering and no protection.
Second order is simple but not very good for soundstage and not very sharp to filter nasty midrange from a 15 inch bass woofer.
And finally third order is a good compromise for conventional speakers.
4th and 6th order are ok only for subwoofer but they have too much phase shift for midrange.
Hello Terry, could you please elaborate on the Morel drivers? Are the drivers
designed to be used together first order in a particular enclosure? If so, what are the crossover points or is a kit available? Thanks.
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