New member here. As explained in my intro I've been working with DIY audio since my teen years but have never found need to raise questions at a forum. Very difficult for me to keep it short especially as the application is unusual. Jump below the line to skip the description of the system and problem to specific questions.
I have an acoustic grand piano with a current model PianoForce player installed. Like other modern players it can play the instrument to synchronized audio.
The accompaniment has evolved since the installer of the unit originally mounted one AR "Powered Partner" to the underside.
Until recently it had two additional powered loudspeakers very similar the the ARs, an excellent Reel 10" powered sub plus the original AR now lying on the floor just behind the lyre (pedal assembly).
We were generally pleased with the sound--especially when near the piano--but since much of the listening done upstairs (the piano is in a very large rec room in the basement beneath the common area of the house) the lack of acoustic power in the midrange became apparent particularly with male vocal in the natural (not Steven Tyler) register. While it is certainly source dependent vocalists can sonically appear to be sitting on the piano bench. The general layout of the loudspeakers was designed to enhance this effect
So, I've been on a months-long search to find something--anything to use instead of the Powered Partner. Utter failure trying to find a scaled-up version of the Powered Partner with a 6" or so main driver. The shape (like a stage monitor) is crucial when used on the floor. A stop at a good pro audio store while visiting a city found a Yamaha (8" driver) suggested but I wasn't willing to plunk down over $700 for an experiment when the person I talked to said, "You really need a twelve-inch driver to convey the human voice."
Since I'd asked for something to essentially use in the human vocal frequencies of about 100hz to 2kh that statement about needing twelve-inch driver kept haunting me.
The piano easily overwhelms the present accompaniment. The amplitude of the piano compared to the accompaniment is very similar according to the old Tandy db meter and iPhone app (which are in very close agreement on weighted scales). My ears, meters and experience told me that I was missing volume in the accompaniment.
So I installed a Peavey 12" floor monitor from storage and direct connected through an old Soundcraftsman amp. Result: excellent sound--upstairs; not so good in the space with the instrument. Upstairs we agree--no louder than before--but "fuller." Exactly what I'm going for. In the rec room however imaging is no longer as nice and the thing is just too large. Another brand of 12" floor monitor at hand is even larger and more poorly proportioned for the applications.
I've been considering a custom build for some time and have been searching for driver(s). Remembering early years I wondered, "Does anyone make a good quality, large whizzer cone?" under the idea that such [should] produce an excellent driver for vocals that naturally falls off at higher frequencies above 2khz or so but potentially flat down to near 100hz. I've been using the Thiele-Small parameter calculator so frequently that I remember why my first computer program was done to do just that on a TRS-40 in 1983. Beyond what appears to be an ideal candidate as a whizzer, I've been using design parameters on drivers from 5" - 12"
The below is based upon the above. I'm very much open to alternatives from experience or theory!
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Loudspeaker for "vocal" element to accompaniment system for modern player piano
general design: sealed in the shape of a blunted wedge (stage monitor like); self-powered (ideally)
driver(s): "full" range--desired flat frequency range: 100hz-2kz (note 2khz NOT 20khz!)
special note: commercial loudspeakers attempted are an Acoustics Research Powered Partner (insufficient volume) and Peavey 12" floor monitor (obtrusive with poor transients/imaging)
I found the Eminence Legend B102 seemingly made for my specs. I found it while specifically searching for whizzer designs in a larger woofer. Searches here and elsewhere lead me to believe that it's at least a "good" loudspeaker. That said, musical instrument loudspeakers don't necessarily shine when it comes to the human voice and its transients. Any comments from those who have heard and used it?
My principle alternative to the above [seems] to be an array of smaller drivers. The only sonic advantage I can envision is increased accuracy. There is however a potential and significant aesthetic advantage as it be lower in profile (if not smaller in volume) compared to using a 10" or larger driver. I can also envision a situation similar to the present where I lack acoustic volume despite sufficient amplitude. Any specific driver suggestions should I go this route? I have a reasonable budget but consider things on the order of 4@$600per beyond reason. My ears are good but not that good.
Thanks!
I have an acoustic grand piano with a current model PianoForce player installed. Like other modern players it can play the instrument to synchronized audio.
The accompaniment has evolved since the installer of the unit originally mounted one AR "Powered Partner" to the underside.
Until recently it had two additional powered loudspeakers very similar the the ARs, an excellent Reel 10" powered sub plus the original AR now lying on the floor just behind the lyre (pedal assembly).
We were generally pleased with the sound--especially when near the piano--but since much of the listening done upstairs (the piano is in a very large rec room in the basement beneath the common area of the house) the lack of acoustic power in the midrange became apparent particularly with male vocal in the natural (not Steven Tyler) register. While it is certainly source dependent vocalists can sonically appear to be sitting on the piano bench. The general layout of the loudspeakers was designed to enhance this effect
So, I've been on a months-long search to find something--anything to use instead of the Powered Partner. Utter failure trying to find a scaled-up version of the Powered Partner with a 6" or so main driver. The shape (like a stage monitor) is crucial when used on the floor. A stop at a good pro audio store while visiting a city found a Yamaha (8" driver) suggested but I wasn't willing to plunk down over $700 for an experiment when the person I talked to said, "You really need a twelve-inch driver to convey the human voice."
Since I'd asked for something to essentially use in the human vocal frequencies of about 100hz to 2kh that statement about needing twelve-inch driver kept haunting me.
The piano easily overwhelms the present accompaniment. The amplitude of the piano compared to the accompaniment is very similar according to the old Tandy db meter and iPhone app (which are in very close agreement on weighted scales). My ears, meters and experience told me that I was missing volume in the accompaniment.
So I installed a Peavey 12" floor monitor from storage and direct connected through an old Soundcraftsman amp. Result: excellent sound--upstairs; not so good in the space with the instrument. Upstairs we agree--no louder than before--but "fuller." Exactly what I'm going for. In the rec room however imaging is no longer as nice and the thing is just too large. Another brand of 12" floor monitor at hand is even larger and more poorly proportioned for the applications.
I've been considering a custom build for some time and have been searching for driver(s). Remembering early years I wondered, "Does anyone make a good quality, large whizzer cone?" under the idea that such [should] produce an excellent driver for vocals that naturally falls off at higher frequencies above 2khz or so but potentially flat down to near 100hz. I've been using the Thiele-Small parameter calculator so frequently that I remember why my first computer program was done to do just that on a TRS-40 in 1983. Beyond what appears to be an ideal candidate as a whizzer, I've been using design parameters on drivers from 5" - 12"
The below is based upon the above. I'm very much open to alternatives from experience or theory!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Loudspeaker for "vocal" element to accompaniment system for modern player piano
general design: sealed in the shape of a blunted wedge (stage monitor like); self-powered (ideally)
driver(s): "full" range--desired flat frequency range: 100hz-2kz (note 2khz NOT 20khz!)
special note: commercial loudspeakers attempted are an Acoustics Research Powered Partner (insufficient volume) and Peavey 12" floor monitor (obtrusive with poor transients/imaging)
I found the Eminence Legend B102 seemingly made for my specs. I found it while specifically searching for whizzer designs in a larger woofer. Searches here and elsewhere lead me to believe that it's at least a "good" loudspeaker. That said, musical instrument loudspeakers don't necessarily shine when it comes to the human voice and its transients. Any comments from those who have heard and used it?
My principle alternative to the above [seems] to be an array of smaller drivers. The only sonic advantage I can envision is increased accuracy. There is however a potential and significant aesthetic advantage as it be lower in profile (if not smaller in volume) compared to using a 10" or larger driver. I can also envision a situation similar to the present where I lack acoustic volume despite sufficient amplitude. Any specific driver suggestions should I go this route? I have a reasonable budget but consider things on the order of 4@$600per beyond reason. My ears are good but not that good.
Thanks!
Well that is nonsense the human voice can be conveyed perfectly well over a set of earbuds, the challenge is producing the required SPL and frequency response for each given application. So higher SPL does require larger drivers to a point but there is a happy medium and in many ways larger diameter woofers(even fullrange models) are a step too far.
Couple points here...
1. you likely won't be able to achieve good acoustic results in both rooms at the same time with this approach, getting things loud enough to hear upstairs destroys the instrument/accompniment balance in the basement.
2. The passive PV speaker is loud but not refined... has a very non linear response, a modern self powered floor wedge would be much better behaved.
However given point 1 why have you not considered installing speakers upstairs? The ultimate solution would be to capture the instrument and produce a live mix with the playback track to achieve the desired balance and play that through upstairs speakers. You then have full control and that playback can be any level you like... background levels for comfortable conversations or party levels if you're in the mood.
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Thanks for the reply.
I'd never heard anyone make such a statement [12" driver needed to convey a human voice) but amplitude isn't volume and again my problem seems to be mainly one of volume. I thought of how a good solo vocalist in a good-sized acoustic band has no problem sans mic and amp. Not that I necessarily agree but it did strike me as a curious statement.
re: Using remote loudspeakers upstairs. I've definitely thought of that to include using a Bluetooth adapter or similar to tie it into the ground floor in-ceiling audio.
Even though I have a hard time believing my own words, I do get a surprisingly good balance between upstairs and downstairs. The basement stairway at one end of the large upstairs common space leads via fair length hallway to the big rec room with the piano well placed in a corner. The basement door becomes a surprisingly effective treble control. Of course the highs are quite damped but it makes for excellent background music from soft to moderately loud. This is the literal band corner but we haven't had bands for decades. It's a really nice acoustic spot for the entire home save the private wings.
With the player set to "normal volume" and the piano itself operating in the proper expressive (velocity) range intended for the piece it's like the band is back in the basement. And it sounds so close to truly live at times to be uncanny--both upstairs and down. It does though suffer from anemia.
The player unit has separate gain settings for the piano and accompaniment but they are not fully independent and the audio lead [seems] very low. The other speakers are all self-powered with their own preamps and their gain is very high to get proper balance. The experimental PV is direct wired and playing at a comparatively low level (thankfully--I've never cared for their "blurry" sound.)
Any experience with that 10" Eminence with whizzer? The manufacturer does claim it to be a "suitable professional audio mid-range."
I'd never heard anyone make such a statement [12" driver needed to convey a human voice) but amplitude isn't volume and again my problem seems to be mainly one of volume. I thought of how a good solo vocalist in a good-sized acoustic band has no problem sans mic and amp. Not that I necessarily agree but it did strike me as a curious statement.
re: Using remote loudspeakers upstairs. I've definitely thought of that to include using a Bluetooth adapter or similar to tie it into the ground floor in-ceiling audio.
Even though I have a hard time believing my own words, I do get a surprisingly good balance between upstairs and downstairs. The basement stairway at one end of the large upstairs common space leads via fair length hallway to the big rec room with the piano well placed in a corner. The basement door becomes a surprisingly effective treble control. Of course the highs are quite damped but it makes for excellent background music from soft to moderately loud. This is the literal band corner but we haven't had bands for decades. It's a really nice acoustic spot for the entire home save the private wings.
With the player set to "normal volume" and the piano itself operating in the proper expressive (velocity) range intended for the piece it's like the band is back in the basement. And it sounds so close to truly live at times to be uncanny--both upstairs and down. It does though suffer from anemia.
The player unit has separate gain settings for the piano and accompaniment but they are not fully independent and the audio lead [seems] very low. The other speakers are all self-powered with their own preamps and their gain is very high to get proper balance. The experimental PV is direct wired and playing at a comparatively low level (thankfully--I've never cared for their "blurry" sound.)
Any experience with that 10" Eminence with whizzer? The manufacturer does claim it to be a "suitable professional audio mid-range."
You are adding the speakers in the basement and playing them loudly enough to be heard upstairs?
Or adding the speakers upstairs and running wires down to the basement (which is much more suitable)?
And yes, that thing about needing a 12" driver for the human voice is silly.
He just wanted to upsell you. Ignore that.
Or adding the speakers upstairs and running wires down to the basement (which is much more suitable)?
And yes, that thing about needing a 12" driver for the human voice is silly.
He just wanted to upsell you. Ignore that.
My personal opinion is that some 6,5" drivers, marketed as PA-midrange speaker, sound excellent with human voice.
And I would consider a cubic enclosure with 4 or even 6 drivers into all directions.
And I would consider a cubic enclosure with 4 or even 6 drivers into all directions.
Yes, the loudspeakers are all in the basement. Two powered "bookshelf" (I'd call them "mini") units with 4" main drivers are firmly attached using sonic isolation to the main framing members underneath the piano. The powered subwoofer sits in front of the rear leg. The one in question goes behind the lyre (pedal unit).
Grand pianos produce a great volume of sound--even a good "baby" grand like I have. I have an excellent modern player that exhibits superb expression (dynamic range of notes actually played) but with the player's setting anything below what amounts to "practice level" it alone is clearly and nicely audible upstairs as well as down. I know others with similar player systems and pianos (w/ or w/o accompaniment) who use them the same way--in the basement of a large home for very nice background music upstairs and serious listening down. When you add accompaniment the true job it seems is to somewhat match the power of piano.
It is somewhat loud in the rec room (it's about 2,500 sf) with the piano and accompaniment at "normal" volume but utterly nothing compared to what I used to do in large room upstairs with Kilpshorns and OHM1s in the days when the pure fantasy of the Star Wars films I saw as a kid turned into getting something like a THX experience in the master bedroom. Of course the rear projection TVs we tried to convince ourselves were "good" were actually utter crap but at least the sound was great. Now I've gone to the opposite extreme with a nice big TV...and a minimal soundbar ;(
Exactly what I thought myself at the time. I made no comment although it genuinely didn't seem an upsell. I won't mention again yet my ongoing experiment does seem to support the notion. While I suppose it's completely unfair to compare a 4" "bass" driver in a vented enclosure to a 12" sealed enclosure but for the same amplitude the perceived difference in the full volume of sound is remarkable. It's the lack of detail that is the PV sound (to my ears) that's clearly inferior to the ARs.
A cabinet model Leslie unit is also in the plans but I want to get this and the miniDSP behind me first. The Leslie is another level of complexity entirely as I have to tap into the MIDI output, identify via instrument assignment (not simply channel number), extract and somehow develop a control to turn rotation on and off when acting as a "rock guitar" and convert the MIDI to audio all while maintaining synch with the player and its own perfectly synced accompaniment system
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I own a set of 8" eminence fullrange drivers with a wizzer cone, they do quite well through the vocal range.. very natural sounding. They are currently loaded in boxes with a 3/4" super tweeter that is tuned to just add a touch of topend air from 5khz up, I tried several other crossover configs and nothing sounded as good.
Why not place the added speakers upstairs? That would be the best way, and simpler.
You could have control of the sound level with something like this:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8246
You could have control of the sound level with something like this:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8246
There's an existing system of in-ceiling loudspeakers using very similar controls. Not the best quality but "good" 8" units. Fine for their use--an early wireless experimental integration to the system resulted in comparatively sh*^ t sound even before I added the sub and was operating with just the two mini loudspeakers attached beneath the piano.
I'm half jamming (upstairs) to Rock & Roll Band as I write. It's wonderful and extremely well balanced with decent highs. All good save the "PV sound" component...
Now Cherry, Cherry. Have been to two of his performances with good seats. It's almost like the real thing. Seriously.
Mixing the sound between floors utterly destroys the sonic image that appears throughout this big house.
Thanks for that direct information! I'm quite pleased with the present high-end which comes from the mini-speakers mounted to the underside of the piano and both firing sideways into a room corner one large wall of which is mirrored. The brand is Prosonic. Surely some Chinese import as I was experimenting and tried an Amazon purchase yet it does claim some sort of connection to California. Anyhow, they use very reasonable 1" silk dome tweeters and their general dispersion is perfect for the application. The main drivers are Klipsch knockoffs with the full cone (no dust cover) and copperish color.
Thanks for the input.
My heart jumped when my partner found four Renkus-Heniz TRX61s in storage. They had been left by a non-paying tenant. Unfortunately all are COMPLETE toast--main drivers, tweeters and crossovers.
I've definitely considered a multidirectional array with three smaller drivers arranged 130 or so degree arc. I have the skills and tools to make very nice cabinetry but don't know if I can make something both aesthetically pleasing and properly sturdy with anything approaching a "sculpted" enclosure.
Any specific driver recommendations? Sealed enclosure as compact as possible without using a ridiculously high Qtc in hope that I don't exceed the limits of the very expensive loudspeakers [claimed] to be OK with such designs.
To add a bit of clarity:
I'm not trying to make it sound good upstairs. First it has to sound good downstairs! When it's good downstairs it's good upstairs as well.
My goal is an accompaniment system that matches the acoustic power of the piano itself throughout its range.
Again, live bands have performed in the same area many times. For whatever reason it's some kind of acoustic sweet spot for the entire home. At present using the experimental Peavey as the center/vocal element it does sound better upstairs as the rough (or whatever you want to call it) sound of the PV is diminished.
The very same flaw (lack of midrange) is present in the big room once you leave the reasonable proximity of the piano. The physical piano however does not exhibit the same behavior even when playing most or all keys well below its maximum velocity (loudness). A large upright antique player piano in the same room does not exhibit the same house-filling behavior despite having a larger soundboard and higher measured peak SPL. Nor does the vintage jukebox fairly close to the grand just outside "band corner."
After hearing my description of the setup the salesman told me he knows someone who works with similar pianos and said, "You know if you have your mounting and phasing right and the sync is perfect that the soundboard goes into sympathetic vibration, right?" I said, "Oh yes. That's why I mentioned extremely firm yet acoustically isolated (via HDPM rubber roofing) mounting to the piano frame members."
This is the one I can recommend
https://www.monacor.de/produkte/components/lautsprechertechnik/pa-mitteltoener-/sp-6-100pa/
Thanks again! That does seem to be a nice drive. Well made, good specs and not an eye-popping cost in multiples.
How does this strike you for a design? Given the placement (on the floor) and location (behind the lyre of a grand piano) a basic cube doesn't [seem] to be the best shape.
The fair drawing is of a two-driver module. The rough sketch shows three such modules atop a short pedestal. The three modules are staggered for a broader "spread."
Oh. Velcro between modules to allow simple directional adjustment without any chance of noise. The amp goes in the pedestal. I'm still brainstorming connecting the modules as it would be best if the can be separated this will be a tricky connection to make is reasonably easy to use.
After looking at my own post I MUST add:
The resemblance to the Bose 901 is purely coincidental. I've never been a fan even if the general driver design impressed me long ago and seems to have become the norm for smaller full-range loudspeakers.
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That sounds like a deliberate damage. I've never ever experienced a complete fail of all drivers unless it was intentional.
I've used these drivers before and they are relyable and sound good and they have been in the Monacor program for over 30 years for a reason. However,they are not mid bass drivers. They are mid drivers and will perform nicely above ~200 Hz but are not suitable for a top/sat.
To be honest I cannot give qualified advice for your grand piano amplification cause I am a guitar player.
So you may take this with a grain of salt.
So you may take this with a grain of salt.
Thank you for the continued input. It's exactly what I joined the forum to experience!
I'm involved in the DIY auditory project of my lifetime--literally...no way I'll be around and capable for another revolution and physical laws remain physical laws to only be idealized.
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Your application is as amplified accompaniment to your own voice and instrument, correct? If so does a club DJ (me) say, "You HAVE to speak/sing louder!." Do you sing into the deep bass?
I'm not at all trying to amplify the physical piano; just somewhat match it in volume across the acoustic and dynamic range of the human voice between 100hz and 2khz.
Impossible to know. Two were marked "bad." The first found all four retaining screws out of the main driver when it failed to play. That driver did show resistance across its terminals to make the unmistakable sound of a "blown" speaker with an open tweeter. Morbid curiosity found both drivers open in the next three and no tweeter output from the crossover on the two not marked as "bad." The tenant made good money with excellent music live and recorded. He also had a nose problem not attributable to allergies.
Definitely noticed the roll-off of SP-6 below 175-200 hz. However I liked the gentle upslope which I suspect reflects increasing accuracy up to about 2k with that nice little dip around 825hz in the soprano region. I'd already conceded "special" equalization to boost bass a necessary compromise of a multi-driver design [in this application?]. I'd already investigated a lot of drivers in this size range and it's great to hear direct experiences with drivers that might work for this use.
Am still in a quandary between a single driver unit and an array.
"Naturally" flat performance down to this
When I listen to the beautiful tone of my 1982 Sohmer console, I'm playing it, so no reproduction required. I do use a PA amp mike and speaker to boost my voice when I sing for an audience. Like with the Baldwin at church. I put a cardioid lapel mike 1" from my mouth to avoid boosting the piano over the PA speaker. It is only a 40 seat hall. The classic SM58 mike setup on boom from the side will not allow me to read the music on the rack of a console.
My go to speaker is a Peavey SP2(2004) which cost me $400 for the pair, and $120 to go get it 130 miles away from craigslist. Best reproduction of Steinway grand of any speaker I have heard in this flyover town. 15" woofer + 1" CD (compression driver) on horn. +- 3db 54 hz to 17500 hz. Harmonic distortion 25 db down from response at 5 Watts, published in the datasheet. If I wanted a particular frequency band amplified upstairs with the piano downstairs, I would put a SP2(2004) up there and use a graphic equalizer to turn down the frequencies that did not need boosting. Warning, my hearing stops at 14000 hz due to the US Army. Further warning, SP2 for sale new now has been changed to allow 1000 w response, and does not have the flat frequency response or harmonic distortion spec of the 2004 models. When buying used, look for the 500 w label on the back. Also on craigslist, take and amp and CD player to test anything you buy at the vendors location. I did.
With SP2 all over the used market, it is a cheap experiment that does not require a lot of carpentry and crossover tuning. Your design looks like a Bose. I have to say, I heard Bose 901s in 1972 when I had better hearing, and thought they were ****. AR3 might have been okay but all the store would demonstrate was Simon & Garfunkle, which has no highs or lows. Our band director told us to listen in 1966 to the Altec Lansing VoiceOfTheater at a local cinema, which mightily impressed me. Hence the Peavey copies. I have never lived in a city with an Altec Lansing dealer, and could not afford VOT before they closed the factory.
If you want a cheap adequate mono amp, Peavey MMA-875t or MMA8150t are fine. Also Crown 160MA, 135MA or 180MA.
Miking live wood piano is difficult. I had good results with a Shure KSM27, now stolen. KSM33 is still in production but $1000. Voice mikes will NOT do the job. You'll need a mixer with phantom power to run a condensor mike.
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