@indianjo
Thank you for your comments regarding "boosting" your own voice to the physical piano you are playing.
To be utterly clear, I am not amplifying a piano. I am not singing. The live music comes from a modern player piano automatically synced to acoustic and/or vocal accompaniment whose ultimate source is either MIDI or audio such as .ogg, .wav, .mp3, etc.
The problem is at least approaching the acoustic power of a grand piano in a large space.
The piano is highly expressive so this is not a problem of it playing too loudly.
Upon installation of the player I had a "system" with with AR Powered Partner with its excellent sound but very limited 4" driver. I soon added two similar loudspeakers also with 4" drivers and a 10" "subwoofer."
Resulting sound finds superb imaging if anemic upper bass and midrange that fades quickly with distance.
I'm looking to fill that acoustic hole with a center/vocal unit whose main driver is both accurate and has a flat response between 100hz and 2khz (vocal range).
Am experimenting with a 12" PV stage monitor. I've folded four layers of not-so-acoustically transparent knit fabric across it to dampen the harshness I find in PV loudspeakers. The overall volume of sound is about right and I can barely clip the honest 200wpc continuous amp driving the PV. FAR from ideal as the vocals and transients are very poor compared to the AR it replaced.
Thank you for your comments regarding "boosting" your own voice to the physical piano you are playing.
To be utterly clear, I am not amplifying a piano. I am not singing. The live music comes from a modern player piano automatically synced to acoustic and/or vocal accompaniment whose ultimate source is either MIDI or audio such as .ogg, .wav, .mp3, etc.
The problem is at least approaching the acoustic power of a grand piano in a large space.
The piano is highly expressive so this is not a problem of it playing too loudly.
Upon installation of the player I had a "system" with with AR Powered Partner with its excellent sound but very limited 4" driver. I soon added two similar loudspeakers also with 4" drivers and a 10" "subwoofer."
Resulting sound finds superb imaging if anemic upper bass and midrange that fades quickly with distance.
I'm looking to fill that acoustic hole with a center/vocal unit whose main driver is both accurate and has a flat response between 100hz and 2khz (vocal range).
Am experimenting with a 12" PV stage monitor. I've folded four layers of not-so-acoustically transparent knit fabric across it to dampen the harshness I find in PV loudspeakers. The overall volume of sound is about right and I can barely clip the honest 200wpc continuous amp driving the PV. FAR from ideal as the vocals and transients are very poor compared to the AR it replaced.
Thanks again! I've been experimenting and listening. Also searching the rafters for anything remotely suitable for experimenting.
With drivers of that size I'd already conceded some EQ to cut the treble. (Yes, I know that means I need more driver area.) The very gentle and even rise in their output curve up to 2kh seems ideal for this purpose. That's what I like about them. I did a lot of searching for drivers of that size and that [seems] the best in by memory and better especially with price when it comes to a larger array than the one I'd bookmarked.
I'm about to cobble together a mismatched array as something of an experiment. Have dug up six known working "satellite" as I called them in the 90s loudspeakers all with 4" - 5" main drivers.
Will experiment with your suggestions to include firing in all directions with a few days to listen both downstairs and up. So far, the more driver area I can throw at it the better to better balance the accompaniment to the piano both downstairs (where it resides) and upstairs (where we typically listen).
Fortunately I have remote adjustment of the accompaniment level as separate from the main (piano + accompaniment) level.
@ICG You are correct!
I questioned the history of these and some other items drug out of storage.
Worse than the non-paying tenant--a very bad manager who likely connected the other end of a 1/4" phone plug cable to the main power when breaking in after being locked out of the property. He's now in prison--molested little girls so he's surely having a fine ol'' time.
I do not understand why you are putting sound reinforcement equipment under the piano, when the missing frequencies of sound occur upstairs. Great pianos have a massive lightweight soundboard on the bottom or back, which would have a large tendency to pick up sound from another sound source in the local area, and emit a distorted version of the external sound. Recording studios mike and isolate acoustic pianos very carefully - which is why most studios and stage bands have started using electronic toys to make pianolike sounds.
Your stairwell or open well or whatever from basement to upstairs acts as a frequency filter for the sound upstairs. I believe you reported certain sounds are acceptable upstairs, whereas upper bass & mid is missing.
I would treat this as any PA problem, where missing frequencies are filtered from the sound source, as picked up by a microphone, and delivered to the part of the room/house/venue where the customers want to hear them. Sometimes a delay line or appliance is required to make the PA delivered frequencies match in time to the acoustically delivered frequencies.
I would put the sound delivery device, IE speaker, near the customers (you) upstairs that are complaining about the sound. If you do not want wiring through the house to deliver the missing frequencies, radio devices are available. One such is called "bluetooth". Another is the local FM transmitter/radio combination.
I would like to point out Peavey 12" stage monitors never had any published harmonic distortion specification, nor in most cases, even a +- X db specification over the frequency range. Mine sounds very low-fi, and has been banished to my summer camp trailer, play the FM radio louder than 2 watts with a bigger than 1" woofer. By contrast, the SP2(2004) speaker has such a specification, and my ears indicate in my Wein Philharmonika shaped music room, a confirmation of the superior performance. At 1 to 5 watts. I have not seen any other $600 list price speaker having such a HD specification published. Aftermarket test bureaus have published such HD specs for other brands, see for example erinsaudiocorner.com He covers JBL extensively, which reputable pro sound products are not for sale within 160 miles of my flyover city. The JBL consumer junk is available, the ones with +-10 db frequency specs.
Again, I would install such a high quality speaker in the venue(house) area having the problem, feed with a signal developed by a good microphone in the basement where the piano is, filtered by a graphic equalizer/dsp/delay device, to boost the frequencies of interest to the desired location. If some of the missing sound comes from the soundboard of the expensive piano, it is likely a cardioid condensor mike of $300-1000 will be required. I have read some studios tape a pair of AT4030 under the soundboard of a grand piano. No direct experience doing this. As expensive as the wood of a piano soundboard is, I would not use adhesive tape, but instead mike stands.
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This is not reinforcement of the physically playing piano, it's electronically reproduced accompaniment. That large, stiff, light soundboard is excited by the loudspeakers attached to the frame and placed beneath. This is especially noticeable in the low bass where all but the longest concert grands find strings largely vibrating at at fundamentals and not the central frequency. The piano's soundboard actually reinforces the deepest vibrations of the loudspeakers. Imaging is also superb and vocalist often sound as if they are sitting on the bench singing towards the piano despite the fact that the center/vocal unit points directly up and forward from the floor just behind piano pedals.
I follow you in the above although, again, the "missing frequencies" occur everywhere. It is evidenced as a lack of power and fullness compared to the physically playing piano in the same frequency range--namely around 100hz to 1.5 kz by estimated based upon measurement to my limited ability.
The better it sounds in its location downstairs the better it sounds throughout the entire home. Small bands have played in that location many times in the past. It's some sort of lucky sonic sweet spot for the entire home. The band doesn't overwhelm downstairs yet it is perfect party level background music upstairs when you get away from the crowd or whatever.
I've used every sound meter available to me--a Tandy db meter; a Tandy "applause" meter and multiple phones using multiple apps to confirm that the piano--house wide--establishes the maximum sound pressure level on all measures, b weight, a weight and peak.
The additional electronic accompaniment I want is necessary to somewhat rival the piano when playing solo. It is superb throughout the house. I would never consider using a mic to "simulcast" it upstairs. My Klipschorns never did this well reproducing piano at any frequency range (No I won't even try in this application.)
I'm reasonably pleased with the volume of sound produced by the Peavy as the center/vocal loudspeaker but this is experimentation only. I genuinely prefer the little AR when it comes to imaging and detail, especially when listening downstairs.
My experiments so far reveal locating the accompaniment loudspeakers away from the piano explodes/confuses/collapses the sonic image and introduces serious phasing problems in the deepest bass. I lack the equipment to introduce sonic delays in this way. Instead of a band in the basement it's a PA system helping an audible yet remote live source.
I'm oddly reminded of when I was young and we stayed in a still grand old hotel suite with "piped in" music. Something similar to the hinged door wall heating register in old schoolrooms rather like a hinged door heat register used near the ceiling in old schoolrooms it did a surprising job of filling the parlor with sound from the live band playing below. The music was surprisingly adjustable and room filling. The coincidental arrangement of the long hallway and stairway at the end as related to the instrument's placement in the big rec room [seems] to be functioning.
Yes, that's a major issue. If you care so much more about the look then just don't bother with any reinforcement. If you care about it, do it properly and follow the physics or drop it completely because none of it will be satisfying then.
That's not how speakers should be used. And you are wrong, the frequencies are not amplified but just prolonged by the resonances. That gives the impression to be louder which is actually a deceiving impression. If you just want that, get a 50 bucks high Qts 15" driver, put it in a 100l enclosure, done. That doesn't have anything to do with HIFI or good sound reproduction.
Perhaps not, but we love the effect as do others with similar installations. And it very much [seems] to work the way I suggest with sonic reinforcement of/from the piano soundboard. It's most noticeable in orchestral pieces. Bolero last evening was excellent. Tight and positively subsonic.
@ICG The down-firing subwoofer in particular [seems] to extend the frequency response of the piano's soundboard and visa-versa. Many of my accompanied files are sourced from MIDIs and I have full control over accompaniment in relationship to the physical piano via my personal programming as was as programming by others. Compared to clubs and such where I ordinarily set up "live" systems I'm getting harmonic infrasonic resonance. The 5'2" Baldwin "M" (the original "baby grand piano") is known for bass that belies its length; of course many call this "fake" bass because by technical understanding it cannot be real. I've been a clean and pure bass freak all my life. I'm close to Nirvina.
Not a single one of my sound pressure level meters (a Tandy db meter, a Tandy "applause meter" and multiple apps on an iPhone 10) indicate that A-weighted sound is never "louder" It gets "more or less full." Literally my loudest instrument in the house is an old pneumatic player piano incorrectly called an "upright grand" due to the size of the soundboard. It is in the same big basement room and despite being louder does not carry through the house in anything approaching the same manner. The craziest A-weighted numbers I get are from the old player in the high treble where the felt around the wooden hammers has been shaved to near peach fuzz.
Not a single one of my sound pressure level meters (a Tandy db meter, a Tandy "applause meter" and multiple apps on an iPhone 10) indicate that A-weighted sound is never "louder" It gets "more or less full." Literally my loudest instrument in the house is an old pneumatic player piano incorrectly called an "upright grand" due to the size of the soundboard. It is in the same big basement room and despite being louder does not carry through the house in anything approaching the same manner. The craziest A-weighted numbers I get are from the old player in the high treble where the felt around the wooden hammers has been shaved to near peach fuzz.
Perhaps this, my third attempt at an update, won't turn into a book (again) 🙁
I've been experimenting with every loudspeaker in the home and storage. I'm doing my best to find what will work while using the least possible corrective equalization.
I found four pairs plus one single all using an approximately 4" "main" driver and tweeter (most but not all of the dome variety). The upper-bass "hole" remained and I don't believe any reasonable amount of EQ could change the situation. The one nice thing is that I could arrange them in all sorts of way (save the two permanently mounted) to get some interesting if highly consistent imaging.
Nothing I could do with the Peavey 12" stage monitor to include disconnecting the horn and covering the woofer with multiple layers of not-too-acoustically transparent knit fabric resulted in good sound where the instrument is installed--harsh and muddied. The only good thing is that it did a reasonable job of filling the sonic hole upstairs where most listening occurs.
I put a Klipsch Forte behind the pedals and underneath the piano. Sonic hole--filled. Hideously unattractive--yes. I put the pair on either side and guess what? The bass reinforcement that produces infrasonic vibrations that make you feel a helicopter is truly landing on your roof disappear! While I am something of a bass freak it has to be tight, clean bass.
My final and longest lasting experiment is with of all things a pair of Bose 301s. You never know what renters leave behind... Frankly I thought the light, cheap feeling things wouldn't be worth the trouble to make loudspeaker cables without proper terminations 😉 The bass hole is reasonably balanced both downstairs and up. The nominal 8" drivers used in them [seem] to have rather low excursion which speaks well for accuracy. The soundstage suffers however--both downstairs and up. I'm working with a mono audio source and the 301s have some serious "beaming" problems it seems. MIDI voices that sound fine on other loudspeakers can be kaka with the Bose.
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Please forgive my previous statement to not mention this again, but in this application where I most desire a single loudspeaker to convey a human voice I returned to about the only "live" audio businesses (FORGET home audio unless you want to make an appointment and have at least two digits to the left of the comma in your price) in St. Louis. He's the one who suggested that it just can't be done without a 12" driver. I thought it bizarre at the time but I did not contradict. When I returned to ask if they are dealers for Eminence loudspeakers (they are) I had to say given my experimentation, "I can't really disagree." Do recall here that range is not quality of reproduction across that range.
My working plan is to use a 10" Eminence with whizzer cone in an upright rectangular enclosure of minimal circumference with the upper-front where the driver is installed angled approximately 30 degrees upwards. Eminence suggests a vented enclosure for this particular loudspeaker to lower bass performance but that is not my goal. This design also gives me some space to isolate the internal amplifier from the loudspeaker as it becomes a mini-tower.
I've been experimenting with every loudspeaker in the home and storage. I'm doing my best to find what will work while using the least possible corrective equalization.
I found four pairs plus one single all using an approximately 4" "main" driver and tweeter (most but not all of the dome variety). The upper-bass "hole" remained and I don't believe any reasonable amount of EQ could change the situation. The one nice thing is that I could arrange them in all sorts of way (save the two permanently mounted) to get some interesting if highly consistent imaging.
Nothing I could do with the Peavey 12" stage monitor to include disconnecting the horn and covering the woofer with multiple layers of not-too-acoustically transparent knit fabric resulted in good sound where the instrument is installed--harsh and muddied. The only good thing is that it did a reasonable job of filling the sonic hole upstairs where most listening occurs.
I put a Klipsch Forte behind the pedals and underneath the piano. Sonic hole--filled. Hideously unattractive--yes. I put the pair on either side and guess what? The bass reinforcement that produces infrasonic vibrations that make you feel a helicopter is truly landing on your roof disappear! While I am something of a bass freak it has to be tight, clean bass.
My final and longest lasting experiment is with of all things a pair of Bose 301s. You never know what renters leave behind... Frankly I thought the light, cheap feeling things wouldn't be worth the trouble to make loudspeaker cables without proper terminations 😉 The bass hole is reasonably balanced both downstairs and up. The nominal 8" drivers used in them [seem] to have rather low excursion which speaks well for accuracy. The soundstage suffers however--both downstairs and up. I'm working with a mono audio source and the 301s have some serious "beaming" problems it seems. MIDI voices that sound fine on other loudspeakers can be kaka with the Bose.
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Please forgive my previous statement to not mention this again, but in this application where I most desire a single loudspeaker to convey a human voice I returned to about the only "live" audio businesses (FORGET home audio unless you want to make an appointment and have at least two digits to the left of the comma in your price) in St. Louis. He's the one who suggested that it just can't be done without a 12" driver. I thought it bizarre at the time but I did not contradict. When I returned to ask if they are dealers for Eminence loudspeakers (they are) I had to say given my experimentation, "I can't really disagree." Do recall here that range is not quality of reproduction across that range.
My working plan is to use a 10" Eminence with whizzer cone in an upright rectangular enclosure of minimal circumference with the upper-front where the driver is installed angled approximately 30 degrees upwards. Eminence suggests a vented enclosure for this particular loudspeaker to lower bass performance but that is not my goal. This design also gives me some space to isolate the internal amplifier from the loudspeaker as it becomes a mini-tower.