thanks xrk, yes I am a semi-professional artist/producer/mixer/sound-designer (like apprentice level).
With the FF105WK I sometimes use with the minidsp/eq and sometimes with just a simple lepai amp (no eq). Using the minidsp with the satori/rs28f now so mostly just living with it (eq-ing in my brain). In my sealed box I mostly have two peaks to deal with : one 6797hz -5.9db q3.4 and 1161hz -5.6db q4.1. After EQ the FF105WK is quite brilliant. I might do a FAST with it someday, but for now I want to keep it like an "auratone" style box.
The attached graphs are without smoothing, 15cm distance, slight off-axis (~5deg, how I listen) with a calibrated ECM8000 mic. As you can see from the no-eq graph, my peaks are much more controlled and not that annoying (easy to live with).
Box built with EVA foam. Someday I really want to write a post about using EVA foam for speaker building.
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That doesn't look so bad at all. So you like building speakers out of foam? Have I got a thread for you!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/223313-foam-core-board-speaker-enclosures.html
Never used EVA foam as wall material but have used foam core and XPS foam insulation.
Yes I know that thread 😀 it is the reason/motivation I started with the EVA foam. So very big thank you for your inspiration and nice to meet you finally.
EVA is pretty awesome stuff, it is used for soundproofing so it has natural damping and low resonance, it is flexible so it is easy to make curves, and it can be wet-sanded so easy make very smooth finishing. On my satori speaker I laminate sheets to give me 20mm and 30mm thick panels.
Thanks for the elaboration of your audio environment. You basically have access to lots of gear and components. That's great and useful to allow lots of builds and experimentation. I used to have just a few types of drivers to work with but due to the generosity of members I now have over two dozen and the number of amps is catching up.
If you have seen my work I build quite a bit more than once a year. Try once a month if not more often. Still I manage to post because that is how I can learn from feedback from others.
I think that once a year remark was directed to me as I did mention something along the lines of that. That didn't include the 3 year span of research that went on before that and probably wasn't clear that it was almost like a full time job during that year. Spending 6 ours a day in the garage 🙄.
Not to glorify myself, on the contrary... borderline crazy stuff 😀. But I just had to know! So I needed to do this. And I don't regret it.
Naah... If I'm directing to someone I will mention the name. But I tend to think "globally", not directing to anyone personal, even tho I usually use the word "you" (sometimes I changed it into "we").
My projects are different. I rarely build things and keep the result. When I have popular drivers then I build ALL designs out there, one by one until I find the best one, then build my version to beat that one. And I mix and match drivers. Often I modify the drivers to meet certain objective.
Several days ago, inspired by your effort to do the filler driver ala B&O, I pulled my old transient perfect design and tried my best midrange. Nice, but I don't want to sacrifice my best midrange in that design.
This week I have purchased a pair of new 12" drivers. No brand, but it sounds good for the price. Removed the whizzers, played a few crossovers and stored it for future project (no time for T/S measurement yet).
This week I have purchased a pair of 3-way speaker. Pulled out the drivers and compare with drivers already on hand. Average value.
This week I have purchased a pair of Sony 2-way speaker. Thought it was so good but turned out to be soso when played at home. Pulled out the drivers, packed them for storage, don't know what to do yet with the enclosures.
This week I have experimented with 6 drivers (4x8", 2x12"). Changing the cones, find a way to stiffen a paper cone. Made own coils and formers.
This week I have purchased speaker enclosures for prototyping a new speaker. Too small, not low enough. Have purchased plywood, drawn and cut, put under sofa 😀
This week I blown my ring radiator tweeter, so trying to find a replacement tweeter from my stock. Turned out to be a new speaker with 10" woofer. Been listening for 2/3 days to decide to keep it or not.
In next 2 days, I think I will build at least one 80W amplifier...
But just tonight I opened up a 48" TV in my living room after trying various antenna and receivers. Disassembled every bit and pieces. Unexpected work ahead of me 😡
I would love to see both the TC9FD and TG9FD included in the next test.
I would also love to see the 830983 (2"), FF85wk and NE65 included especially since your plan is to cross over at 350hz. One isn't required to use 3-4" drivers if the FAST cross over is that high.
830983 Transducer Detail | Tymphany
NE65 Transducer Detail | Tymphany
xrk, subjectively do you like the 10f/8424 more than the tc9 and tg9?
I am in the process of putting an order together. Shipping to Japan is very expensive (starts at $60) so I tend to do one big order (over $200 so $260 with shipping) and work with the drivers for a year. Local dealers charge almost double for drivers here, so it is still cheaper to buy from europe-audio with the expensive shipping than buy locally. Of course fostex drivers are cheap here since they are made in Japan.
If I buy the tc9, tg9, 830986 and 830983 it is about the same cost as the 10f/8424.
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Hi Jeshi,
Ok I can include TC9/TG9 together. I don't have the other drivers you mention: FF85WK, P830983, and NE65. So unless you or another member provides them to the cause, they won't make it into the test. This thread was only possible through the generous support of members who have provided me almost all the drivers here.
Regarding the family feud between TC9/TG9/10F8424 - I do prefer the sound of the 10F8424. It is subtle though and under many circumstances the TC9 or TG9 are very capable. If you can get all those other drivers for the price of the 10F then that is the way to go. The 10F has slightly better sensitivity of almost 88dB and a lower Qts allowing for smaller volume vented alignments. The sound signature is very similar but the 10F sounds better subjectively.
The difference between good and great usually is very subtle 🙂.
If you like making speakers get all the other drivers. If you like hearing music I'd go for the 10F and ooze out every bit of performance with a good fast design...
If you like making speakers get all the other drivers. If you like hearing music I'd go for the 10F and ooze out every bit of performance with a good fast design...
+1, if you want great music with all the performance, and this is your main speaker... don't mess around and plunk down the cash for the 10F. It's very very good 🙂
Jeshi,
Agree wesayso and xrk971 regarding 10F/8424G00, probably the last step from good to great.
I have TC9FD too and it's very great value or maybe even one of the best in the right hands, example take a look at wesayso's line array thread, think if you can afford it take a pair those no matter you go for 10F or not.
Below is dirty and quick setup where 10F replaced TC9FD, and on my way building a common baffle those two drivers in a flat box designed wall mounting as Overkill Audio often suggest, so lets see what that brings.
In start the FAST setup was acoustic BW1 350 XO but over time discovered the perfect sound was really only present at mic spot in space where the acoustic slope targets where tuned in, or at least what i think was happening because i had some low level detail never heard before at other listening spots. It's now running a acoustic LR4 at 500Hz and small EQ corrections done with IIR filters in JRiver, then a XO LR4 neutralizing phase FIR convolution filter made in RePhase. The setup is quick and dirty and needs far more tweaking investigation and documentation with new box, but can say still its the closest i had been to ala headphone sound out in my room.
Agree wesayso and xrk971 regarding 10F/8424G00, probably the last step from good to great.
I have TC9FD too and it's very great value or maybe even one of the best in the right hands, example take a look at wesayso's line array thread, think if you can afford it take a pair those no matter you go for 10F or not.
Below is dirty and quick setup where 10F replaced TC9FD, and on my way building a common baffle those two drivers in a flat box designed wall mounting as Overkill Audio often suggest, so lets see what that brings.
In start the FAST setup was acoustic BW1 350 XO but over time discovered the perfect sound was really only present at mic spot in space where the acoustic slope targets where tuned in, or at least what i think was happening because i had some low level detail never heard before at other listening spots. It's now running a acoustic LR4 at 500Hz and small EQ corrections done with IIR filters in JRiver, then a XO LR4 neutralizing phase FIR convolution filter made in RePhase. The setup is quick and dirty and needs far more tweaking investigation and documentation with new box, but can say still its the closest i had been to ala headphone sound out in my room.
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Byrtt,
That response looks beautiful. Must sound awesome - distortion is quite low too. I think you have a winner. Do you think a simple sealed in 10F is sufficient or does the DCR provide a wider bandwidth that makes the response integrate easier? Maybe not if 4th order LR.
Congratulations.
That response looks beautiful. Must sound awesome - distortion is quite low too. I think you have a winner. Do you think a simple sealed in 10F is sufficient or does the DCR provide a wider bandwidth that makes the response integrate easier? Maybe not if 4th order LR.
Congratulations.
Thanks X you the one that shared hard work comparison threads and pointed us to 10F/TG9/TC9 as good performers.
Yeah must sound awesome or else i'm sick 🙂 in that i haven't moved a single setting since new XO (2-3 months). Think after i upped XO point to 500Hz sealed will be sufficient and intend try your Dagger at first as sealed then open up end if sealed miss anything. The new box will have drivers closer with CTC around 180mm and think if steering for a 475Hz XO point should give me progress on vertical lobe compared to what i hear at moment where its 240mm/500Hz actual sound and feels very good. The vertical lobe stuff i got hinted by Barleywater when he share his investigations and experience, when i get the time will try study his hints for Kirkeby inverse transfer functions too. Regarding the vertical lobe why i seek the 1/4 wave at XO point is because playing one particular track VAN HALEN 1984 album track 6. HOT FOR TEACHER have to be vertical on axis middle between drivers else some few tam-tam drum kicks fail timing in start of track where heavy dobbelt kick pedal used on bass drum.
The biggest progress was when upped XO point which i had tried out many times but this last time i phase neutralized the IIR XO and then it rocked as seen on SR when knowing real XO is IRR LR4. This setup is the most less track dependant i had and goes within the headphone note in previous post and think it was exchanging TC9FD for 10F that tipped the weight. Hope not sound as this is worlds best speaker or drivers or something, all details and experience so far these drivers is just to share if any can get ideas some of it.
PS To curious comparison thread readers some pre objective data for round 3 drivers is to find else where here in diya site for A7 paper and B80 if you seek 😉, one looks good for some bad for others, the other looks good for others and bad for some 😛...The other that i think looks bad is a disaster if one look describing words in datasheet 😕.
Yeah must sound awesome or else i'm sick 🙂 in that i haven't moved a single setting since new XO (2-3 months). Think after i upped XO point to 500Hz sealed will be sufficient and intend try your Dagger at first as sealed then open up end if sealed miss anything. The new box will have drivers closer with CTC around 180mm and think if steering for a 475Hz XO point should give me progress on vertical lobe compared to what i hear at moment where its 240mm/500Hz actual sound and feels very good. The vertical lobe stuff i got hinted by Barleywater when he share his investigations and experience, when i get the time will try study his hints for Kirkeby inverse transfer functions too. Regarding the vertical lobe why i seek the 1/4 wave at XO point is because playing one particular track VAN HALEN 1984 album track 6. HOT FOR TEACHER have to be vertical on axis middle between drivers else some few tam-tam drum kicks fail timing in start of track where heavy dobbelt kick pedal used on bass drum.
The biggest progress was when upped XO point which i had tried out many times but this last time i phase neutralized the IIR XO and then it rocked as seen on SR when knowing real XO is IRR LR4. This setup is the most less track dependant i had and goes within the headphone note in previous post and think it was exchanging TC9FD for 10F that tipped the weight. Hope not sound as this is worlds best speaker or drivers or something, all details and experience so far these drivers is just to share if any can get ideas some of it.
PS To curious comparison thread readers some pre objective data for round 3 drivers is to find else where here in diya site for A7 paper and B80 if you seek 😉, one looks good for some bad for others, the other looks good for others and bad for some 😛...The other that i think looks bad is a disaster if one look describing words in datasheet 😕.
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Byrtt,
Indeed a great start using such a mash up. That wall box is horrendous source of early reflections. I highly recommend exploring a Linkwitz Pluto type mounting as with my TC9FD platform. And you will gain insight into why 500Hz crossover is much better choice than 350Hz if you look at my recent TC9FD FAST post.
Indeed a great start using such a mash up. That wall box is horrendous source of early reflections. I highly recommend exploring a Linkwitz Pluto type mounting as with my TC9FD platform. And you will gain insight into why 500Hz crossover is much better choice than 350Hz if you look at my recent TC9FD FAST post.
Is the main reason to use 500Hz xo frequency to reduce the harmonic distortion of the mid/tweet by keeping its displacement very small? I have tried 400Hz and 500Hz xo's and find them more pleasing to the ears than 250Hz or 350Hz. Is the answer simy less distortion? Also, it lets a large cone woofer do the heavy hitting with the upper bass "punch".
Speculate that the actual "more pleasing" note is because the discovery of steeper XO slopes (link: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor-65.html#post4398911) with fair good linear phase at XO point was discovered, where before when using textbook steeper slopes 2.order and up and their inherent phase distortion at XO point ruined some a better sound especially because that phase distortion when going higher XO point got more into telephone band. Barleywater seems no matter frq point, steepness of XO, always have the XO phase distortion that IIR domain add fully repaired somewhere in system chain, sometimes even that his system has real world IIR bandpass limit, one can't see it in his phase plots 😎.
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Round 3 and Round 4
Due to the latest batch of drivers that have been generously provided by other members, I will have to do a Round 3 of new drivers before we can go to the final round 4. Folks are interested in 2in full range drivers now and that makes good sense from a FAST implementation. I want to thank all the contributors of the drivers for making this possible. 🙂
The new drivers for Round 3 are:
SB Accoustics SB6WBAC25-4 2.5in aluminum cone Nd magnet
Peerless P830983 2in aluminum cone Nd magnet
Tang Band W3-1364SA 3in bamboo cone Nd magnet
GR Research LGK 3in paper cone ferrite magnet
Mark Audio Alpair A7P 4in paper cone ferrite magnet
Visaton B80 3.5in paper cone Nd magnet
Visaton FR5 2in paper cone ferrite magnet
My class AB LM386 amp has not arrived yet and the new DAC has not arrived yet so I will proceed with TPA3116D2 amp as before.
I am going to use new test tracks that I am developing right now.
To speed up workflow the 45 second clips will be put onto one long track on the CD player so I can record one long straight track and 5 sound clips will be recorded in one shot.
This is turning out to be a lot of work.
My plan is to have Round 4 as the place for the top 2 from prior rounds to compete. Plus I will add a few drivers that people have requested to be included that did not make the top 2 just for comparison sake. These are that TG9FD be added so TC9FD and 10F/8424 can be compared. Also the A7.3 needs to be compared with the A7P. So I guess A7.3 needs to be added to above list of 7.
And finally, I will add one secret wild card entry of my choice.
Due to the latest batch of drivers that have been generously provided by other members, I will have to do a Round 3 of new drivers before we can go to the final round 4. Folks are interested in 2in full range drivers now and that makes good sense from a FAST implementation. I want to thank all the contributors of the drivers for making this possible. 🙂
The new drivers for Round 3 are:
SB Accoustics SB6WBAC25-4 2.5in aluminum cone Nd magnet
Peerless P830983 2in aluminum cone Nd magnet
Tang Band W3-1364SA 3in bamboo cone Nd magnet
GR Research LGK 3in paper cone ferrite magnet
Mark Audio Alpair A7P 4in paper cone ferrite magnet
Visaton B80 3.5in paper cone Nd magnet
Visaton FR5 2in paper cone ferrite magnet
My class AB LM386 amp has not arrived yet and the new DAC has not arrived yet so I will proceed with TPA3116D2 amp as before.
I am going to use new test tracks that I am developing right now.
To speed up workflow the 45 second clips will be put onto one long track on the CD player so I can record one long straight track and 5 sound clips will be recorded in one shot.
This is turning out to be a lot of work.
My plan is to have Round 4 as the place for the top 2 from prior rounds to compete. Plus I will add a few drivers that people have requested to be included that did not make the top 2 just for comparison sake. These are that TG9FD be added so TC9FD and 10F/8424 can be compared. Also the A7.3 needs to be compared with the A7P. So I guess A7.3 needs to be added to above list of 7.
And finally, I will add one secret wild card entry of my choice.
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