I was hoping they had a plot or PDF somewhere. I think frd files were available but I did not have computer to plot or myself.
You guys might be interested with what is going on over in Multiway forum with a mid driver test.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...nd-testing-need-your-help-33.html#post4391974
There is a TG9FD and 10F/8424 that are doing well over there.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...nd-testing-need-your-help-33.html#post4391974
There is a TG9FD and 10F/8424 that are doing well over there.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And B80 don't.. although it is very similar to that two..
Testing without measurement is completely useless..
Most people have completely wrong views when it comes to sound quality..
That is quite the bold and condescending statement, considering this forum and its participants.
Have you considered that maybe it is you that has completely wrong views when it comes to sound quality? I've been known to change my mind a few times, even when I thought I was dead right about something.
Just trying to keep an open mind here.
I don't see it as right or wrong... I see it as different people have different taste. Whether it is about fashion, taste of food or music listening and appreciation.
Measurement alone is useless (unless you know how to correlate it with listening). But when good ears don't like something, you can always find it's correlation in a measurement.
My guess is that B80 has terrible non-linear distortion at upper frequency (the test was up to around 6k8 Hz), 3rd harmonics or who knows 5th...
The measurements I saw from the B80 were quite decent. Nothing alarming going on there. I like the 10F better on paper but the above statement makes no sense to me.
When do we get to see your system, with measurements? Speaking for myself I'm here to learn, so I'd love to see something real. You comment on just about every speaker out there, I can't, because I haven't heard them all.
I've heard quite a few though. Of which an old Altec home system at my neighbours and an active completely time coherent setup by the name of Mass made the biggest impression on me.
That last one was responsible for my own project. So what about yours?
Edit: not trying to rough your feathers here, I'm serious. Why not share your setup to tell us what works (for you). It might just rub off on us and work for us too you know? What do you look for in a measurement. What type of measurement.
In the mean time here's what I have on the B80:
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There must be a technical reason for every difference in listening perception (even if it is just about taste). Otherwise it is just listening BIAS.
You like 10F better on paper? I think you will be surprised to find out that differences in perceptions can be caused by small differences in technical variables. That's why I have learned that I need to set some kind of thresholds...
We have different motivation. This is my hobby, but I'm ashamed of it. I don't want everybody knows that I'm a maniac with this pathetic hobby 😛
When I posted my stuff, it would be when I decide to go commercial.
Is that from third party or from Visaton? I found that drivers manufacturers tend to hide their products limitation. Those distortion measurements (even when I can see the scale) are hard to interpret.
That's a third party measurement. I have measurements from the same source for 10f, TC9 etc. But I'm not that interested in the B80... just looking to learn I guess.
One could call me a maniac with a pathetic hobby, if you spend a year of your life building a pair of speakers while most people tell you it won't work. But ashamed? No, not me... Seriously crazy? That might be accurate.
One could call me a maniac with a pathetic hobby, if you spend a year of your life building a pair of speakers while most people tell you it won't work. But ashamed? No, not me... Seriously crazy? That might be accurate.
There are too many reasons why I'm not proud of having this hobby 😀 It's not because of one year doing the impossible. One year is nothing.
Anti-social is one thing. If I turn on my best system, I will be submerged to listening to music all day, and my wife will surely complain.
My rooms are small. The only place to put big speakers is at the back area where there is opening to the outside. Three times a security officer came by to bring complaint from a neighbor, was enough for me to stop 😀
20 years ago, 18" Cerwin Vega was sufficient to generate negative comments from those 1km from the house 😱
Last week my wife spoke: "More than half of the house is used to store your stuffs"... 😱
That's a disingenuous excuse to not show even one photo of one of your speakers. You talk about a lot of stuff like you have it and know it but we don't know what your speaker is - not even a description in words anywhere. This hobby and this forum is just as much about sharing as it is being a sponge and occasionally oozing off bits of scattered info. If you were to say that you have such advanced original ideas and implementation that it is secret for intellectual property reasons I would respect that. But don't say it is because you are ashamed of it - because that is not how your affect is when you talk about audio.
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I don't have camera. I don't have Blackberry. I don't have Samsung. I don't have Facebook (and other social media). I don't have DIYA avatar since 2003. I have websites, but nothing about audio. The only pictures I have posted are from google or from print-screen (such as LTSpice or SpeakerWorks files) when I'm using that computer for online.
I don't know why my speakers should be interesting. Did I say that my speaker beat the Magico Q5? 😀
What a lot of stuff? Speakers/drivers? Too many to talk about. Mostly cheap drivers you have never seen (Sinar Baja who manufactures the SBAcoustics has been producing drivers before I got into audio).
Sharing doesn't have to take form of posting pictures.
Simple reason X: anonymity. Hope you respect that 😉
Jay,
It's cool if you want to be anonymous - I do respect that, but I did not say sharing had to just be pictures. Even a written description like "I am building a 4 way with such and such drivers and xyz crossover to be powered by brand z amp, with hopes of having frequency extension from 10Hz to 30kHz and -70dB harmonic distortion at 100dB and 1m!" Etc would suffice. 🙂
It's cool if you want to be anonymous - I do respect that, but I did not say sharing had to just be pictures. Even a written description like "I am building a 4 way with such and such drivers and xyz crossover to be powered by brand z amp, with hopes of having frequency extension from 10Hz to 30kHz and -70dB harmonic distortion at 100dB and 1m!" Etc would suffice. 🙂
X- in the spirit of sharing - any chance we might have a better name to call you? - I mean, depending on how one might pronounce that first letter ... 😀
Like I said, I respect anonymity. You can call me x or xrk or xrk971. 🙂
I think that anyone who reads these forums would say that I don't share enough of my diy audio journey.
I think that anyone who reads these forums would say that I don't share enough of my diy audio journey.
I found this after voting closed, but wanted to do the exercise blind. I listened on sennheiser hd580 headphones.
First listened to AC/DC track on shuffle. All sound different with their own character, but it was hard to choose, nothing terrible or great jumped out. Did serious listening on Nora track on shuffle to split out the ones I obviously didn't like, and the ok ones. After many rounds, narrowed down to top 4. went back to AC /DC and then jazz with the top4. Top 4 are A C D E.
In the end, C dropped down to #4 and it was between A, D & E for me. A&D being on the warmer side, and E being on the more delicate side.
Final order from blind is D, E, A, C.
Now that I know the names I want to pick up the TC9FD18 and/or TG9FD. But the 10f/8424 sounds really great and now helps me realize it might be worth it. I already have the FF105wk. The 830986, 10f/8424 were also already on my want to try list. Nice that my current ff105wk at least made it into the top4 ☺
Thanks for this great exercise!
Here are my notes.
A- not bad,* a little husky, warm, nice even. Stronger bass. Came back to it in the end and realized how even and balanced it is on the Nora track.
AC/DC - sounds good. Maybe not as dynamic as others.* Drums don't have quite the punch of D or E
Jazz- ok,* nice piano, delicate yet dynamic piano. Piano a bit forward in the mix. Bass loses leading edge of attacks and kind of smeared in the background.* not as good/engaging as D or E
C-* not bad,* mellow, a little dark, a tiny hollow. Maybe true to Nora. Balanced bass. Some dynamics. A bit engaging. Little more hiss,* narrow soundstage maybe a phasing issue.
AC/DC sounds good.* Great guitar.
Jazz- good, dynamic, even, first impression, but drifting down as I compare more. Hollow sound comes through. Not as warm even compared to E. Some mids pushed forward.
D- not bad, warm side, piano has undertones, seems more detail than C, but has some hollow feeling too. More prominent bass. Maybe truer to source which is warmer.
AC/DC- good, maybe most foot tapping, maybe closest to original.
Jazz- good feels laid back, warm. grows on me the more I compare. nice piano, bass warm with edges and texture. Foot tapping
E-not bad, piano not shrill, has delicate feeling, very nice dynamics. Bass is lighter but seems to have more texture. I like it but it is lighter, maybe not really true to Nora husky voice.
AC/DC- ok but feels guitars lightweight but drums tight,* voice is fine.
Jazz nice, lighter but also engaging. Beautiful bass texture but less weight. Very nice piano. Delicate and beautiful.
Middle choice
#5 B- voice feels recessed when she sing lower but hiss feels strong, has an echo chamber feeling, has some dynamics. Maybe not so flat.
Jazz pretty good but still hollow feeling.
Something wrong.....
F-voice seems wrong,* piano shrill,* a bit hollow
G-something not right, piano a little shrill, not engaging
H- female voice feels quite hollowed out, not even,* more mids, unnatural but dynamic
Jessica
First listened to AC/DC track on shuffle. All sound different with their own character, but it was hard to choose, nothing terrible or great jumped out. Did serious listening on Nora track on shuffle to split out the ones I obviously didn't like, and the ok ones. After many rounds, narrowed down to top 4. went back to AC /DC and then jazz with the top4. Top 4 are A C D E.
In the end, C dropped down to #4 and it was between A, D & E for me. A&D being on the warmer side, and E being on the more delicate side.
Final order from blind is D, E, A, C.
Now that I know the names I want to pick up the TC9FD18 and/or TG9FD. But the 10f/8424 sounds really great and now helps me realize it might be worth it. I already have the FF105wk. The 830986, 10f/8424 were also already on my want to try list. Nice that my current ff105wk at least made it into the top4 ☺
Thanks for this great exercise!
Here are my notes.
A- not bad,* a little husky, warm, nice even. Stronger bass. Came back to it in the end and realized how even and balanced it is on the Nora track.
AC/DC - sounds good. Maybe not as dynamic as others.* Drums don't have quite the punch of D or E
Jazz- ok,* nice piano, delicate yet dynamic piano. Piano a bit forward in the mix. Bass loses leading edge of attacks and kind of smeared in the background.* not as good/engaging as D or E
C-* not bad,* mellow, a little dark, a tiny hollow. Maybe true to Nora. Balanced bass. Some dynamics. A bit engaging. Little more hiss,* narrow soundstage maybe a phasing issue.
AC/DC sounds good.* Great guitar.
Jazz- good, dynamic, even, first impression, but drifting down as I compare more. Hollow sound comes through. Not as warm even compared to E. Some mids pushed forward.
D- not bad, warm side, piano has undertones, seems more detail than C, but has some hollow feeling too. More prominent bass. Maybe truer to source which is warmer.
AC/DC- good, maybe most foot tapping, maybe closest to original.
Jazz- good feels laid back, warm. grows on me the more I compare. nice piano, bass warm with edges and texture. Foot tapping
E-not bad, piano not shrill, has delicate feeling, very nice dynamics. Bass is lighter but seems to have more texture. I like it but it is lighter, maybe not really true to Nora husky voice.
AC/DC- ok but feels guitars lightweight but drums tight,* voice is fine.
Jazz nice, lighter but also engaging. Beautiful bass texture but less weight. Very nice piano. Delicate and beautiful.
Middle choice
#5 B- voice feels recessed when she sing lower but hiss feels strong, has an echo chamber feeling, has some dynamics. Maybe not so flat.
Jazz pretty good but still hollow feeling.
Something wrong.....
F-voice seems wrong,* piano shrill,* a bit hollow
G-something not right, piano a little shrill, not engaging
H- female voice feels quite hollowed out, not even,* more mids, unnatural but dynamic
Jessica
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Jessica, is that a woman's name? Thanks, I like the way you analyze the sound. Very interesting. BTW, what system (speaker/amp) did you use? You found D was the most "foot tapping" and I found it uninteresting (honestly I only listened to Norah Jones clip where you mentioned about hollow feeling and piano undertone).
I think I have written something like that when Snup asked 🙂
And I have mentioned several times that I have hundreds of amplifiers. Most/all popular/best DIY amps (except PGP and Extrema). Most Japanese amps (Marantz, Sansui, Harman/Kardon, Pioneer, etc). May be no chip amps that I have never heard. Many Pass amps since Zen v1 (but I stop after FirstWatt F6 which uses component I don't have, including J2 and similar using SIT). My own designs (which took a lot of time with little deliverables) and hundreds of output stage transistors waiting for new designs. But for a very long time I have used TDA2030A for daily listening (I prefer LM3875 as a minimum but I don't want to risk my speaker as I don't use speaker protector).
Drivers, I have plenty. I don't do internet order like you. What I do is walk down the road to my friend/neighbor house and purchase anything that interest me. He purchases and sells used audio, so at least every 3 days I come by to see what's new. For big speakers, I usually took the drivers and the crossovers and leave the boxes there for years.
Crossovers, I have digital, analog and of course I have passive parts for design. Coils for example, I have from 0.1mH, 0.2mH, 0.3mH, basically with 0.1mH increments (at least). Capacitors, I have more than the audio shop down the road. Analog crossovers, I have plenty, commercials and DIY, simply because I have hundreds of opamps to utilize (while I actually allergic to opamp sound).
Measurements, I have some tools (and some others at work place). But I don't really depends on them. Too many wasted time using/preparing them and the result (with all the inaccuracies in the measurement) is just "so so", something I can achieve with engineering judgment and ears (or other ways). If I want to sell my stuffs, yes, the tools will be handy to make the stuffs "reputable" in customers' eyes (or may will make it available upon customer's request instead of publishing it).
If you only build one thing in a year, you would think it is cool to share and publish it somewhere. But if you do a lot of things, you wouldn't think so anymore. Especially if you feel that this hobby is a pathetic, useless waste of time 😉
yes I am one of the few women on here, but have been away for awhile. recently wanted to finish a 2way build I started last year (satori + rs28f minidsp) so started hanging out here again.
I have the ff105wk in a small sealed box.
listened to this blind test on a laptop direct audio with hd280 headphones. I know those headphones so well i can use them for very accurate mixing decisions. also have focal cms40+sub studio monitors, stax sr303 headphones, and acoustat 1+1 livingroom system. only used the hd580 for this test since it is so far from reality. like xrk said, like cheese tasting
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Jeshi,
Thanks for your detailed listening impressions! Sounds like you may be an audio professional - like a producer/artist or mixing engineer. In which case, your detailed notes are even more valuable. You mentioned that you have FF105WK's - do you EQ the 7kHz peak out or does that feature not bother you?
Thanks for your detailed listening impressions! Sounds like you may be an audio professional - like a producer/artist or mixing engineer. In which case, your detailed notes are even more valuable. You mentioned that you have FF105WK's - do you EQ the 7kHz peak out or does that feature not bother you?
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