It's hard to define "precision" in situation like this. What kind of precision?? That's the question. The current leader is so different from the rest, positively as well as negatively. What make it worse is that I think it is the loudest of the bunch, while the softest one is probably the most expensive driver with lowest distortion.
In tonality of the piano, which exclude the HF overtones (which is dominated by cymbals anyway), I think my preferred driver is the most precise, or the best combination between precision and...?
@ Jay : I assume you voted for the second red caror you simply like more casual listening than me ? It's possible as the listening has also to see with self biased tastes ! I have to say I have anything against distorsion and color if I find the sound is more enjoyable ! I just listen real instruments to have clearer reference sometimes !
If you want the lowest distortion, you should pick what Wesayso picked. May be it is the lowest in dB level, the opposite of the current leading driver.
The leading driver should be the preference of the majority. Other drivers just like having blanket in front of them. But the response is terrible, at least the HF contents is ridiculous. I think it is suitable for use in noisy environment such as in an open vehicle.
Second leader is a compromise between the leader and the rest. It is the most objective preference imho. But I don't like the compromise. If it were TC7 then TC9 is objectively better.
Remember though, I picked my favourite while listening to TC9's only
. And my final decision/choice was made while listening to the Rock clip .I can't figure out all those votes for the leading red car. To me it sounds broken (sorry) and makes me think of the "Tizz and Boom" type of sound. Just my opinion, it's just not my thing, that particular sound. I favour every other driver in this test above that one.
Mayday... the electrical guitar distorsssssssssssssss ! You had to choose no the leading red car to save your ears...
Allow me to hear a flat leading red car to know if it's better than a P80 or TC7/9 !
ScanSpeak 10F best of two world or also too brilliant too or too flat
You guys have the paper génotype
Ah there is also 3 equality !
! You had to choose no the leading red car to save your ears...Allow me to hear a flat leading red car to know if it's better than a P80 or TC7/9 !
ScanSpeak 10F best of two world or also too brilliant too or too flat
You guys have the paper génotype
Ah there is also 3 equality !
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I know the guitar distorts, but that don't have to make it sound bad you know. I love the distortion knob on my own guitar amp.
If I have to guess I don't think I picked a paper coned driver as my favourite this round...
I look for balance in a driver and there is none of that (for me) in the leading red car.
If I have to guess I don't think I picked a paper coned driver as my favourite this round...
I look for balance in a driver and there is none of that (for me) in the leading red car.
Good! Then I would ask you why you chose this one? No harm intended but me, my self and I thinks it's by far the worst one and really a blaring contrast to others in this round.
Please all others that voted for this one, write your impression, even if that the poll is not closed yet. Never mind if you're right or wrong, time and experience will certainly change opinion and taste.
Personally I listened to a fairly expensive set up last week. I believe it cost +20 000€. Macintosh electronics and Martin Login speakers. My friend was deeply impressed, however I didn't like the blown up voices and size of stage. Every thing else was great, each to his own.....
Peter
X, we should all together try to understand where is the origin of this sibilance on the dynamic peaks to try to avoid it. It will be also a good Learning for everyone on how involve the perf of home reccording.
I find the quality of the reccording impressive in relation to the ref clips... but this sibilance waste the judgement on the speakers and advantage the less detailed speaker with higher dynamic ; I can be wrong but this is my feeling. It will be also a good training to help us to try ourselves to reccord our speakers ?
Have you a description with pjotograph of your reccording setup : how is hold the micro, how is powered the equipments, etc !
You were right about mp3 : when i listen to ref clips, i can't hear the sibilance ! So I'm not sure it's due to mp3; btw it's simple to try with 5 or 10 s of flac to test on one of the good driver if any doubt !
the first feeling I have (but I don't have a clue at all on the real cause) is the mic is saturated on some dynamic peaks, but on a wil frequency range ! I had also this ipression with the round 4, andI maybe choosed a flatest 10F instead of a P80 because of that !... But it could be Something different : powersupplies, A to D process ?
I find the quality of the reccording impressive in relation to the ref clips... but this sibilance waste the judgement on the speakers and advantage the less detailed speaker with higher dynamic ; I can be wrong but this is my feeling. It will be also a good training to help us to try ourselves to reccord our speakers ?
Have you a description with pjotograph of your reccording setup : how is hold the micro, how is powered the equipments, etc !
You were right about mp3 : when i listen to ref clips, i can't hear the sibilance ! So I'm not sure it's due to mp3; btw it's simple to try with 5 or 10 s of flac to test on one of the good driver if any doubt !
the first feeling I have (but I don't have a clue at all on the real cause) is the mic is saturated on some dynamic peaks, but on a wil frequency range ! I had also this ipression with the round 4, andI maybe choosed a flatest 10F instead of a P80 because of that !... But it could be Something different : powersupplies, A to D process ?
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I use a Zoom H4 digital recorder with built in XY mic. I use the supplied cradle which allows it to be mounted to a camera tripod or mic boom. I use a camera tripod. The same cradle holds my measurement mic with some foam to cushion the mic and two velcro straps hold either the Zoom or mic in place. There is a photo in one of the earlier threads. I set the recorder to 96kHz and 24bit raw WAV file record to SD memory card. After recording, I take SD card and copy files to my computer and use Audacity to process the clips. I do the following:
1. trim clip to correct length (45 sec is ~1.78MB 320kbit MP3, max files size on diyAudio is 1.82MB)
2. I take the left mic signal and discard the right since the ref source is mono
3. I turn it into a mono track
4. I set gain so that peak signal is -0.5dB full scale (digital max signal), sometimes I use -1dB, etc but consistent so that I am not clipping.
5. Export track to mp3 at 48kHz and 320kbit/sec
Rename file to .asc to allow upload to diyAudio servers.
Mic is set at 0.50m from speaker to avoid floor bounce (it happens but is after main signal which our ears lock onto).
Before recording, I use the measurement mic and REW to measure frequency response and levels to ensure full range mid/tweet is level matched to woofer and has good integration through cross over region. I match levels from XO out to about 500Hz. Some drivers have rising response beyond and I leave it as is. On rounds 1 and 2, I used to apply baffle step correction of -3dB high shelf from 700Hz on up Q=0.5. This produced a measurably flatter response on some drivers but made others "dull" so I stopped doing that after round 2. I find that not messing with any EQ, even BSC is a more true representation of the driver and I rely on woofer level matching more to achieve the bass balance as the acoustic XO is closer to 500Hz or even 600Hz.
The measured data is overlaid with other drivers to ensure that the response of the bass is consistent and the levels are properly matched. Some drivers though, will be bright no matter what.
Regarding why the recordings can sound "better" than the reference: it may be due to Resonace Enhanced Selective Amplification (RESA). It's my hypothesis and I coined the name RESA and it means that drivers with resonance peaks (break up peaks) will ring and modulate the source signal to generate extra detail (sibilance) that was not there in the source. Sometimes this makes music sound better, to some people. But to be sure, the extra "detail" was not there in the source.
More info on RESA here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ced-selective-amplification-resa-aka-ddr.html
Drivers that may exhibit RESA and seem to be well-liked include: MA Alpair 7.3, Dayton PS95-8, Dayton PA130-8, and based on the measurement, the Alpine Jeep. It usually is prominent with drivers that exhibit multiple (2 or more peaks) in the 5k to 12k region. I find above that, it doesn't affect it as much.
I am not always against drivers with RESA, and indeed I like the sound of both my PS95-8 and PA130-8. However, for extended listening with all genre's, a non ringing driver will work best in the long run (TC9FD, TG9FD, 10F/8424, B80, etc.)
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I don't think it's due to the drivers as I heard this sibilance on all the drivers but B on this round 5 ! It could be at least of course my speakers ! But the ref clips are normal ?!
Am I the only one to hear this ?
Is it the level of the Phantom supply of the mic e.g. ? The distance ? The way on how is hold the mic (close reflexion) ? I don't know, I'm totally a noob ! Just have my ears and believe the hard work and time you spent for us deserves this little set up.
Am I the only one to hear this ?
Is it the level of the Phantom supply of the mic e.g. ? The distance ? The way on how is hold the mic (close reflexion) ? I don't know, I'm totally a noob ! Just have my ears and believe the hard work and time you spent for us deserves this little set up.
There is no phantom power as mics are self contained in Zoom H4.
Same ref clips as previous round (in fact, same CD used that has ref clips were played, same amp, same miniDSP settings, same woofer, same Dagger, same baffle).
Only difference was that I stripped of right channel from Zoom clip and made it mono.
One other difference, I added foam core sheets to the baffle cut to the shape to the driver to allow flush mount to reduce diffraction induced HF rippling. Should sound smoother not more sibillant.
Same ref clips as previous round (in fact, same CD used that has ref clips were played, same amp, same miniDSP settings, same woofer, same Dagger, same baffle).
Only difference was that I stripped of right channel from Zoom clip and made it mono.
One other difference, I added foam core sheets to the baffle cut to the shape to the driver to allow flush mount to reduce diffraction induced HF rippling. Should sound smoother not more sibillant.
It's ok for me to test with different setups if you want, or if you believe it's possible.
I saw above Pete had a listening with an ESL speaker, could be interressant to ask if he hears this sibilance or not with the reccorded speakers ?
So if the ref clip is made with the same device with that you read in the other sense (digital tovards analog), it can't be this device as I hear any sibilance on the ref clips !
Don't know if some reccording engineers read the thread and can help ? It can also be a combination of your reccording + my speakers : combo which enlight some aeras ?
Maybe it's not important after all, I see a certain concistancy in the poll results !
At the end it stays a great work than you offer to us !
PS : Hey maybe Jeshi has now enough box and drivers to make a reccording between the 10F & the TC9 with the same woofer ???
I saw above Pete had a listening with an ESL speaker, could be interressant to ask if he hears this sibilance or not with the reccorded speakers ?
So if the ref clip is made with the same device with that you read in the other sense (digital tovards analog), it can't be this device as I hear any sibilance on the ref clips !
Don't know if some reccording engineers read the thread and can help ? It can also be a combination of your reccording + my speakers : combo which enlight some aeras ?
Maybe it's not important after all, I see a certain concistancy in the poll results !
At the end it stays a great work than you offer to us !
PS : Hey maybe Jeshi has now enough box and drivers to make a reccording between the 10F & the TC9 with the same woofer ???
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An answer to Post #87. I listen to these clips on a 3.1 Logitech computer system. which is very good in my estimation. The "red one" I felt was the best driver I thought on Clip 1. I found the bass was accurate, not overblown or bloated like some of the other speakers. Vocals I thought were the best on the red one also. I find, and it is probably my ears, that the jazz clip, and the bluesy clip sounded much the same on all speakers. I have no analytical equipment yet, and depend on my ears for my enjoyment.
Myles
Myles
Thanks for your thoughts! This with the bass puzzles me, others mentioned this in previous rounds. I have not detected any difference and it shouldn't be one as drivers are crossed at 500Hz. If one is to say lower midrange I agree, but not bass.
Anyway, when I listen for differences, I pretty much block out the bass as the difference should be in higher registers. I realised that lately, when reading some thoughts of difference in bass from Jeshi or 5th element. I was totally unaware of it and was a surprise for me. But I still can't hear any major difference in bass.
Anyway, I don't know anything about your Logitech set up, so no comment about that. What I do believe is that it's easier to detect difference with headphones. Bob Brine says he doesn't like the "middle of head" effect. (with open back headphones, this is not so much of an issue) But this is in my opinion possible to disregard when we're only talking about difference. Which again, is my opinion, one of the purpose of these threads, or isn't it x??
What one chose in the end is personal, but I still think that the red one, is sort of broken and should be sent back for repair
Now if one has the possibility to correct the "bad behaviour" with DSP or traditional filter techniques, that's a totally different story. Maybe there would be another choice for me, but it's far to complex to achieve in home environment with multiple drivers. Further on, why bother with this kind of driver when less work is required with another. But I guess that's what some people want to do and see it as a challenge.
Here's the "dangerous" thing about the last approach. To be honest all you builders here. When one has made a great effort and succeeded to get good sound of an "erroneous" driver, the effort affects ones judgement and make it better than it is. True or not for others, this is what I realised about myself.....
Peter
but I still think that the red one, is sort of broken and should be sent back for repair
You will appreciate it more if you listen to it while driving a truck.
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