portishead.
i was playing this at neighbour annoying levels and was enjoying it so mush i thought id share it with you all.
i did record some gentle bells tinkling which was lovely but it ended in a crescendo which was much louder than this ,which nearly deafened me when listened to on headphones
steve
i was playing this at neighbour annoying levels and was enjoying it so mush i thought id share it with you all.
i did record some gentle bells tinkling which was lovely but it ended in a crescendo which was much louder than this ,which nearly deafened me when listened to on headphones
steve
Ok, bought two of these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074H4S71B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1, I think a couple post back, someone was interested in those or something similar.
Drivin by this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KX6MN91/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
My tv room is about 14' W x 14' L x 12' high ceilings, all bricks, covered with cement plaster. The tv is wall mounted and surrounded with false panels, and cabinets, made of 3/4" pine, edge glued, and and spaced 2 inches from the cement wall.
The area that I attached the drivers to is an L shaped panel, left and right of the tv, about 16 " x 48", 3/4 pine, raised panel, edge glued. The drivers are anchored to the panels with wood U blocks, and wedges to provide for a secure, vibration free, removable mount.
Music sounds very good, and am able to crank up the volume, without noticeable distortion, tv audio on the other hand is an area that needs further attention, depending on the type of programming, some voices are muted, or muffled, and if the volume is raised to a listenable level, no change is detected, adjusting bass/treble seems to have no effect.
I suspect the issue with muffled/ muted voices is due to the length/thickness of the attached panels.
Drivin by this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KX6MN91/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
My tv room is about 14' W x 14' L x 12' high ceilings, all bricks, covered with cement plaster. The tv is wall mounted and surrounded with false panels, and cabinets, made of 3/4" pine, edge glued, and and spaced 2 inches from the cement wall.
The area that I attached the drivers to is an L shaped panel, left and right of the tv, about 16 " x 48", 3/4 pine, raised panel, edge glued. The drivers are anchored to the panels with wood U blocks, and wedges to provide for a secure, vibration free, removable mount.
Music sounds very good, and am able to crank up the volume, without noticeable distortion, tv audio on the other hand is an area that needs further attention, depending on the type of programming, some voices are muted, or muffled, and if the volume is raised to a listenable level, no change is detected, adjusting bass/treble seems to have no effect.
I suspect the issue with muffled/ muted voices is due to the length/thickness of the attached panels.
tried uplaoding images here, resized several times, still would not show up.
here's a link:
speaker2 — Postimages
here's a link:
speaker2 — Postimages
Mexjerry.
Max size of jpeg on this site is 976kb so only poor quality pictures from my kindle ,not my phone, will upload?
Are you saying music from the tv is good or music from elsewhere is good.
IF you are saying poor sound is only coming from the tv outlet ,then that is probably your cause?
I'm a little concerned that you use the words exciter and wedges for a removable mount.
Are you saying that the exciter is jammed up against the panel with wedges and no glue ,for easy removal ?
Steve.
Max size of jpeg on this site is 976kb so only poor quality pictures from my kindle ,not my phone, will upload?
Are you saying music from the tv is good or music from elsewhere is good.
IF you are saying poor sound is only coming from the tv outlet ,then that is probably your cause?
I'm a little concerned that you use the words exciter and wedges for a removable mount.
Are you saying that the exciter is jammed up against the panel with wedges and no glue ,for easy removal ?
Steve.
Sidegrade
So I thought it would be a lot longer before I did anything else with these builds but one of my friends dropped off this busted up Carona beer cooler for me. Ths stuff is dense. I would say this EPS is over 1/4 more dense than what I've been using which seems by ear to correspond exactly in effeciency / dB as I'm using the same "exciters" on near the same panel size (smaller actually). Not only the volume but some crispness as well.
I'm gonna' leave these how they are until I receive some real exciters to test on them . I love the shape of these compared to the "freehand ones prior. I glued the MDF "frame" to the cross spine to have an all around dampening option if needed. My technique is to epoxy the exciter in desired spot to the panel and place the slightly bigger mounting hole in the spine centered over the exciter. I use 1" of the 3/4" thick weatherproofing foam at the cardinal points of the cross super glued top and on "sticky side" of foam to attach frame to panel. Now that they are both "free floating" I wire it to the amp and use an online tone generator through my PC and dial it in to no rattles or buzzing. I use strips of cardboard beween the exciter and spine to hold it snugly but still allowing for manipulation while doing this and simply use a few drops of super glue to fasten it when satisfied as the glue can be "broken" later if you want to remove the exciter.
As I've never used an actual "store bought" exciter yet, all of this fine tuning is probably not as crucial. These small "salvage exciters" that I'm using have to be dialed in very precicely at just the right height and uniformity to the panel or it's a s*** show.
One of the photos is of what I used to thin that thick cooler material down to a more desirable thickness. I made a few iterations out of "scrap"of a hot wire cutter but they didn't work on this super dense stuff to my satisfaction and i ended up with this wire saw doing a really nice job so long as you concentrate on keeping that material as flat on the table as possible under the super tightly strung saw. The results speak for themselves.
So there it is. I like how clean they look using the "back frame" style like this. I have these mounted at an agle off the wall with 4" of clearance at the rears, not ideal but looks great and sounds good being smaller panels and supplemental anyway. I may concave the faces of these with sandpaper from the exciters out, from really thin to existing thickness, maybe a couple of inches or so from the edges to check out what happens. I'm curious if I can regain some of the volume lost with this dense EPS, the less dense stuff's volume was a perfect match with my bookshelfs. I'll let you all know what happens cause' I know I'm gonna' do it, who am I kidding. Hope some of this helps. luego
So I thought it would be a lot longer before I did anything else with these builds but one of my friends dropped off this busted up Carona beer cooler for me. Ths stuff is dense. I would say this EPS is over 1/4 more dense than what I've been using which seems by ear to correspond exactly in effeciency / dB as I'm using the same "exciters" on near the same panel size (smaller actually). Not only the volume but some crispness as well.
I'm gonna' leave these how they are until I receive some real exciters to test on them . I love the shape of these compared to the "freehand ones prior. I glued the MDF "frame" to the cross spine to have an all around dampening option if needed. My technique is to epoxy the exciter in desired spot to the panel and place the slightly bigger mounting hole in the spine centered over the exciter. I use 1" of the 3/4" thick weatherproofing foam at the cardinal points of the cross super glued top and on "sticky side" of foam to attach frame to panel. Now that they are both "free floating" I wire it to the amp and use an online tone generator through my PC and dial it in to no rattles or buzzing. I use strips of cardboard beween the exciter and spine to hold it snugly but still allowing for manipulation while doing this and simply use a few drops of super glue to fasten it when satisfied as the glue can be "broken" later if you want to remove the exciter.
As I've never used an actual "store bought" exciter yet, all of this fine tuning is probably not as crucial. These small "salvage exciters" that I'm using have to be dialed in very precicely at just the right height and uniformity to the panel or it's a s*** show.
One of the photos is of what I used to thin that thick cooler material down to a more desirable thickness. I made a few iterations out of "scrap"of a hot wire cutter but they didn't work on this super dense stuff to my satisfaction and i ended up with this wire saw doing a really nice job so long as you concentrate on keeping that material as flat on the table as possible under the super tightly strung saw. The results speak for themselves.
So there it is. I like how clean they look using the "back frame" style like this. I have these mounted at an agle off the wall with 4" of clearance at the rears, not ideal but looks great and sounds good being smaller panels and supplemental anyway. I may concave the faces of these with sandpaper from the exciters out, from really thin to existing thickness, maybe a couple of inches or so from the edges to check out what happens. I'm curious if I can regain some of the volume lost with this dense EPS, the less dense stuff's volume was a perfect match with my bookshelfs. I'll let you all know what happens cause' I know I'm gonna' do it, who am I kidding. Hope some of this helps. luego
Attachments
Mexjerry.
Sorry for the confusion over the word exciter.
I wasn't querying that at all. It is a perfectly correct term.
What I was trying to ask was ,are you saying you use a wedge to press the exciter hard up against the panel ,so you don't have to use glue?
This is for easy removal?
Sorry once again for the miss understanding.
Steve.
Sorry for the confusion over the word exciter.
I wasn't querying that at all. It is a perfectly correct term.
What I was trying to ask was ,are you saying you use a wedge to press the exciter hard up against the panel ,so you don't have to use glue?
This is for easy removal?
Sorry once again for the miss understanding.
Steve.
It's interesting how so many approaches (including mine at the moment, although I initially planned to have it not like this) have the exciters "floating" off the back of the panel. On one hand, it'd be tough to rigidly attach the exciter and also suspend the panel at just the point. On the other hand, the exciter is then also pushing back into nothing and not all the force is going into the material. Plus I bet to some extent the magnet's inertia is damping the action. This is of course assuming the panel can structurally support the exciter(s) on its own in the first place.
Intuitively, I'd think that a wedge would push too much against the material but I don't really know how that might affect the sound.
---
Haven't had a chance to carve out a cone shape per spedge's suggestion and approach but I did try a few more experiments with the xps (at least applicable to my xps)
- adding a 1/16" wood panel between the xps and exciters gets rid of almost all of the hollow sound but still doesn't have great transient response. More efficient than the plywood panel but obviously quieter than xps alone.
- adding a 1/32" lexan square between the xps and exciters is noticeably louder than the plywood with the xps but still not close to the xps itself. A bit sharper and a bit less warm compared to the plywood. This is my favorite configuration so far but the transient response still isn't great.
- flipping the xps around, so the curved side had the exciters mounted to the flat center section, didn't improve the quality and may have been a bit worse? hard to tell.
Any tricks to improving the transient with xps? Tried a few other things but nothing worth mentioning. Definitely still missing some higher end so I'll try the cone this weekend; maybe it'll even help with the panel's snappiness. Some music sounded great but anything more complicated, especially I noticed with some jazz, metal, and electronic, just got very muddy very quick. Still super fun to play around with though!
Intuitively, I'd think that a wedge would push too much against the material but I don't really know how that might affect the sound.
---
Haven't had a chance to carve out a cone shape per spedge's suggestion and approach but I did try a few more experiments with the xps (at least applicable to my xps
)- adding a 1/16" wood panel between the xps and exciters gets rid of almost all of the hollow sound but still doesn't have great transient response. More efficient than the plywood panel but obviously quieter than xps alone.
- adding a 1/32" lexan square between the xps and exciters is noticeably louder than the plywood with the xps but still not close to the xps itself. A bit sharper and a bit less warm compared to the plywood. This is my favorite configuration so far but the transient response still isn't great.
- flipping the xps around, so the curved side had the exciters mounted to the flat center section, didn't improve the quality and may have been a bit worse? hard to tell.
Any tricks to improving the transient with xps? Tried a few other things but nothing worth mentioning. Definitely still missing some higher end so I'll try the cone this weekend; maybe it'll even help with the panel's snappiness. Some music sounded great but anything more complicated, especially I noticed with some jazz, metal, and electronic, just got very muddy very quick. Still super fun to play around with though!
Quot.
Intuitively, I'd think that a wedge would push too much against the material but I don't really know how that might affect the sound.
---
It's the fact that the exciter coil and metal springs are being jammed hard up to the end stops,which will not be good for the exciter ,let alone the sound.
Maybe drilling a few holes in the disk and screwing to the panel with small screws, might be a better option,still easily removable?
The tough metal springs are designed for self supporting.
Steve.
Intuitively, I'd think that a wedge would push too much against the material but I don't really know how that might affect the sound.
---
It's the fact that the exciter coil and metal springs are being jammed hard up to the end stops,which will not be good for the exciter ,let alone the sound.
Maybe drilling a few holes in the disk and screwing to the panel with small screws, might be a better option,still easily removable?
The tough metal springs are designed for self supporting.
Steve.
habeeb....."- adding a 1/16" wood panel between the xps and exciters gets rid of almost all of the hollow sound but still doesn't have great transient response. More efficient than the plywood panel but obviously quieter than xps alone."
You could try cutting a hole in the XPS just a little larger than the exciter, mount the preferred panel on the front of the XPS and attach the exciter through the hole to the panel from the back. I did this with a canvas build and it made the sound a lot cleaner. Worth a shot.
You could try cutting a hole in the XPS just a little larger than the exciter, mount the preferred panel on the front of the XPS and attach the exciter through the hole to the panel from the back. I did this with a canvas build and it made the sound a lot cleaner. Worth a shot.
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This looks perfect for an exciter ;-)
iconic 1957 aston martin DBR2 gets futuristic remake with lightweight carbon fiber body
So where do we get "aerogel insulation"?
At the NASA store?
Hmmm... plexiglass wind screen too, lots of possibilities.
iconic 1957 aston martin DBR2 gets futuristic remake with lightweight carbon fiber body
So where do we get "aerogel insulation"?
At the NASA store?
Hmmm... plexiglass wind screen too, lots of possibilities.
Attachments
I've been listening to the portishead recordings ,the original wav on my phone and the converted mp4 version downloaded from this site.
I'm afraid the downloaded version is only a shadow of the original, you loose all of the depth and detail,and becomes murky and a bit mushy.
Don't get me wrong,the downloaded still sounds good and gives a good impression of what to expect from a panel speaker,but it does loose all the spacial intimacy ,detail and clarity which the panels excel at.
With the original wav you are there in the mix with the audience.
With the mp4 download ,you are just listening to music,and less involved.
This I think is something to take into consideration when listening to downloads on this site.
Sort of a worst case scenario.
Steve.
I'm afraid the downloaded version is only a shadow of the original, you loose all of the depth and detail,and becomes murky and a bit mushy.
Don't get me wrong,the downloaded still sounds good and gives a good impression of what to expect from a panel speaker,but it does loose all the spacial intimacy ,detail and clarity which the panels excel at.
With the original wav you are there in the mix with the audience.
With the mp4 download ,you are just listening to music,and less involved.
This I think is something to take into consideration when listening to downloads on this site.
Sort of a worst case scenario.
Steve.
Spedge,
I know you have a lot of high-quality equipment. If you had to choose to listen to only: 1. the canvas speakers; 2. the canvas and 1 set of stereo subs; 3. 1 set of your box speakers of your choice; 4. a blend of the canvas, and the boxes: or 5. the canvas, the subs, and the boxes, which would you listen to, and why? You can add 1 more set of canvas speakers, and/or increase their size. Use only 1 stereo sub for this question, and don't use high frequency response in your answer, please. My exciters are on their way, finally(!), and I have put a thin coat of 1:2 acrylic paint on a pair of 12x16" canvas panels in anticipation. Do you think that was a good idea, or should I have used thinned pva? I have 4 more panels. At $2.13 each, it is no big deal either way.
I know you have a lot of high-quality equipment. If you had to choose to listen to only: 1. the canvas speakers; 2. the canvas and 1 set of stereo subs; 3. 1 set of your box speakers of your choice; 4. a blend of the canvas, and the boxes: or 5. the canvas, the subs, and the boxes, which would you listen to, and why? You can add 1 more set of canvas speakers, and/or increase their size. Use only 1 stereo sub for this question, and don't use high frequency response in your answer, please. My exciters are on their way, finally(!), and I have put a thin coat of 1:2 acrylic paint on a pair of 12x16" canvas panels in anticipation. Do you think that was a good idea, or should I have used thinned pva? I have 4 more panels. At $2.13 each, it is no big deal either way.
Jaxboy.
Without getting too technical,the canvas panel is a good all rounder,even in the HF response(oooops)
On most acoustic and vocal music the sub would not be needed,turning it on and off makes little difference ,even with my TLS.
But when an extra bit of low down grunt is needed on electronic music or heavy bass music,it's nice to have it there.
I'd be careful about some so called subs that roll off at something like 30hz ,only 10hz lower than my canvas panel.
So number 1 would be my preference,but I would want a bit of flexibility.
If I was starting from scratch and wanted to keep the price down, I'd use a amp with tone controls,use this to run the panels full range but with the choice of turning down the low frequencies if needed( in case of excessive movements).
The use of a dedicated sub with at least a usable frequency of up to 120hz would be handy
I'd also rather have stereo low frequency driver that covered the low end and also the lower midrange say up to 500hz but good quality sounding of course, in case needed.
This would obviously need another amp and xo to help blend the low frequency unit in with the panels to sort out any room response problems that might ruin the sound,which is always possible.
There are many ways to go about this,even a 2 point 1 amp would work for starters and maybe be all that is needed.
But I would make sure that whatever sub or low frequency driver is used,is up to the job.
You'll be surprised how much you have to turn them up to match the panels.
As for painting the panels in acrylic,if it did what you wanted it to do ,then fine.
Did it shrink the canvas panel as expected?
Not sure about how strong acrylic is or what glue is best to use with it, others might help here?
Hope this is of some use to you?
Steve.
Without getting too technical,the canvas panel is a good all rounder,even in the HF response(oooops)
On most acoustic and vocal music the sub would not be needed,turning it on and off makes little difference ,even with my TLS.
But when an extra bit of low down grunt is needed on electronic music or heavy bass music,it's nice to have it there.
I'd be careful about some so called subs that roll off at something like 30hz ,only 10hz lower than my canvas panel.
So number 1 would be my preference,but I would want a bit of flexibility.
If I was starting from scratch and wanted to keep the price down, I'd use a amp with tone controls,use this to run the panels full range but with the choice of turning down the low frequencies if needed( in case of excessive movements).
The use of a dedicated sub with at least a usable frequency of up to 120hz would be handy
I'd also rather have stereo low frequency driver that covered the low end and also the lower midrange say up to 500hz but good quality sounding of course, in case needed.
This would obviously need another amp and xo to help blend the low frequency unit in with the panels to sort out any room response problems that might ruin the sound,which is always possible.
There are many ways to go about this,even a 2 point 1 amp would work for starters and maybe be all that is needed.
But I would make sure that whatever sub or low frequency driver is used,is up to the job.
You'll be surprised how much you have to turn them up to match the panels.
As for painting the panels in acrylic,if it did what you wanted it to do ,then fine.
Did it shrink the canvas panel as expected?
Not sure about how strong acrylic is or what glue is best to use with it, others might help here?
Hope this is of some use to you?
Steve.
Spedge,
Perfect! Thanks so much for the answer. That's what I was hoping you would say. I haven't received the exciters yet, so don't know what my panels will sound like, but expect them to sound pretty much like yours. The acrylic paint was from Walmart, and was cut 2 or 3:1 with water, and was made just thick enough to solidly color the panel with a wide artist in one brushing. I cut a piece of canvas to experiment on. I put them on a radiator to dry, so they are nice and taut. They have a nice drum sound to them. The sub is powered, but I still am running it with a 80watt stereo/100watt sub 2.1 amp, so it will have plenty of power, and the signal is run through an equalizer first in the computer.
Perfect! Thanks so much for the answer. That's what I was hoping you would say. I haven't received the exciters yet, so don't know what my panels will sound like, but expect them to sound pretty much like yours. The acrylic paint was from Walmart, and was cut 2 or 3:1 with water, and was made just thick enough to solidly color the panel with a wide artist in one brushing. I cut a piece of canvas to experiment on. I put them on a radiator to dry, so they are nice and taut. They have a nice drum sound to them. The sub is powered, but I still am running it with a 80watt stereo/100watt sub 2.1 amp, so it will have plenty of power, and the signal is run through an equalizer first in the computer.
jaxboy.
The main sound above say 600hz will be dictated by the ply panel,depending on ply type ,size and thickness and weight,below this is the canvas ,tension and size.
As you say there should be a similar sound to my canvas art panels and to ply panels in general.
The unknown is the canvas part,is the tension right is the size right,is there going to be any buzzing?
I had the panel in the centre of the canvas but I had the exciter offset on the ply,but this was only because the ply panel was an old stand alone test panel I had lying around.
I would be tempted to place the ply and exciter in the central positions to try and keep the balance correct and also use a spine to prevent exciter wobble.
You could do 2 panels one with the offset and one without and compare the two.
Normally I'm not keen on centrally mounting an exciter to ply or any other material come to that ,but this ply panel is pretty well damped by the canvas plus coating, and the stretched canvas could act as a lossy extension to the ply ,maybe ?
Sorry to send you off into the unknown.
But that's the fun part
Steve.
The main sound above say 600hz will be dictated by the ply panel,depending on ply type ,size and thickness and weight,below this is the canvas ,tension and size.
As you say there should be a similar sound to my canvas art panels and to ply panels in general.
The unknown is the canvas part,is the tension right is the size right,is there going to be any buzzing?
I had the panel in the centre of the canvas but I had the exciter offset on the ply,but this was only because the ply panel was an old stand alone test panel I had lying around.
I would be tempted to place the ply and exciter in the central positions to try and keep the balance correct and also use a spine to prevent exciter wobble.
You could do 2 panels one with the offset and one without and compare the two.
Normally I'm not keen on centrally mounting an exciter to ply or any other material come to that ,but this ply panel is pretty well damped by the canvas plus coating, and the stretched canvas could act as a lossy extension to the ply ,maybe ?
Sorry to send you off into the unknown.
But that's the fun part
Steve.
Spedge,
I was holding off writing because the exciters were supposed to come today, but no such luck! It's been since April 30 that I ordered them. I was notified Monday that they had come in. What a long wait, and it will be at least Monday before I can get them! Oh, well. I will let you know what comes of the adventure when they do finally come in. I will probably let them cook a while first, unless they just sound outstanding from the get-go.
I was holding off writing because the exciters were supposed to come today, but no such luck! It's been since April 30 that I ordered them. I was notified Monday that they had come in. What a long wait, and it will be at least Monday before I can get them! Oh, well. I will let you know what comes of the adventure when they do finally come in. I will probably let them cook a while first, unless they just sound outstanding from the get-go.