Those little K's look great, Freddi! 
I was thinking of using the Klam for replacing my Tractrix horns for midrange duty. But not having heard them before, I was unsure it would work. (nevertheless, I've made foam core version klam for a 2 inch driver for fun, and it sounds great...)
And then I see that you are considering scaled K-15's for midrange.
So I'm curious as to how would the two compare?
Or maybe even comparisons with the Karlsonator?(for using as substitute for midrange horn)
Thanks,
Steve.
I was thinking of using the Klam for replacing my Tractrix horns for midrange duty. But not having heard them before, I was unsure it would work. (nevertheless, I've made foam core version klam for a 2 inch driver for fun, and it sounds great...)
And then I see that you are considering scaled K-15's for midrange.
So I'm curious as to how would the two compare?
Or maybe even comparisons with the Karlsonator?(for using as substitute for midrange horn)
Thanks,
Steve.
it probably would be good to try several different klam for a given driver - listen, measure - rear chambers are typically small - I'd like for XRK971 to try a klam for his PRV wideband (or other fullrange) and see what he thinks can be adjusted via coupler angle and aperture. Perhaps he would be intrigued enough to experiment.
Regular Karlson can have very nice midrange - wrong speaker and its not so good - the little K10 is hope to get a front horn kick (or better) in a small package and a tribute to K15 - we'll see
assuming you have some compression drivers, try a K-tube - even a quick rolled paper tube taped to the compression driver as proof of concept. Translyvania's one inch format K-tube was ~5.3" long and tapered a bit towards its tip. A straight 1"ID cross section tube the same length would suffice - one care snip of the scissors and you may have a good half ellipse based slot. I would not run a little K-tube below ~1K2 even with a steep slope. Elevate the tube a bit (assuming the slot is facing "down")
the K-tube can be used in a klam to extend a coaxial's tweeter - my recent klam 12 sounds pretty good with just a standard Eminence coax (well - cast frame and 80oz magnet monitor type)
GB's Karlsonator is a really cool idea
Regular Karlson can have very nice midrange - wrong speaker and its not so good - the little K10 is hope to get a front horn kick (or better) in a small package and a tribute to K15 - we'll see
assuming you have some compression drivers, try a K-tube - even a quick rolled paper tube taped to the compression driver as proof of concept. Translyvania's one inch format K-tube was ~5.3" long and tapered a bit towards its tip. A straight 1"ID cross section tube the same length would suffice - one care snip of the scissors and you may have a good half ellipse based slot. I would not run a little K-tube below ~1K2 even with a steep slope. Elevate the tube a bit (assuming the slot is facing "down")
the K-tube can be used in a klam to extend a coaxial's tweeter - my recent klam 12 sounds pretty good with just a standard Eminence coax (well - cast frame and 80oz magnet monitor type)
GB's Karlsonator is a really cool idea
I haven't tried a Klam yet, and not sure what it would do for the PRV 5MR450NDY which has a high fs of 170Hz. You can't get bass so are we looking at improving polar directivity? The 5MR450NDY sounds very good in a Nautaloss and a tractrix FLH.
If I were to make one, and I agree they are simple to build, how should I scale of or design it? Based on driver bezel width to fit? What is the best drawing of a Klam to start from?
If I were to make one, and I agree they are simple to build, how should I scale of or design it? Based on driver bezel width to fit? What is the best drawing of a Klam to start from?
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FWIW I ran my K-tube with a 3rd order highpass (acoustically) at 1K2, and had no problems at all. It in fact sounded effortless, uncolored and excellent. My K-tube was 6.5" long with an elliptical slot on 5.5" of it, and 1" un-slotted. I did this to provide a minimum of plane wave tube loading for the comp driver (Emin PSD2002).
AFA K-midrange setups, the best two I've heard have been: K15 with a 15" and the above K-tube, and K15 with vintage EV coaxials.
Never tried a Klam, other than some half-assed mini versions. Some mid sized K-tube I attempted were horrid and quickly trashed. I can tell you that getting good mid range from a 'mid' sized K type box is rather difficult.
The Karlsonator's strong points are good bass and a big effortless sound in a small box. The upper mids are perhaps slightly more colored than direct radiating. There's always a price.
Of course a midhorn will color slightly also. Anyhow, a Karlsonator or Klam for that matter would only make sense to me as a 'mid' if you needed a very low crossover point to the bass box: for example 100 to 150Hz. An equivalent front horn would be much larger.
fwiw, I generally prefer a K-tube to horn but have not experimented with shorter tubes for helper tweeters. The vertical pattern is very high so blends well with the larger couplers. Users of multiway should try the K-tube and they do make nice helper tweeters for single drivers. For example, here's a clone of a 1960's Karlson X15 K-tube helping a Pioneer B20 BOFU in a "K10" sized K-coupler.
a K-tube can be used on a coaxial - here's an extended tube crammed down the mouth of an Eminence 15" coax horn
here's what I call a "standard" K-tube - a piece of 1" pvc pipe about 5.5" long with a half-ellipse slot. This is the way it would be used
on little coax with a dome tweeter up front
these gift brass tubes are good too
Here's the old K8 size by Carl Neuser from ~ late 1955 built as an "X8" with a standard 1-inch format K-tube. Karlson's X15 two way system
from 1965 was the first commercial K-coupler with an internal high frequency K for a tweeter.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
a K-tube can be used on a coaxial - here's an extended tube crammed down the mouth of an Eminence 15" coax horn
here's what I call a "standard" K-tube - a piece of 1" pvc pipe about 5.5" long with a half-ellipse slot. This is the way it would be used
on little coax with a dome tweeter up front
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
these gift brass tubes are good too
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's the old K8 size by Carl Neuser from ~ late 1955 built as an "X8" with a standard 1-inch format K-tube. Karlson's X15 two way system
from 1965 was the first commercial K-coupler with an internal high frequency K for a tweeter.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Mini K-tube seems to work well for a supertweeter with more omni-like presentation than a horn supertweeter. It would be perfect for surrounds in an HT system.
Yeah, K-tubes great for midrange, but they are limited to the upper mids compared to say a 250Hz trax horn. The presentation is very different from a horn. It reminded me of the old fried egg dome midrange, but with better detail and dynamics. A 1" ID K-tube might be usable down to 1kHz if slightly enlarged lengthwise and crossed 4th order.
Yeah, K-tubes great for midrange, but they are limited to the upper mids compared to say a 250Hz trax horn. The presentation is very different from a horn. It reminded me of the old fried egg dome midrange, but with better detail and dynamics. A 1" ID K-tube might be usable down to 1kHz if slightly enlarged lengthwise and crossed 4th order.
a BMS 4550 should hold 1K well - I've run 806 down low and 1st order. I would say despite a directivity mismatch at the xover point with large woofers, that a K-tube often sounds more "natural" and less "canned" than a CD waveguide - the K-tube is nice off axis. There ought to be a way to modify a cheap piezo such as GRS 1016 with a 1016 GW plase plug and drive a tube for a helper tweeter. Have any readers here mucked with the GRS 1005 piezo?
I use the K-tube on everything...
At the apex of my synergy horn, a foamcore 'smithagrain' paraline, on top of hypercubes, and tweeter for desktop cardioid rig.
And also 2 inch ID tube with 3 inch fullrange for midrange, and the 2 inch foamcore mini Klam...
(as you can see, I find this K-technology fascinating... wonder why more people aren't using Karlsons?)
Ultra noob here, and I'm probably doing something wrong most of the time,
but this DIY thing is supposed to be fun... and I'm having a great time.
Thanks to you guys!
At the apex of my synergy horn, a foamcore 'smithagrain' paraline, on top of hypercubes, and tweeter for desktop cardioid rig.
And also 2 inch ID tube with 3 inch fullrange for midrange, and the 2 inch foamcore mini Klam...
(as you can see, I find this K-technology fascinating...
wonder why more people aren't using Karlsons?)Ultra noob here, and I'm probably doing something wrong most of the time,
but this DIY thing is supposed to be fun... and I'm having a great time.
Thanks to you guys!
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that is a fabulous K-tech exhibition ! - what are you using for drivers with the short/fat tube and the tube below? -- - also - what's happening with the relatively tiny tube in the middle of the rectangular Synergy horn? is there a dynamic compression driver or did you get a piezo driver to work well?
people are addicted to fairy tales of flush mounted direct radiator superiority - music reproduction is a somewhat artificial construct at best. I've used K-tubes for about 15 years. The X15 system is one proper way to do things.
people are addicted to fairy tales of flush mounted direct radiator superiority - music reproduction is a somewhat artificial construct at best. I've used K-tubes for about 15 years. The X15 system is one proper way to do things.
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Thanks for the replies.
So between the Klam and mini K-15, which one do you think has the better
midrange?
Or the potential for a competent replacement for a midrange horn?
- Is it just a matter of preference, or more due to the difference between the designs? (one is a projector for PA, one is for domestic use...)
And if the K-15 is preferred over the Klam for it's bass extension capability in the mids compared to the Klam, then what do you think of using something like a mini Metro T-15(maybe scaled down to accept 8 or maybe even a 6.5 incher) instead?
(Is it even possible?)
So between the Klam and mini K-15, which one do you think has the better
midrange?
Or the potential for a competent replacement for a midrange horn?
- Is it just a matter of preference, or more due to the difference between the designs? (one is a projector for PA, one is for domestic use...)
And if the K-15 is preferred over the Klam for it's bass extension capability in the mids compared to the Klam, then what do you think of using something like a mini Metro T-15(maybe scaled down to accept 8 or maybe even a 6.5 incher) instead?
(Is it even possible?
)
Thanks!
The drivers are just normal tweeters I had around the house.
I'm using all sorts of tweets I can get my hands on.
I'm just having fun before I get me some proper compression drivers.
(The ones in the synergy horn are tweets I got out of my Klipsch Promedia speakers)
I'm interested in the X-15 system as well, but there seems to be little
information/users comments regarding it... (how would it compare to a
similar size K-15, etc...)
And some pics I forgot to upload on the last post...
My first attempt at K-tube synergy horn...
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I'd think the Metro could be scaled perhaps down to a 10" - one thing not totally verified in T15 is how the vent was done. The late Gregg Baker ended up using a 3" diameter port tube while Metro's sketch indicated a large cross section rectangular vent.
I think a regular K may exhibit wider horizontal coverage than a klam. My recent klam12 made so well by TheJessMan has a nice sound and is much clearer than some 8" fullrange. That said, it may have some sound of its own as do most speaker types -I've not felt well so not played with it more than a few minutes.
you could make some foam core mini - Karlson - play with the upper reflector and compare to the klam type.
I'm picking the K10 size as think its about the smallest regular K which will have the punch of a larger front loaded midbass horn. Karlson's K12 with a K-tube on top sounds "better" to me than my fake La Scala using a Peavey FH1, Klipsch K55V on Altec 511 and Eminence APT150 tweeter.
Aspect seems to have impact with regular Karlson type - a Tangbang in a 28" by 13.5"x12" K-coupler had 2-5dB less output in the 110-220Hz octave than the same driver in a regular K12.
I can't give a definitive answer on klam vs regular Karlson as I and "we" aren't finished with our investigations.
I think a regular K may exhibit wider horizontal coverage than a klam. My recent klam12 made so well by TheJessMan has a nice sound and is much clearer than some 8" fullrange. That said, it may have some sound of its own as do most speaker types -I've not felt well so not played with it more than a few minutes.
you could make some foam core mini - Karlson - play with the upper reflector and compare to the klam type.
I'm picking the K10 size as think its about the smallest regular K which will have the punch of a larger front loaded midbass horn. Karlson's K12 with a K-tube on top sounds "better" to me than my fake La Scala using a Peavey FH1, Klipsch K55V on Altec 511 and Eminence APT150 tweeter.
Aspect seems to have impact with regular Karlson type - a Tangbang in a 28" by 13.5"x12" K-coupler had 2-5dB less output in the 110-220Hz octave than the same driver in a regular K12.
I can't give a definitive answer on klam vs regular Karlson as I and "we" aren't finished with our investigations.
Karlson's X15 speaker essentially was like a K12 in bass extension and had around 2 cubic feet for the rear chamber and 1 cubic foot for the front chamber. It had a three panel upper reflector and featured a CTS 41Hz fs woofer plus University compression driver. A K15 size coupler could be built with an internal K-tube. I did a little writeup on the X15 in 2003 but assume the photo links are now gone.
X15 and K12 with ~100dB sensitive woofers would both have a half space low frequency rolloff below 80Hz - the 15" speaker probably would have less cone excursion. A K12 with something like a Kappa12 would be pretty punchy at 250 watt input peaks and not exceed 6mm peak to peak on drum beats.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/5/51721.html
X15 and K12 with ~100dB sensitive woofers would both have a half space low frequency rolloff below 80Hz - the 15" speaker probably would have less cone excursion. A K12 with something like a Kappa12 would be pretty punchy at 250 watt input peaks and not exceed 6mm peak to peak on drum beats.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/5/51721.html
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Thanks!
The drivers are just normal tweeters I had around the house.
I'm using all sorts of tweets I can get my hands on.
I'm just having fun before I get me some proper compression drivers.
(The ones in the synergy horn are tweets I got out of my Klipsch Promedia speakers)
I'm interested in the X-15 system as well, but there seems to be little
information/users comments regarding it... (how would it compare to a
similar size K-15, etc...)
And some pics I forgot to upload on the last post...
My first attempt at K-tube synergy horn...
Bolexsbm,
Very cool with the K tube synergy. How does it sound? Are you using active XO or passives?
here's one of Carl's high aspect 8 inch K-coupler testboxes - a tube with compression driver could be mounted on/in GregB's Karlsonator in the stub section above the woofer. Carl said he used laminations of maple veneer for this tube to make it relatively inert
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I wonder if Metro's T15 uses the rectangular cross-section vent suggested in their sketch? - its a nice response and think it would work with my B&C 15s
can we have an effective "T12"? - that might make a nice helper woofer for some small K and Karlsnator
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
can we have an effective "T12"? - that might make a nice helper woofer for some small K and Karlsnator
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I modeled the T15 about a year and a half ago - look back in this thread and you may see some posts. In looking at if now, I could probably simplify it to a 6th order band pass alignment sans TL or K-Aperture and get pretty close. This alignment is typified with wide bandwidth if the front aperture is large and extreme cone control for a small front chamber. You are looking for a 12in variant or a "T-12"? Which driver do you have in mind? A driver with low Qts High Bl factor and fs below 40Hz should work.
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I have that cheap 55-1465 DVC MCM woofer - will T15 sim well enough in hornresp?
if it can do better with a non-K aperture then say
here's the late Marshall Leach's measurements for 55-1465 - my sample is real close
Voice Coil Resistance RE = 6.47 ohms per coil
Resonance Frequency fS = 28.1 Hz
Total Quality Factor QTS = 0.326
Electrical Quality Factor QES = 0.374
Mechanical Quality Factor QMS = 2.52
Volume Compliance VAS = 4.80 cubic feet
Q's on mine
Re= 3.057, fs = 26.92Hz, qes = 0.3568, qms= 3.208. qts = 0.3209 and Le = 0.8907mH
here's Karlson and Jess Oliver introducing the PhaseIII projector (which was Karlson's APX model) - it had
a heavy duty 10 inch alnico guitar speaker
if it can do better with a non-K aperture then say
here's the late Marshall Leach's measurements for 55-1465 - my sample is real close
Voice Coil Resistance RE = 6.47 ohms per coil
Resonance Frequency fS = 28.1 Hz
Total Quality Factor QTS = 0.326
Electrical Quality Factor QES = 0.374
Mechanical Quality Factor QMS = 2.52
Volume Compliance VAS = 4.80 cubic feet
Q's on mine
Re= 3.057, fs = 26.92Hz, qes = 0.3568, qms= 3.208. qts = 0.3209 and Le = 0.8907mH
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
here's Karlson and Jess Oliver introducing the PhaseIII projector (which was Karlson's APX model) - it had
a heavy duty 10 inch alnico guitar speaker
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Well, I know this is a fullrange forum, and also a Karlson thread, but since it's about the K-tube...
The K-tube synergy was just a test. I wanted to see how much bandwidth I could get out with a enclosure the size of a hot chocolate can(!).
At the tube's end(or apex?) I mounted a tweeter from a Klipsch igroove.
And for the midrange, I stuck four 1 inch cone tweeters with sealed backs(tip from Patrick Bateman - he used Goldwood tweeters as mids with success) around the tube.
The 2 inch woofers were from igroove also, and I managed to attach two on the pipe.
I'm using two 2-way stereo/3 way mono active XO's for now.
(Trying to choose between MiniDSP and Beringer 2496...
) As for the sound, it wasn't bad down to maybe 5-600hz.
But I felt I needed a bigger woofer for more bass, and there was no way I could make big woofers fit onto the pipe.
First of all, the bandpass holes won't be big enough, and secondly, the units won't fit into the can.
But from the 'Square Pegs' thread, I learned that the big wavelengths can't form where there is no adequate space to form, so I wonder whether the K-tube synergy concept will work down to maybe 150~100hz if one figures out how to get big woofers on the tube.
As for the next step, I'm thinking a 'pipe in a pipe' concept. The inner pipe will be for the tweeter, and the outer pipe(or maybe a Klam) will take care of the mids and the woofs.
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