Wow that's some dedication all posters here are masters of the finishing art.
I just ask the question:
1) What is the acceptance standard for say a BMW car factory paint job? Well I believe it's an inspection, normal to the surface, from 1.5 metres, under a specified intensity of light, when orange peel should not be visible. Probably more detailed than that but you get the idea. Actually this allows a pass for a surprising amount of orange peel & I have seen examples of this on new BMW's as well as perfect examples.
2) What is the standard for commercial product equivalents? Well it's a bit difficult to think of many equivalents. TVs are plastic mouldings, refrigerators are pre-finished to an exceptionally high standard & many speaker cabinets are PVC wrapped.
My comment is that lesser standards of finish are perfectly acceptable & I have seen one off "spray jobs" on boats (about as hard as it gets on big outdoor hulls) easily pass an inspection at about one metre. So with care a spay finish (without further finishing) should be OK given that the underlying surface is properly prepared.
I just ask the question:
1) What is the acceptance standard for say a BMW car factory paint job? Well I believe it's an inspection, normal to the surface, from 1.5 metres, under a specified intensity of light, when orange peel should not be visible. Probably more detailed than that but you get the idea. Actually this allows a pass for a surprising amount of orange peel & I have seen examples of this on new BMW's as well as perfect examples.
2) What is the standard for commercial product equivalents? Well it's a bit difficult to think of many equivalents. TVs are plastic mouldings, refrigerators are pre-finished to an exceptionally high standard & many speaker cabinets are PVC wrapped.
My comment is that lesser standards of finish are perfectly acceptable & I have seen one off "spray jobs" on boats (about as hard as it gets on big outdoor hulls) easily pass an inspection at about one metre. So with care a spay finish (without further finishing) should be OK given that the underlying surface is properly prepared.
IMHO, "orange peel" is a side effect which is easily avoided in professional paint jobs, simply by a) diluting the paint to a sufficient extent, b) choosing a high quality paint that flows perfectly, c) respecting strictly time periods between layers, d) obeying the layer thickness. They also have perfectly clean spray chambers with air filters, making sure no particles fall on the treated surface. What you sometimes see on the cars, is actually underlying metal texture.
I have much more issues with dust and particles than with "orange peel" effect. Even I don't produce any marks on the paint surface any more, regardless of the method used: brush, roller or spray can.
I have much more issues with dust and particles than with "orange peel" effect. Even I don't produce any marks on the paint surface any more, regardless of the method used: brush, roller or spray can.
zdr,
Yes its possible metal processing will cause marks, but I doubt BMW's show this, & I think the orange peel I mentioned is rare. It may now even be totally eliminated.
Regarding spray finishes; I guess I agree, although I think it's not a easy as you allow it to sound.
But if you can roll or brush finish without any marks or defects except dust then you are a bloody marvel & I'd pay to see you do it.
I've been doing this on a hobby basis for 40 years: small & mid size sail boats, cars, speaker cabinets, house interior & exteriors etc ..................
You choose your paint carefully but the formulation changes anyway, you choose the optimum weather & temperature but that's often outside proper control. Then you attempt to control your pre-paint finish, the most important factor. Someone has posted that you should be "sanding the wood not the paint" ............ that's **, in practice your (hobby) project made as a "one off" will have many defects that require filling & generally several coats of whatever undercoat you have chosen. The manufacturers claim the undercoats "have good flattening" properties & sand freely but I have found that is generally not true. Primer-surfacers with high talc content do sand beautifully but don't flatten so well, my choice most times but not readily available.
Even my well sanded & defect repaired speaker cabinets (MDF, plywood or particle board) will generally need three coats of undercoat with intermediate sanding to get the finish that I consider acceptable & that' still below a decent commercial finish.
BTW my wife & I recently re-painted 17 interior flat panel doors in our home. They were not flat to start with we discovered & also they had been repaired after some abuse.
I guess we tried three different undercoats, God alone knows how many different fillers & filling/ feathering & painting techniques (spraying was out of the question in our circumstances). Ultimately we achieved a roller finish that would pass for a "not so hot spay job", it was a great improvement & a job well done in the bigger picture. Problem was no-one in their right mind would undertake a repeat exercise so I consider we failed, far too much work, my wife reckons we could have bought new doors twice over!
Now about that demo of yours ..................
Yes its possible metal processing will cause marks, but I doubt BMW's show this, & I think the orange peel I mentioned is rare. It may now even be totally eliminated.
Regarding spray finishes; I guess I agree, although I think it's not a easy as you allow it to sound.
But if you can roll or brush finish without any marks or defects except dust then you are a bloody marvel & I'd pay to see you do it.
I've been doing this on a hobby basis for 40 years: small & mid size sail boats, cars, speaker cabinets, house interior & exteriors etc ..................
You choose your paint carefully but the formulation changes anyway, you choose the optimum weather & temperature but that's often outside proper control. Then you attempt to control your pre-paint finish, the most important factor. Someone has posted that you should be "sanding the wood not the paint" ............ that's **, in practice your (hobby) project made as a "one off" will have many defects that require filling & generally several coats of whatever undercoat you have chosen. The manufacturers claim the undercoats "have good flattening" properties & sand freely but I have found that is generally not true. Primer-surfacers with high talc content do sand beautifully but don't flatten so well, my choice most times but not readily available.
Even my well sanded & defect repaired speaker cabinets (MDF, plywood or particle board) will generally need three coats of undercoat with intermediate sanding to get the finish that I consider acceptable & that' still below a decent commercial finish.
BTW my wife & I recently re-painted 17 interior flat panel doors in our home. They were not flat to start with we discovered & also they had been repaired after some abuse.
I guess we tried three different undercoats, God alone knows how many different fillers & filling/ feathering & painting techniques (spraying was out of the question in our circumstances). Ultimately we achieved a roller finish that would pass for a "not so hot spay job", it was a great improvement & a job well done in the bigger picture. Problem was no-one in their right mind would undertake a repeat exercise so I consider we failed, far too much work, my wife reckons we could have bought new doors twice over!
Now about that demo of yours ..................
I made that statement (in another thread) to imply that you should get the wood as good as possible then paint, i.e. avoid trying to fix the poor wood surface by lots of paint and lots of sanding. Of course you still need to sand between primer coats.
I have BMW 525D which has inferior paint work to the thread starter's photos on the first page🙂 I am sure you can find few of them where you live to be able to take a good look up close.
As for the demo, take a look at my post on previous page, there's photo attached with brush painted box. I am still fighting dust and other particles with every coat. Hairy rollers drop hair, brushes attract dust and drop hair too, all kinds of things fall from thin air. Foam rollers are cleanest, but inject air bubbles...
I'm gonna side with ZDR on the orange peel surface on new cars today. They Suck! I've got a '94 Porsche that was repainted before I bought it, the dentist who owned it prior to me said he paid $7,000 for the paint job! I believe it too. Zero orange peel from eyeball up close, not the 1.5 meter standard of today. Even Mercedes have orange peel finsih...tisk, tisk.
I am still waiting for the name of the product that you (ZDR) used with a brush for that finish. With only one coat no less! It is a miracle and I want some of that paint. So, tell us what brand and how long does it take to dry? Oil base? Water base? Acrylic Base? Alkaloid base?
That truly is an astounding finish on that speaker box. Please share with us your steps and brushes / rollers type you use.
I have sprayed a similar high gloss finish before, didn't need polishing and was very high gloss. It was white and $300 for 2 gallons!!! Same paint as on the Space Shuttle. 😱
Not quite ready to pay to see you apply this with a brush, but I am skeptical.....
Ron
I am still waiting for the name of the product that you (ZDR) used with a brush for that finish. With only one coat no less! It is a miracle and I want some of that paint. So, tell us what brand and how long does it take to dry? Oil base? Water base? Acrylic Base? Alkaloid base?
That truly is an astounding finish on that speaker box. Please share with us your steps and brushes / rollers type you use.
I have sprayed a similar high gloss finish before, didn't need polishing and was very high gloss. It was white and $300 for 2 gallons!!! Same paint as on the Space Shuttle. 😱
Not quite ready to pay to see you apply this with a brush, but I am skeptical.....
Ron
Hold it right there - it's not a single coat🙂. The box was painted before with 1 layer primer + 1 layer can spray paint which developed cracks all over few days later, and all that happened 3 years ago. I had to sand it before applying this brush layer:
Levis info : le sommaire de produit
It's just a polyurethane paint, like many others. I believe you can do the same with most of paints out there, as long as they are slow drying (24hours at least between coats) and as long as you don't trust the user manual when it says "ready for use" - I dilute it right away with at least 10% thinner, as if I was preparing it for spray gun.
Also, the photo does not tell the whole story. There are many dust particles all over it, which is why I plan to sand an polish in the end. I took a photo in such a way so that those anomalies don't show.
I am going run next layer with foam roller to see if there will be less dirt particles. I don't have special painting chamber; I paint where I sand, which does not help at all.
ZDR,
Thanks for the reply and explaination..........Merci a vous.
Tips for reducing dust nibs. (dust particles) others feel free to add your tips too!
Don't paint where you sand
Start by laying NEW newspaper or I use roll Kraft paper under the project
Spray the paper with water before setting up the project to paint
Drape off the area (walls and ceiling) with el Cheapo plastic drop cloths on 5 sides, use a cloth tarp on the floor (wet it down with water too)
Buy and use a cheap Tyvek suit (use it only for painting)
Use a clean applicator (brush, foam, or roller) Duh.
Use a tack cloth and / or mineral spirits to wipe down project
Pour paint / varnish into separate container, never dip brush into new cans.
These are some of my steps to decrease dust nibs. Never can get them all
Please feel free to add on to the above list. We're all here to help each other get better. 🙂
Ron
Thanks for the reply and explaination..........Merci a vous.
Tips for reducing dust nibs. (dust particles) others feel free to add your tips too!
Don't paint where you sand
Start by laying NEW newspaper or I use roll Kraft paper under the project
Spray the paper with water before setting up the project to paint
Drape off the area (walls and ceiling) with el Cheapo plastic drop cloths on 5 sides, use a cloth tarp on the floor (wet it down with water too)
Buy and use a cheap Tyvek suit (use it only for painting)
Use a clean applicator (brush, foam, or roller) Duh.
Use a tack cloth and / or mineral spirits to wipe down project
Pour paint / varnish into separate container, never dip brush into new cans.
These are some of my steps to decrease dust nibs. Never can get them all
Please feel free to add on to the above list. We're all here to help each other get better. 🙂
Ron
I am about to give up on piano black, I just don't have what it takes. I tried almost everything; that first layer was the best. With every next layer things got worse and worse. Two types of rollers, brush - the particles and anomalies mounted up so much that I had to go back to 150 sand paper, going down almost to base coat. I tried also polishing, but either I suck at that too, or the polish sucks, or both🙂 In the end, I got not that shiny surface with lots of scratches. Smallest sand paper I could find and use was 600.
I'll be there at veneering forum, oil is sooo much easier to apply🙂
I'll be there at veneering forum, oil is sooo much easier to apply🙂
😀 I will give it a rest for few days, than back to that layer one technique🙂 That's the best I can do so far - brush and thin paint.
As far as polishing method goes, I will try to develop my skills first on a smaller surface before I go for the real thing.
zdr,
I actually know nothing about the "piano black"process.
But even I can readily figure it's likely the ultimate challenge.
If you are desperate to master this finish, I am sure you can, but expect some heartache along the way.
IMHO every project has to justify the time & effort expended.
If it's speaker cabinets, which we talk about mostly here, then I'd say the minimum quality finish is best because soon you will be wondering if you can improve the sonic qualities.
I don't mean do a rubbish or hurried job, just accept that your wife & friends will probably never see what you have worked for, & will likely just want increased volume.
My problem always starts with: which design can I trust to deliver high sonic results at an affordable price".
Of late I have made several bookshelf style speaker enclosures (sealed) using scrounged 12 mm plywood & car speakers. God forgive me, but the speakers actually deliver reasonable results, at least to my ears.
I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has gone down this track perhaps experimentally?
I actually know nothing about the "piano black"process.
But even I can readily figure it's likely the ultimate challenge.
If you are desperate to master this finish, I am sure you can, but expect some heartache along the way.
IMHO every project has to justify the time & effort expended.
If it's speaker cabinets, which we talk about mostly here, then I'd say the minimum quality finish is best because soon you will be wondering if you can improve the sonic qualities.
I don't mean do a rubbish or hurried job, just accept that your wife & friends will probably never see what you have worked for, & will likely just want increased volume.
My problem always starts with: which design can I trust to deliver high sonic results at an affordable price".
Of late I have made several bookshelf style speaker enclosures (sealed) using scrounged 12 mm plywood & car speakers. God forgive me, but the speakers actually deliver reasonable results, at least to my ears.
I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has gone down this track perhaps experimentally?
Not that we would be willing to admit. 😱 By design they are intended for use in a small enclosed area, they work, but you could do much better with other designs. Try this one.....(by Doc Emmett Brown )
HTGuide Forum - RS180 Modula MT - you asked for it, you got it!
Jon Marsh's 'RS180 Modula MT Simply shocked me how good it sounded. I used the Seas 27TDFC for the tweeter because I like the quality of that tweeter.
A pair could be built for ~$200 if you buy drivers from someone in the "trading post" . Watch your budget with XO components and you'll be lovin' life.
Ron
The "Piano black" finish that this thread is about is a stunning thing to behold. But I have to say that it is a finish that will show every speck of dust and greasy fingerprint and scratch. If you know how to maintain a finish like this and live in an entirely dust free home and you never touch your speakers then that is fine, but if you do not or someone goes at it with an unclean polishing cloth the flawless mirror effect is soon lost. A lot of work goes into producing the finish but it takes very little work to ruin it.
Been there, done it..............life is to short.
Been there, done it..............life is to short.
Try an auto parts store for higher grit number (finer) sandpaper. Most here carry to 2000 grit. You have to go a lot finer than 600 grit to get a shiny finish. Some polishes are designed to take care of 1200 grit scratches, but most need you to go to at least 1500.
Also, be sure to thoroughly clean the project and surrounding area when you are finished with each grit. A couple of 600 grit particles will make nasty scratches in a 1000 grit finish.
Good luck, and remember that sanding helps your muscle tone.
Any comparison to ZD5, Hatt, Pluto? I kinda doubt it would be any step forward compared to any of those, and I have them all... Or did you mean as big step up from car speakers in the box? 😀
Bob Ellis flexes his muscles...........and his shirt rips! I've seen your work. Excellent.
ZDR, Car speakers in a box......... and No not as nice as the ZD5. You were asking about cheap. I'm Done talking speakers, this is a paint thread. Sorry for the sidestep.
Ron
ZDR, Car speakers in a box......... and No not as nice as the ZD5. You were asking about cheap. I'm Done talking speakers, this is a paint thread. Sorry for the sidestep.
Ron
Back to topics. I visited a car shop in search for >600 sand paper, but did not find it (I did found a JBL 12" car woofer on sale for 40e instead, but no more OT🙂. Anyway, while looking for sand paper I noticed a brochure with wood treatment instructions and guess what they recommend for using as a fine sanding material - steel wool 0. I'm going to try it tonight after 600 sand paper.
Wire wool will not remove surface texture such as roller stipple of brush marks left in the paint film. It is best used with wood finishes.
There will be no roller or brush marks after sanding with 600 paper. I only have issue with sandpaper marks on already pretty flat surface which cannot be taken out by scratch remover.