@kirvium: sure i will try out bigger coaxes if this configuration turns out to be the one i like.. I already had some doubts regarding dynamics capabilities of small drivers.. Let me just do some level matched listening between all the different configurations and see what happens..
I started with asking asking around for the Faital pro 8hx200. But it was not available anywhere at the time.
Is there any information about what coaxes Kimmosto uses in these speakers?
https://taipuuspeakers.fi/en/taipuu-speakers-dsp-active-speakers/
I started with asking asking around for the Faital pro 8hx200. But it was not available anywhere at the time.
Is there any information about what coaxes Kimmosto uses in these speakers?
https://taipuuspeakers.fi/en/taipuu-speakers-dsp-active-speakers/
Taipuu is Bms: 18n862 for 18", coax 15c262 ( i think, might be a 362?).
The other one idk.
Probably a 15c262 on the two way too.
The 4 way?
The other one idk.
Probably a 15c262 on the two way too.
The 4 way?
Abandoned projects in white proto cabs next to the finished BMS 10C262/12N630
Will try this next:
Will try this next:
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SEAS W19TX coaxial with Textreme cone and tweeter.
More importantly- do you have a Hor 0-90 degree measurement?
More importantly- do you have a Hor 0-90 degree measurement?
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Something like that, yes (except with a shorter voice coil, dedicated for mid/tre duty and slightly more efficient). Will have raw anechoic data when proto cab is finished.
It’s really, really hard to find replacement for displacement! This is for a commercial project and some folks are simply not prepared for what big divers and CD:s bring in terms of and hifi enthusiasts are especially wary of DSP. Passive smaller speakers is what dealers like to sell.
The passive filter for the BMS coax speaker is huge and expensive, seven coils and that’s with an active bass.
It’s really, really hard to find replacement for displacement! This is for a commercial project and some folks are simply not prepared for what big divers and CD:s bring in terms of and hifi enthusiasts are especially wary of DSP. Passive smaller speakers is what dealers like to sell.
The passive filter for the BMS coax speaker is huge and expensive, seven coils and that’s with an active bass.
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the BMS speaker itself is big and expensive 🙂 but at least per the data sheet, its pretty smooth up top!
I would say it’s pretty much the opposite 😉. Being a wide dispersion CD with it’s acoustical center far back from the cone it’s also quite unforgiving, DSP and time alignment are your best friends here. 0-90 degree free field measurements with a good analogue mike taken at least a meter out are a pretty much a must for VCad work.
These are not drivers for the faint hearted but once wrestled into submission they deliver a sq that is out of the ordinary.
These are not drivers for the faint hearted but once wrestled into submission they deliver a sq that is out of the ordinary.
I just looked through the BMS library again. I didn't see any today I would call smooth. I thought I had seen one yesterday. Looks like the 10C262 you picked is the smoothest. I would definitely measure and use DSP/FIR to deal with the top end and time alignment.
Next speaker/2 way top module is on the way to completion.. 😀
Some pics
There is some major confusion caused by my two measurement mics: a) Dayton emm-6, b) Minidsp UMIK-1
even after applying calibration files. Basically I don't know which mic is telling me the correct frequency response.
For example, here is a comparison measurement between the two mics kept at almost the exact same location and height. Red plot is the dayton emm-6 and green is the minidsp umik-1
The minidsp mic is showing a droop down in response after about 4kHz.
Please let me know if there are any ways to solve this mismatch. In the meanwhile, i have gone ahead and brought another cheap mic which is the sonarworks xref20, which will hopefully reach me in a few days. 🙂
Some pics
There is some major confusion caused by my two measurement mics: a) Dayton emm-6, b) Minidsp UMIK-1
even after applying calibration files. Basically I don't know which mic is telling me the correct frequency response.
For example, here is a comparison measurement between the two mics kept at almost the exact same location and height. Red plot is the dayton emm-6 and green is the minidsp umik-1
The minidsp mic is showing a droop down in response after about 4kHz.
Please let me know if there are any ways to solve this mismatch. In the meanwhile, i have gone ahead and brought another cheap mic which is the sonarworks xref20, which will hopefully reach me in a few days. 🙂
It looks like the Dayton Cal file is inverted, most of the cheap measuring mics use a very similar capsule and the cal files end up being quite similar. If you invert the Dayton one I think you will find it looks very much like the miniDSP one.
You have entered the zone of measurement uncertainty... it is much like the twilight zone, but it is not fiction, it is real... and very frustrating.
Once I had just one mic, the OmniMic, I has happy, blissful, and content. Then I got a second mic (EMM6). The differences were startling to me, similar to what you found. When measuring the same drivers, I had a 1.5 dB difference at ~ 3k, and a 3 dB divergence above 10k. At that point I could not trust either mic, all my past and future measurements were suspect. I had fallen into the measurement uncertainty zone, and I could not find a way out... so I bought a third one (Audix TM1), and found that the Audix and OmniMic closely agreed with each other. The EMM6 in now in a box, buried under some books.
If you can measure your mics against some kind of reference, you can judge which one is more accurate. Perhaps you can borrow a calibrated microphone from someone?
The dayton EMM6 calibration file should probably be smoothed. If you measured multiple drivers with that mic+calibration, I bet you would see the calibration "fingerprints" on every driver you measured. I would start with 1/3 octave smoothing.
Best of luck... this stage of speaker building is not fun. Losing confidence in your measurements is very frustrating.
j.
Once I had just one mic, the OmniMic, I has happy, blissful, and content. Then I got a second mic (EMM6). The differences were startling to me, similar to what you found. When measuring the same drivers, I had a 1.5 dB difference at ~ 3k, and a 3 dB divergence above 10k. At that point I could not trust either mic, all my past and future measurements were suspect. I had fallen into the measurement uncertainty zone, and I could not find a way out... so I bought a third one (Audix TM1), and found that the Audix and OmniMic closely agreed with each other. The EMM6 in now in a box, buried under some books.
If you can measure your mics against some kind of reference, you can judge which one is more accurate. Perhaps you can borrow a calibrated microphone from someone?
The dayton EMM6 calibration file should probably be smoothed. If you measured multiple drivers with that mic+calibration, I bet you would see the calibration "fingerprints" on every driver you measured. I would start with 1/3 octave smoothing.
Best of luck... this stage of speaker building is not fun. Losing confidence in your measurements is very frustrating.
j.
This is how the 2 way speaker looks now.. 😀
.
A very talented friend built these speaker cabinets for me. I wanted the roundover/chamfer around the waveguide to start immediately at the edge of the waevguide itself, but due to constraints involved in the box making process, the dual roundover i had i initially planned had to be reduced to a single roundover resultimg in an enclosure like this.. 🙂 To my eyes, the speaker looks nice.. 😀. Now I am very eagerly waiting to take some measurements and see how good it is all acoustically..
A very talented friend built these speaker cabinets for me. I wanted the roundover/chamfer around the waveguide to start immediately at the edge of the waevguide itself, but due to constraints involved in the box making process, the dual roundover i had i initially planned had to be reduced to a single roundover resultimg in an enclosure like this.. 🙂 To my eyes, the speaker looks nice.. 😀. Now I am very eagerly waiting to take some measurements and see how good it is all acoustically..
More hardware for the overall set up has reached home. 😀
1) Sonarworks xref 20mic - Right after i got it in hands i took a measurement and compared it with minidsp umik-1. This is how it looks.
Red color plot is that of the sonarworks xref 20. Green color plot is that of the minidsp umik-1. So still there is some difference at the high frequencies. I will try to take a measurement of the sb26cdc tweeter on a very wide baffle and see which one matches up with the data sheet better at the highest frequencies.
2) New 6 channel amp made a friend has reached home. 🙂
More exciting times ahead.. 😀
1) Sonarworks xref 20mic - Right after i got it in hands i took a measurement and compared it with minidsp umik-1. This is how it looks.
Red color plot is that of the sonarworks xref 20. Green color plot is that of the minidsp umik-1. So still there is some difference at the high frequencies. I will try to take a measurement of the sb26cdc tweeter on a very wide baffle and see which one matches up with the data sheet better at the highest frequencies.
2) New 6 channel amp made a friend has reached home. 🙂
More exciting times ahead.. 😀
Try and make a few measurements with the same mic, place the mic then move it and try and put it back where it was. This will test your repeatability.
There is only a small difference in reality above 6K (like a shelving effect), see what happens trying to measure the same thing five times first.
Thank you fluid... I will definitely try out this experiment in a few days time..
Nice looking amp and speakers! I suppose the amp has some kind of soft start, it must suck quite a lot of power when switched on...
Tweeters are known to vary a little bit in terms of sensitivity, so doing that might cause even further confusion.
Most of the differences in your mics lie above 5 kHz. For those top 2 octaves, individual preferences come to play as well (like bass)
Short of getting your mics calibrated to an ANSI standard, or buying a reference mic like Earthworks M23R, an alternative is to move forward with your crossover design and adjust the top two octaves to your tastes (and room). Easy to do with DSP.
In fact I believe all speakers should have it built in!
@Juhazi : Thank you... 🙂 I haven't yet started using this amp properly. But as you said, it does suck in some power..
@tktran303: Here in India, i dont have access to any service where they do proper calibration of my mics. The earthworks mic also costs more than my speakers and amps together.. 🙂 So at the moment i don't have these options.
I will conduct the experiment fluid suggested so that I too will get some idea regarding the repeatability of my measurements.. 🙂
But I agree with your comment that the levels of the top octaves are a matter of preference. This is what I have found out in my own limited experience too.. atleast so far.. I am going to continue with these mics for the moment for crossover design. Just waiting for my 2 way speakers to arrive home (in 2-3 days) 😀
@tktran303: Here in India, i dont have access to any service where they do proper calibration of my mics. The earthworks mic also costs more than my speakers and amps together.. 🙂 So at the moment i don't have these options.
I will conduct the experiment fluid suggested so that I too will get some idea regarding the repeatability of my measurements.. 🙂
But I agree with your comment that the levels of the top octaves are a matter of preference. This is what I have found out in my own limited experience too.. atleast so far.. I am going to continue with these mics for the moment for crossover design. Just waiting for my 2 way speakers to arrive home (in 2-3 days) 😀