Yes.. This is what I have been finding of late as well.. The highs nad to some extent the mids catches attention in my main system that uses the st260Kvar.
For me, the cardioid speaker sounds more balanced/natural in this regard.. 🙂 Lot of variables at play including directivity, distortion, speaker placement and the effects that @tmuikku has been detailing above and then other unknowns. So I have been finding it a little difficult to separate out what contributes what to the perceived sound..
Hence my motivation to try a bigger cardioid system + waveguide to see if it sounds similar as well.. 🙂
edit: For me this attention grabbing effect in the highs is more pronounced in the new house and main speaker placement, which is more damped compared to my old house which was mostly an echo chamber. My main system was more pleasant to listen to in that echo chamber compared to the current room . Another reason is that my wife, who has more sensitive hearing than me finds my main system intolerable after a few songs.. She says it is throwing high frequency detail in your face kind of way.. She is unable to the system listen even from the kitchen which is 2 walls away. But the other day, she played music on my cardioid system for hours.. and found it to be much more likeable 😀
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Some say (and I tend to agree) that the 'in your face' sound can be related to amps too. Not sure what amps you're running, but you could try some simple DIY class A amp (JLH 1969 as an example) or similar to see what you/your wife think about it. I'm guessing horns can give you that 'in your face' sound too, but it could be a combination of amp and horn loading.
Great thread, by the way!
Great thread, by the way!
If the better half likes it; then it must be good… go forth and explore this phenomena further, brother !
I think it is irrelevant and unnecessary to discuss and decide which is best system. We need different kinds of speakers for different use scenarios! Distance, locations, room size and RT, music type etc. are factors behind what kind of speaker the user/you find best or most pleasant.
I hate deep horns and don't have such at home. But I have traditional 3-way, dipole 4-way, coaxial 2 and 3-ways and small/shallow waveguide 2-ways. And omnipoles at summer cabin!
I hate deep horns and don't have such at home. But I have traditional 3-way, dipole 4-way, coaxial 2 and 3-ways and small/shallow waveguide 2-ways. And omnipoles at summer cabin!
Thank you 🙂
I have only used Class AB and Class D amps so far. I have been using a Marantz PM5005 amplifier on the horns ( BMS 4550 + ST260KVAR.
I had also tried Peerless DFM 2544R + ST260 KVAR. Both the combinations have more or less similar sound signature crossed over at around 1.2kHz and on axis response flattened and till down slightly. If anything, I prefer the BMS a bit more compared to the Peerless. But I havent done that many comparison tests between them either.
To be clear, I dont find the system offending my ears in any sense. It sounds clean to me..
It is just that there is a feeling that the resolution in the highs is not somehow not matched by the frequencies lower down from the lows to mids. One of my hypothesis is that this could be due to large directivity step from about 200Hz to 2kHz range ( close to 10 dB). For reference here is the response of my main system
Whereas with the cardioid system, it looks like this
I don't have any class A amps but if it is worth getting one, I will try that too..
Extensive room treatment is a luxury that I am not able to afford at the moment due to multiple reasons. So my idea now is to explore whether a bigger cardioid 15inch + EXAR 400 waveguide behaves/sounds similar ( due to similar directivity in the mids and to some extemt in the highs) to my cardioid 3way but cleaner at even higher SPLs (in terms of distortion profile and compression spectrum)
@tktran303: Definitely worth exploring the idea as the WAF is what eventually makes or breaks a system at home.. 😀
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I'm not sure you really want to add an audio based space heater in India, just from a practical perpective 🙂
Sifting through the chaff of opinions to try and guide yourself to an improvement is tricky business.
I think big part of this perceptual "feeling" is from localization as in depth/distance; at extreme highs could localize inside your head, like with headphones, while lows (mids) in front of you like with loudspeakers typically.
Try concentrate listening how far in front of you the stereo image seems to be, and if different parts of spectra differ in this regard, especially highs that naturally beam and also attenuate faster in room easily are more forward, closer to you.
This is something you can listen utilizing the transition. If you sit about at the transition and lean back a bit, and image goes farther from you, more in front of you, and if you lean forward the image appears closer to you, especially the highs and depending on toe-in and base width between the speakers. Keep on moving and you'll quite quickly hear how the localization in terms of "depth" or "closeness" changes and learn to hear this aspect of stereo sound, where the image localizes.
When you toe-in the speakers so that you are on-axis, and especially with very short listening distance, you should be able to actually get high frequencies to localize inside your head like with headphones. If you really want to develop listening skill in regards to this, put the setup in a corner in such way that: your chair is on the corner so that you face towards the room. Put speakers quite close left and right of you, close to the walls left and right of you, experiment with toe-in and how far they are from you. At least my speakers and room make the sound localize right inside my head just like with headphones, with quite nice "ambience", the room sound. Put another chair so that you face towards the corner, just swap between the two listening positions to teach yourself.
First thing I ever built was a valve guitar amp which blew up on first turn on. Second thing I built was a Spud valve amp that I still have somewhere, that did not blow up 😉
@fluid , @tktran303: So far, I thought about amplifiers as black boxes. I just focussed on aspects like whether its frequency response is linear, distortion is low etc.. But then suddenly, last year, I hear this from Greg Timbers from 55min onwards in the below video.
He uses all linear phase crossovers on DEQX DSP and says that on the CD-horn channel, use a tube amp.. 😲
Now I am confused about whether I have understood anything about speakers & amps at all.. 😲
Thanks @tmuikku 🙂
Yes I am going to do more experiments on the main system w.r.t placement and listening to it. Since my DSP set up is on the cardioid system now, my main speakers have been out of action for a few weeks. I will get another DSP in some time. Till then I will make a passive crossover for the main system and try to do all these listening evaluations
He uses all linear phase crossovers on DEQX DSP and says that on the CD-horn channel, use a tube amp.. 😲
Now I am confused about whether I have understood anything about speakers & amps at all.. 😲
Thanks @tmuikku 🙂
Yes I am going to do more experiments on the main system w.r.t placement and listening to it. Since my DSP set up is on the cardioid system now, my main speakers have been out of action for a few weeks. I will get another DSP in some time. Till then I will make a passive crossover for the main system and try to do all these listening evaluations
Hi, you can do it with the cardioids as well! 🙂
Main takeaway with the listening experiment above is that at least with my (cardioidish) speakers I could indeed localize sound inside my head with particular positioning, just like with headphones, but with speakers!
This indicates that when I'm listening to music with speaker system, or watching television, listening the kids make noise, car pass by, and sound is in front of me, somewhere around where the sound source is, it's mostly due to early reflections in the environment making me aware of the location. The early reflections localize the sound to the sound source, or perhaps not to the sound source but at least the part of room the sound source is located at, the speakers. Duh, this is evident, right? It's kind of obvious, and we have probably all observed and read about it many times but perhaps never actually paid attention to the perception too much, but to be conscious about it makes the listening skill! 😀
Conducting realtime adjustable experiment and really paying attention to the localization, when sound is inside the head or in front, gives a lot of perspective to understand how the room affects sound. And really teaches what I actually want to hear from my stereo system, do I want the sound localize inside my head or in front of me? If I wanted it inside my head why no just use the headphones? So, basically it is all just listening skill, I mean, everytime we listen to music we just listen to something we pay attention to the content but not necessarily pay that much attention to stuff like the localization since it is natural and obvious that the sound is where the source is. Experimenting with localization gives a lot of experience how to listen this kind of stuff, which then helps to listen effect of loudspeaker DI for example.
If you align the scales between the Vituix style and Klippel style, there are some striking similarities between the Kero and the Ascend
The DI graphs don't line up but the rest do
The DI graphs don't line up but the rest do
Take Griesinger source separation stuff, that when original harmonics of a sound are preserved well, brain can pick it up above noise as it's own neural stream. The reason this happens is that on every cycle of fundamental all the harmonics are in same phase, which makes huge peak in amplitude, which gives a lot of signal to noise ratio for the sound, and also a pitch to identify the sound from all the sound around us. And when this happens, the sound feels close, is clear, and good in general.
If you take that, and think about what linear phase filters would do: they would help preserve the original harmonics by preserving group delay, which means greater signal to noise ratio for brain to pick it out. What about a tube/class a amp? great amount of low order harmonics! take 100Hz note with a bass quitar for example, whose natural harmonics are 200Hz, 300Hz, 400hz... now, add tube amp which would add 2nd harmonic to all of those, which would align to? 🙂 200Hz, 400Hz, 600Hz, and so on which would boost the original harmonics increasing signal to noise ratio, helping the brain. Ever heard people say distortion adds presence? 🙂
But not all kinds of distortion. Take IMD, which does not align to the original harmonics, a loudspeaker woofer where bass note makes excursion adding IMD to everything, which is basically noise, sounds that do not align with any of the original sounds or their harmonic content, which in effect would decrade the signal to noise ratio for brain.
Now, assuming this is true we can use simple logic: the further away from speakers you listen, and the more there is IMD, and the more messed up step response is, and less added harmonics, more edge diffraction, and so on, the less there is signal to noise ratio and brain cannot attach to the sound as well. Fatigue, bad sound.
What it means? try to listen if you hear "the transition". I could speculate that if one cannot identify "the transition", which defines if brain can latch in or not, perhaps original harmonics are messed up by the system, before room ruins it? In which case, improve your speakers. Or, if you have the transition far into the room, the system ought to work nicely as it is the room that ruins it eventually, speaker system seems fine.
What about compare big horn speaker with tube amplifier to a small two way with direct radiating tweeter? Both could in theory sound about the same as long as listening distance is very short with the small speaker, which reduces SPL requirement which reduces IMD, early reflections, and equalizes the systems ability to preserve original harmonics, making brain happier!
Speculating further, why would horn speaker sound impressive? because your brain attaches to the sound better, even at distance. And so on. A lot of things can be reasoned against the idea of source separation, preservation of original harmonics.
Well, reality is rarely simple as this, so, just something to think about 🙂
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That harmonic addition theory is really nice @tmuikku 🙂
Logically it makes some sense in this context. Especially connecting it with Greisinger' s localisation distance ideas..
I have heard multiple other people saying that CD horns sound nice with tube amps but never even cared about it untill I heard it in the video above. Now we have atleast some testable theory.. Like playing a single tone and monitoring the levels of the harmonics with a solid state vs tube amp.. Then listening for the differences in sound with an instrument playing and listening to the speaker at different distances etc.. 🙂
I don't have any tube amps with me nor is it easy for me to get one for testing.
I wish somebody having a tube amp and a CD horn put this theory to test.. 🙂
Logically it makes some sense in this context. Especially connecting it with Greisinger' s localisation distance ideas..
I have heard multiple other people saying that CD horns sound nice with tube amps but never even cared about it untill I heard it in the video above. Now we have atleast some testable theory.. Like playing a single tone and monitoring the levels of the harmonics with a solid state vs tube amp.. Then listening for the differences in sound with an instrument playing and listening to the speaker at different distances etc.. 🙂
I don't have any tube amps with me nor is it easy for me to get one for testing.
I wish somebody having a tube amp and a CD horn put this theory to test.. 🙂
And now my intended post
Also there a "loudness" issue, but then the luminosity setting.
Btw the icc color definitions as standardized around 1930 (and still the basis today) are not what one could say was scientifically correct researched.
Note: i am a fine art printer coming from being a photographer.
It appears to be human to have standards and to add more and atcthe same time avoid these. ;-)
Hmm, there are multiple color standards for displays, even for image and print preparation and only a bare few manufacturers stick to those.
Also there a "loudness" issue, but then the luminosity setting.
Btw the icc color definitions as standardized around 1930 (and still the basis today) are not what one could say was scientifically correct researched.
Note: i am a fine art printer coming from being a photographer.
It appears to be human to have standards and to add more and atcthe same time avoid these. ;-)
I like @tmuikku 's elaborate posts. To digest takes time, still some remarks given his post above.
Not just the amount of harmonics, but even more so the even decay and stability are of importance. Same with noise, if noise (always present in amplifiers) get modulated by the signal, it becomes more audible. If not modulated the brain can sort of dismiss it as it is a constant. The difference is not subtle.
And yes distortion is used by mix/master engineering to make it sound louder.
I remember an article in 2005 i believe were this was discussed.
This transition distance is quite noticeable, that is clear to me. But also that even beyond that sound can be enjoyable if the reflections that together with the direct sound mix and reverb nicely.
In a concert hall this same transition is there, but does not mean that beyond this line it is bad sounding. It can however ;-)
Not just the amount of harmonics, but even more so the even decay and stability are of importance. Same with noise, if noise (always present in amplifiers) get modulated by the signal, it becomes more audible. If not modulated the brain can sort of dismiss it as it is a constant. The difference is not subtle.
And yes distortion is used by mix/master engineering to make it sound louder.
I remember an article in 2005 i believe were this was discussed.
This transition distance is quite noticeable, that is clear to me. But also that even beyond that sound can be enjoyable if the reflections that together with the direct sound mix and reverb nicely.
In a concert hall this same transition is there, but does not mean that beyond this line it is bad sounding. It can however ;-)
It's not far from what I've been doing over the past couple of years 😀.
I did not use any valve amp yet, but I guess my Goldmund Telos inspired Mosfet monster probably isn't too far behind.
My biggest quest has been to get a minimum phase impulse at the ears, over the bandwidth my system plays and make sure the room plays along with the speakers to get there. The addition of ambience channels makes up for my (real) room properties but also adds back what I stole from that room with treatment. The intent has never been to create a dead listening room. Griesinger's lectures have been key to "get" the bigger picture.
Also read Griesinger's theories on bass! If anything, stereo bass can add an extra layer of envelopment and ambience. Definitely worth it!
I'd go even further saying balance is key. Meaning that even a lack of bass can make the top end perceived as more fatiguing.