in either way the second woofer was just a SUBwoofer
yes, but this is both not typical and not exactly in the same league as the studio stuff discussed so far in this thread
In the case of the Tannoys there is no way I would describe a woofer that covers 35-250Hz as a SUBwoofer.
The end user just has to decide if he wants the DualConcentric to run from 35Hz up or from 250Hz up. Personally I prefer them in 3way mode (DC from 250Hz) as it cleans up the midrange but I know others who prefer to run the DC fullrange.
I have no idea what your issue with the Focals may be. They compete directly on every level with similarly priced ATCs, Genelecs etc and are very popular in their market segment.
I have never said that they are typical, it's just that you said that you know of no studio monitors that use two smaller woofers in a 2.5 arrangement instead of one larger woofer and now you do.
The end user just has to decide if he wants the DualConcentric to run from 35Hz up or from 250Hz up. Personally I prefer them in 3way mode (DC from 250Hz) as it cleans up the midrange but I know others who prefer to run the DC fullrange.
I have no idea what your issue with the Focals may be. They compete directly on every level with similarly priced ATCs, Genelecs etc and are very popular in their market segment.
I have never said that they are typical, it's just that you said that you know of no studio monitors that use two smaller woofers in a 2.5 arrangement instead of one larger woofer and now you do.
yes, You're right of course, actually that was what I wrote before myself, last time typing too fast perhaps
my point is that - anyway - the midrange is covered by a 15'', not by two 12'' or two 10'' and so on... nor by any specialized midrange dome etc.
so - if the proof of the pudding is in the eating, then there is nothing bad in a really big woofer covering the midrange, much bigger than 8'', quite contrary to prevailing popular audiophile beliefs, rigth?
similarly priced
thank You for that
I have no issues with larger drivers covering the midrange.
I use what is effectively a diy'ed 12" version of the 215s where the DC covers from 250Hz up.
That said I equally have no issues with midrange domes, I just can't justify the cost of ATC or Volt domes right now. But I would very much like to try the 5" BMS 5S117 cone as a mid since the published THD curve looks very good (THD down by 45dB where it matters to me at 110dBspl can't be all bad!).
As they say: There are many ways to skin a cat. ;-)
I use what is effectively a diy'ed 12" version of the 215s where the DC covers from 250Hz up.
That said I equally have no issues with midrange domes, I just can't justify the cost of ATC or Volt domes right now. But I would very much like to try the 5" BMS 5S117 cone as a mid since the published THD curve looks very good (THD down by 45dB where it matters to me at 110dBspl can't be all bad!).
As they say: There are many ways to skin a cat. ;-)
surely, in trade particularly
OTOH if a 2-way can do the thing then what's the point of DIY-ing a 3-way - with crossover points at say 350 Hz and 3500 Hz - at all?
Why not just adhere to the KISS principle? What's the point of complicating things? Other than that it may look sexy and cool in comparison to a plain 2-way
But yes of course - I can understand that a company invents something, developes expertise on something, becomes famous for something and then it sticks to it, its own way to skin a cat, claiming that it is the BEST thing - like ATC with their dome midrange, just an example. Then sometimes it gains reputation because of the general quality of the product or becomes fashionable for whatever reason and so on.
But what's the point really besides fashion?
Hello there . Good post about a two way design with a 8 inch woofer and tweeter. When asked (I have already looked into it) I Was told there are not enough 8 inch woofers that go high enough to match the tweeters). I think I read you already had the drivers? What about looking at using the ScanSpeaks new fullrange drivers and cross them over between 300hz to 500hz on up? Here are the two model numbers for you: ( At madisound)
ScanSpeak 2 inch fullrange drivers are model number: 5F/8422T/01
ScanSpeak 4 inch fullrange drivers are model number: 10F/8414G/10
Well you could always use the drivers you got for another project like a (F.A.S.T.) design? Well I would have to start from strach. I would look at 8 inch fullrange drivers with a healthy x max and a higt DB. Again I hope this helps and good luck. Mr. Daniel
. Good post about a two way design with a 8 inch woofer and tweeter. When asked (I have already looked into it) I Was told there are not enough 8 inch woofers that go high enough to match the tweeters). I think I read you already had the drivers? What about looking at using the ScanSpeaks new fullrange drivers and cross them over between 300hz to 500hz on up? Here are the two model numbers for you: ( At madisound)ScanSpeak 2 inch fullrange drivers are model number: 5F/8422T/01
ScanSpeak 4 inch fullrange drivers are model number: 10F/8414G/10
Well you could always use the drivers you got for another project like a (F.A.S.T.) design? Well I would have to start from strach. I would look at 8 inch fullrange drivers with a healthy x max and a higt DB. Again I hope this helps and good luck. Mr. Daniel
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surely, in trade particularly
OTOH if a 2-way can do the thing then what's the point of DIY-ing a 3-way - with crossover points at say 350 Hz and 3500 Hz - at all?
In the case of my Tannoys the 12" is considerably cleaner in the mid-range since I removed the bass from its duties.
Space-wise to reach its full potential (29Hz) the DC needs a 200L cab whereas in my 3way set up with an additional 12" woofer the speakers go a little bit lower using about 170L total space.
They cross at 250 and 1200Hz btw.
Hi Sreten,
Do you think the above two ( or may be the Seas DXT instead of 27TFFC) can work in 2nd order crossover at 2 kHz ?
Else which drivers will be suitable ?
Thanks...
PS : Dynaudio I guess uses first order even for it 8+1 actives (or maybe its 2nd order acoustic)
I've got a side project for 8" Faital Pro W8N8-200's to xover to a pair of Altec 802 drivers in front of aluminum P-Audio PH-220's which have smooth flares.
I hope to xover between 800-1Khz to match horizontal dispersions and keep Doppler out of the picture as much as possible. The Faitals spec out to 74hz resonance but both the ones i received (they may have had some use before I got them) actually measured out to be in the mid '60's. With the lower resonance frequencies or even pushed a bit lower due to my sneaky Fs lowering technique, the Faitals actually model out to have a good response to under 40hz in a ~20L sized closed box with the charcoal treatment and AC coupling capacitor, and with their 8mm Xmax should be able to put out reasonably impressive LF SPL's.
I thought I would build the cabinets much like some of the BBC classic minimonitor types.
I hope to xover between 800-1Khz to match horizontal dispersions and keep Doppler out of the picture as much as possible. The Faitals spec out to 74hz resonance but both the ones i received (they may have had some use before I got them) actually measured out to be in the mid '60's. With the lower resonance frequencies or even pushed a bit lower due to my sneaky Fs lowering technique, the Faitals actually model out to have a good response to under 40hz in a ~20L sized closed box with the charcoal treatment and AC coupling capacitor, and with their 8mm Xmax should be able to put out reasonably impressive LF SPL's.
I thought I would build the cabinets much like some of the BBC classic minimonitor types.
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Both drivers can do LR2 at 2khz.....but directivity won't be a good match at the xo point and power response will suffer. The DXT isn't much of a waveguide where controlled directivity is an issue and that 8" woofer Sreten mentions will be narrowing and beaming like a lazer at 2khz so my suggestion to you would be 1.4khz thereabouts with a DIY or modified waveguide of some sorts for the Tweeter. I'm working on similiar with the Scanspeak Disco 8" and the thymphany HDS tweeter in a modded PRV tractrix guide.
IMO LR2 is strictly Mickey Mouse, mayhem13! I don't know why people think it's desirable at all, unless you like the rough sound. You should be using BW3 which has much better power response. LR4 is OK too, and suits 8" bass' steep natural rolloff, but I prefer BW3 which doesn't have the hole in power response at crossover and fills the room better.
If you want good dispersion you should be building a 3 way. As it is, 8" bass plus tweeter is a sweet combination even crossed over at 3kHz.
Look and learn how it should be done below. Sreten was right on the money with the SEAS U22REX. A lovely woofer, though I stick to my little old retro Monacor HT22/8 tweeters for the high end detail. Soft domes sound, well, just like soft domes IMO. Mush!
If you want good dispersion you should be building a 3 way. As it is, 8" bass plus tweeter is a sweet combination even crossed over at 3kHz.
Look and learn how it should be done below. Sreten was right on the money with the SEAS U22REX. A lovely woofer, though I stick to my little old retro Monacor HT22/8 tweeters for the high end detail. Soft domes sound, well, just like soft domes IMO. Mush!
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Mr. Gerald in Abbeville LA sold something called a "Decote 10" which was a 10" and a 1" tweeter. Sounded very warm and natural but not at all what I would consider a reference speaker. Sorta like a McIntosh.. Romanticized stuff to make everything sound good.
Was a great party / background speaker since it smoothed everything over but sounded nice.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that he always said the crossover components cost more than the driver components. Reason being was to tame the 10" in the mid section.
Was a great party / background speaker since it smoothed everything over but sounded nice.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that he always said the crossover components cost more than the driver components. Reason being was to tame the 10" in the mid section.
Big bass and small tweeter has a characteristic sound and dispersion. It is what it is really! Wharfedale Melton, Dynaco A25, SEAS A26 and DeVore Orangutan.
Easy valve friendly impedance and some good phase alignment if you learn the trick. 10" paper bass is the smallest paper bass size that has enough damping to work without huge filtering effort. Just because you can run them near crossoverless, doesn't mean you should though.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Easy valve friendly impedance and some good phase alignment if you learn the trick. 10" paper bass is the smallest paper bass size that has enough damping to work without huge filtering effort. Just because you can run them near crossoverless, doesn't mean you should though.
Big bass and small tweeter has a characteristic sound and dispersion. It is what it is really! Wharfedale Melton, Dynaco A25, SEAS A26 and DeVore Orangutan.
Do you mean in a "bad" way and does it apply to 8" ?
I thought 8+1 config can be quite neutral as its also done in some of the well know studio monitors like Mackie HR824 and Behringer 2031 [ this one could be love/hate category
]Dr Geddes polar map software has 2031A included and its polar response looks nice for 8+1
I have read comments like 8" is the best size for voice reproduction etc...
It was interesting what troystg said about 10" bass plus tweeter, it SOUNDED NICE!
What's wrong with that? Suggests to me that it's got something right! McIntosh used cone tweeters too.
I LOVE this combination of 8" bass plus tweeter. Preferably with a KLH or AR style cone tweeter.
For a two way, it probably has the most balanced sound of good bass and good high end. The little 5" bass jobbies like the LS3/5A or Jeff Bagby's continuum can sound nice on midrange if you don't miss some thumping bass, but this is a sweet combination. I have been adjusting voicing this afternoon, and it's really just the job! One of my better filters, IMO.
What's wrong with that? Suggests to me that it's got something right! McIntosh used cone tweeters too.
I LOVE this combination of 8" bass plus tweeter. Preferably with a KLH or AR style cone tweeter.
For a two way, it probably has the most balanced sound of good bass and good high end. The little 5" bass jobbies like the LS3/5A or Jeff Bagby's continuum can sound nice on midrange if you don't miss some thumping bass, but this is a sweet combination. I have been adjusting voicing this afternoon, and it's really just the job! One of my better filters, IMO.
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That's been my experience. 10" is even better but in my admittedly limited experience (10" Tannoy studio monitors), you lose a bit of detail and air at the top end because of the large (1 1/2"?) tweeter they use.
I've only ever owned 2-way speakers, so I'd like to build a pair of 3-ways to see if crossing from something like a 6" mid to a 10" woofer at around 400Hz would give the same great midrange as the 10" Tannoys but with better high frequencies because of the smaller tweeter I'd be able to use.
Jeff Bagby said he thinks it has the edge over other acoustic slopes but he said getting the frequency response right is far more important.
Anybody tried 8"+1 as nearfield ? [ ~3ft listening distance ]
I am curious to try that...
Also keen to once compare a 8" and 6.5-7" woofer based speakers (using woofer from same family to rule out other differences as much as possible eg U18 and U22) and same tweeter...
Basically to know how much difference does it really make ....
[ ~3ft listening distance ]I am curious to try that...
Also keen to once compare a 8" and 6.5-7" woofer based speakers (using woofer from same family to rule out other differences as much as possible eg U18 and U22) and same tweeter...
Basically to know how much difference does it really make ....
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