Thanks guys, interesting infos; it seems that some manufacturers do not worry to cut 8" or even larger woofers higher than 1.8/2kHz...
I took my decision: I will cut the tweeter close to 1.5kHz, not lower, and third order electrical, not lower and certainly not higher_but depending of the mid's combined phase tracking.
I took my decision: I will cut the tweeter close to 1.5kHz, not lower, and third order electrical, not lower and certainly not higher_but depending of the mid's combined phase tracking.
If you get a 90deg waveguide for the tweeter you could cross at around 1.7k.
It'll align the voice coils better too.
I'd go active with 24dB L-R filters.
It'll align the voice coils better too.
I'd go active with 24dB L-R filters.
Always been interested in big two way designs not many drivers out there suitable for two way systems these days I guess.
I own a pair of SA3s something about a good two way design 🙂
I own a pair of SA3s something about a good two way design 🙂
I did one last year using SB Acoustics
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231481-sb-acoustics-tw29r-sb23nrxs4.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231481-sb-acoustics-tw29r-sb23nrxs4.html
There was once a DIY kit by Dynaudio called Aries. It used the 20W75 woofer and the D260 dome tweeter. I once bougth the drivers used for this kit and even built a compact closed box for them about four years ago. But those boxes heve never been "populated".
I am currently tinkering with some special active crossover topology that has slightly lower group delay than an LR 2 and whose slopes are 2nd order on the lowpass and 3rd order on the highpass. Its lobing behaviour is a bit worse than LR2 but better than Butterworth.
The 3rd order higpass function can be achieved acoustically more easily than the LR2 for instance.
I will try this crossover with these drivers in said box and will go for a crossover frequency around 1.8 kHz . Lets see how it turns out.
Regards
Charles
I am currently tinkering with some special active crossover topology that has slightly lower group delay than an LR 2 and whose slopes are 2nd order on the lowpass and 3rd order on the highpass. Its lobing behaviour is a bit worse than LR2 but better than Butterworth.
The 3rd order higpass function can be achieved acoustically more easily than the LR2 for instance.
I will try this crossover with these drivers in said box and will go for a crossover frequency around 1.8 kHz . Lets see how it turns out.
Regards
Charles
I built one with Vifa 21WO39 and SEAS 27TDC. Kind of a poor mans Audionote or poor mans Dynaudio. Very listenable.
This one is quite good, I built it myself with some help from Salas:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/198369-tired2way-speaker-building.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/198369-tired2way-speaker-building.html
1976 - Yamaha NS500
10'' paper and AlNiCo and 1 1/4'' beryllium dome (Fs 850 Hz), crossed at 1.8 kHz 12 dB/oct.
91 dB/W/m, 8 Ohm
10'' paper and AlNiCo and 1 1/4'' beryllium dome (Fs 850 Hz), crossed at 1.8 kHz 12 dB/oct.
91 dB/W/m, 8 Ohm
Last edited:
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Joined 2003
Old Infinity RSA used a 12" woofer and planar tweeter. It was a bit lacking in the midrange to say the least, the next model up RSB used the same drivers in a 3-way with dedicated mid.
8" two way can be very good, however when most people are using subwoofers these days you can opt for a smaller midwoofer to keep size down.
I've built two 8" two way systems myself, one is using Peerless HDS 810921 tweeter and Peerless HDS 830884, crossover about 1.6khz. The other using Silver flute 8" and Seas dome tweeter, crossover about 2kHz. Both are great speakers, and when not using a subwoofer you will really be happy you chose a woofer larger than 6.5".
8" two way can be very good, however when most people are using subwoofers these days you can opt for a smaller midwoofer to keep size down.
I've built two 8" two way systems myself, one is using Peerless HDS 810921 tweeter and Peerless HDS 830884, crossover about 1.6khz. The other using Silver flute 8" and Seas dome tweeter, crossover about 2kHz. Both are great speakers, and when not using a subwoofer you will really be happy you chose a woofer larger than 6.5".
Hi,
If building a classic 8" + 1" tweeter two way with BBC
style cabinets I pretty much know exactly what I'd use.
This for definite :
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
And probably this :
H0881-06 27TFFC
rgds, sreten.
If building a classic 8" + 1" tweeter two way with BBC
style cabinets I pretty much know exactly what I'd use.
This for definite :
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
And probably this :
H0881-06 27TFFC
rgds, sreten.
Or this one H1471-08 CA22RNY it has a bit smoother frequency response and better linear coil travel capabilities.
Regards
/Göran
Regards
/Göran
Troels Gravesen, Denmark DIY Loudspeakers website:
"BestSpeaker I ever made.. "due to the large midrange driver, 8", and the large wave-guided 34 mm dome tweeter."
"Some people question my statement that the DTQWT is the best speaker I've ever made because I've made quite a few speakers since then and how can I still hold this opinion despite Jenzen D, etc.? Well, the DTQWTs can do things none of the other speakers can do in terms of overall dynamics due to efficiency, mid-tweeter integration and because they don't have a crossover in the critical midrange. These are the three main features. The DTQWTs can play a piano, an oboe, a flute and a saxophone louder than any of the other speakers partly due to the large midrange driver, 8", and the large wave-guided 34 mm dome tweeter. Size matters and regardless of the quality of a 5-6" midrange driver there are limits to how loud they can play. The Jenzens all have less dynamic head-room due to these limitations although satisfactory for most applications (average living room size). The DTQWTs can be played to satisfatory levels with my 45 watts SET amps, something none of the other speakers can do and my 6C33 valves sounds better than my solid state amps. And some mistakenly think the DTQWT are only suited for low-wattage valve amps because they were developed for this, but any good amp can be used with the DTQWTs, they may just not sound as good as they could if you had a good triode amp. There are reasons people bother nurturing valve amps as some require regular service, but we don't get it all for nothing. So, the DTQWTs are still my best speakers regardless of cost and specific areas where some of the others may excel. All speakers are compromises and fortunately the amount of speaker designs seems unendless and there should be one for your taste too."
One of our favorite speakers because it "gets vocals right" is a 2-way using a Tang Band W8-1808 without the whizzer cone in a 4 cuft MLTL, and a SP29RDCN dome tweeter passively crossed LR4 at 1,400. I have been using this speaker with an old PC to get an education on digital crossovers, and have found digital time alignement a noticable improvement over passive xover. Active xovers can optimize the 8" + 1" union, with or without support woofers.
"BestSpeaker I ever made.. "due to the large midrange driver, 8", and the large wave-guided 34 mm dome tweeter."
"Some people question my statement that the DTQWT is the best speaker I've ever made because I've made quite a few speakers since then and how can I still hold this opinion despite Jenzen D, etc.? Well, the DTQWTs can do things none of the other speakers can do in terms of overall dynamics due to efficiency, mid-tweeter integration and because they don't have a crossover in the critical midrange. These are the three main features. The DTQWTs can play a piano, an oboe, a flute and a saxophone louder than any of the other speakers partly due to the large midrange driver, 8", and the large wave-guided 34 mm dome tweeter. Size matters and regardless of the quality of a 5-6" midrange driver there are limits to how loud they can play. The Jenzens all have less dynamic head-room due to these limitations although satisfactory for most applications (average living room size). The DTQWTs can be played to satisfatory levels with my 45 watts SET amps, something none of the other speakers can do and my 6C33 valves sounds better than my solid state amps. And some mistakenly think the DTQWT are only suited for low-wattage valve amps because they were developed for this, but any good amp can be used with the DTQWTs, they may just not sound as good as they could if you had a good triode amp. There are reasons people bother nurturing valve amps as some require regular service, but we don't get it all for nothing. So, the DTQWTs are still my best speakers regardless of cost and specific areas where some of the others may excel. All speakers are compromises and fortunately the amount of speaker designs seems unendless and there should be one for your taste too."
One of our favorite speakers because it "gets vocals right" is a 2-way using a Tang Band W8-1808 without the whizzer cone in a 4 cuft MLTL, and a SP29RDCN dome tweeter passively crossed LR4 at 1,400. I have been using this speaker with an old PC to get an education on digital crossovers, and have found digital time alignement a noticable improvement over passive xover. Active xovers can optimize the 8" + 1" union, with or without support woofers.
Attachments
after looking at most reviews and most highly praised speaker like PSI, the best 2 way monitors all seem to use not bigger driver then 6 1/2 inch or 7 inch cross around 2khz to 3 khz, something you cant do with a 8 inch.
AES Lambda Acoustics is "close" to shipping a few different 8" speakers including the:
TD8M-8
Fs: 76hz
Qms: 7.9
Vas: 11.3L
Cms: .22mm/N
Mms: 20g
Rms: 1.2kg/s
Xmax: 4mm
Sd: 190sqcm
Qes: .27
Re: 6.7ohm
Le: .15mH
Z: 8ohm
Bl: 15.5Tm
PE: 300W
Qts: .26
1WSPL: 94.7dB
2.8V: 95.5dB
A TD8X will also be available later.
There will be a Dipole 8 using the cloth surround which will have decent efficiency.
With Fs = 76Hz this is a true midrange and not a midbass. To me, midbass typically have a ~40-50Hz Fs and reach 80-100Hz in a sealed box
WINISD for TD8M:
In a 0.1 cuft ported box with Qtc=0.7, it is -3db at 113Hz.
In a 0.065 cuft sealed box with Qtc=0.7, it is -3db at 215Hz.
TD8M-8
Fs: 76hz
Qms: 7.9
Vas: 11.3L
Cms: .22mm/N
Mms: 20g
Rms: 1.2kg/s
Xmax: 4mm
Sd: 190sqcm
Qes: .27
Re: 6.7ohm
Le: .15mH
Z: 8ohm
Bl: 15.5Tm
PE: 300W
Qts: .26
1WSPL: 94.7dB
2.8V: 95.5dB
A TD8X will also be available later.
There will be a Dipole 8 using the cloth surround which will have decent efficiency.
With Fs = 76Hz this is a true midrange and not a midbass. To me, midbass typically have a ~40-50Hz Fs and reach 80-100Hz in a sealed box
WINISD for TD8M:
In a 0.1 cuft ported box with Qtc=0.7, it is -3db at 113Hz.
In a 0.065 cuft sealed box with Qtc=0.7, it is -3db at 215Hz.
How close is "close?" John has been talking about the TD8 for like 2 years now it seems.
That TD8M could be my 2118 killer I have been looking for to use in my car.
That TD8M could be my 2118 killer I have been looking for to use in my car.
?????
A21-M | PSIAudio
Another famous example of a professional monitor:
http://meyersound.com/sites/default/files/hd-1_ds.pdf
Regards
Charles
Mr Gravesen is absolutely right that 8'' is a minimum for the realistically sounding midrange.
I believe that the main reason for this is that the musical midrange is NOT in the 300-3000 Hz band as it is commonly misunderstood. It is in the 160-1600 Hz frequency band . In the light of this it's no wonder that for the best results one needs a midrange driver that is optimized for this frequency band - below 1600 Hz. And no crossover in this band.
Vocal goes 160-3000Hz. If we cannot get all band perfect, we choose range that is more important to our taste.
"Plug and play and wish for luck" is not my method. There is no formula or theory that says 8" is minimum.
With luck, if you use common 8" woofer, you will want to cross lower than usual. It means no crossover in critical midrange (which will be handled mostly by tweeter). And especially if you cannot rely on your crossover accuracy, this is the only way to go. But that's not science.
"Plug and play and wish for luck" is not my method. There is no formula or theory that says 8" is minimum.
With luck, if you use common 8" woofer, you will want to cross lower than usual. It means no crossover in critical midrange (which will be handled mostly by tweeter). And especially if you cannot rely on your crossover accuracy, this is the only way to go. But that's not science.
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