See this thread at Seaton Sound Discussion Forum.
UFW-12HR from AV123 FIX - Seaton Sound Discussion Forum
I added Black Hole 5 damping material available here.
UFW-12 Black Hole 5 Cabinet Upgrade Kit
UFW-12HR from AV123 FIX - Seaton Sound Discussion Forum
I added Black Hole 5 damping material available here.
UFW-12 Black Hole 5 Cabinet Upgrade Kit
Quick Karlson guidance needed
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8316/karlsonetteib7.png
the 'moveable plywood damper bar' restricts air flow into the top half of the box right?
or something else?
and how does a person 'tune' the port/vent in the front baffle?
any other advice for a quick and oddball karlson build today appreciated.
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8316/karlsonetteib7.png
the 'moveable plywood damper bar' restricts air flow into the top half of the box right?
or something else?
and how does a person 'tune' the port/vent in the front baffle?
any other advice for a quick and oddball karlson build today appreciated.
for fine tuning you could slightly restrict some of the slot port area - the Karlsonette was the first Karlson 12 and made its show debut in the fall of 1954. It sounds pretty darn good with a Fostex FE206EN and I prefer that combo to my Klipschorns (sorry PWK..)
the damping bar probably has some dynamic effects upon air flow.
Here's the small single impedance impedance effects- - the driver in that test is a weak Eminence Beta 12CX with qts near 0.6 IIRC
later Karlson 12s used distributive slit vents. The slit vents distort on sine but sound "quick" with music transients.
some recent work has been done on 8 inch couplers which run ~12.5" to 13.5" wide, 28" tall and ~12-14" deep. One gentleman built a nice coupler with elliptical reflector for the FE166EN (stock)
Here are some pictures the new high aspect K-coupler 6.5 (HAK6.5) built by Marinus-
A little "SK8" (13.5" wide by ~20.5" tall by ~13" deep) 8 inch coupler was built for me by John Lapaire and I enjoyed it through the winter holidays with FE206EN
John recently built a 28"x13.5"x~14" rough test coupler which ran in two versions - one with a cupped reflector and vent like the Karlsonette, then a version with t-line path - it was well liked by John and his wife for good vocals and dynamics. That's John's K15 below the test coupler. The fullrange K is preferred in some ways.
JL's comments
"Hi Freddy,
These two versions are very close in sound, as far as I can figure. *I think the energy below 50hz is too far down in level to matter much, and the little bit of smoothness improvement in the TL at 500hz is for the good, but there's too much time between listening to the two versions to be able to really be sure it's audible. *This is better balanced than the other small K types we've done, and overall impression is just a little light on bass.
Side view shows TL path in marker on the side panel.
In WT3, the green trace is the HAK, blue is TL.
IN RTA, the green is the HAK, yellow is TL.
John"
here's what the front chamber looked like when it was run with the Karlsonette style vent
Here's the outline of the t-line/tapped path
For 2-way I suggest using a Karlson slotted waveguide instead of a horn - the old Transylvania Power Company "THE TUBE" is superior in its range to a constant directivity waveguide for this use
the damping bar probably has some dynamic effects upon air flow.
Here's the small single impedance impedance effects- - the driver in that test is a weak Eminence Beta 12CX with qts near 0.6 IIRC
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
later Karlson 12s used distributive slit vents. The slit vents distort on sine but sound "quick" with music transients.
some recent work has been done on 8 inch couplers which run ~12.5" to 13.5" wide, 28" tall and ~12-14" deep. One gentleman built a nice coupler with elliptical reflector for the FE166EN (stock)
Here are some pictures the new high aspect K-coupler 6.5 (HAK6.5) built by Marinus-
A little "SK8" (13.5" wide by ~20.5" tall by ~13" deep) 8 inch coupler was built for me by John Lapaire and I enjoyed it through the winter holidays with FE206EN
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
John recently built a 28"x13.5"x~14" rough test coupler which ran in two versions - one with a cupped reflector and vent like the Karlsonette, then a version with t-line path - it was well liked by John and his wife for good vocals and dynamics. That's John's K15 below the test coupler. The fullrange K is preferred in some ways.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
JL's comments
"Hi Freddy,
These two versions are very close in sound, as far as I can figure. *I think the energy below 50hz is too far down in level to matter much, and the little bit of smoothness improvement in the TL at 500hz is for the good, but there's too much time between listening to the two versions to be able to really be sure it's audible. *This is better balanced than the other small K types we've done, and overall impression is just a little light on bass.
Side view shows TL path in marker on the side panel.
In WT3, the green trace is the HAK, blue is TL.
IN RTA, the green is the HAK, yellow is TL.
John"
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
here's what the front chamber looked like when it was run with the Karlsonette style vent
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's the outline of the t-line/tapped path
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
For 2-way I suggest using a Karlson slotted waveguide instead of a horn - the old Transylvania Power Company "THE TUBE" is superior in its range to a constant directivity waveguide for this use
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Why so many subwoofer designs?
ive loved bass, sub-bass for 25 years, every week there is a new design !
is there a time tested and proven design that just works?
lots of great drivers/subwoofers available these days,
and great amps
and great x overs.
in my opinion, a 'good' subwoofer should reproduce the original tone, tones, dynamics, frequencies, transients as the original source
(stand up bass guitar, kick drum, 5 string bass, keyboard)
and only amplify those sounds.
*if* thats what a subwoofer is supposed to do, there must be many designs already available time tested by 1000s that work well.
what are they?
and why bother messing with box calc software, wood and glue if what we want already exists?
ive loved bass, sub-bass for 25 years, every week there is a new design !
is there a time tested and proven design that just works?
lots of great drivers/subwoofers available these days,
and great amps
and great x overs.
in my opinion, a 'good' subwoofer should reproduce the original tone, tones, dynamics, frequencies, transients as the original source
(stand up bass guitar, kick drum, 5 string bass, keyboard)
and only amplify those sounds.
*if* thats what a subwoofer is supposed to do, there must be many designs already available time tested by 1000s that work well.
what are they?
and why bother messing with box calc software, wood and glue if what we want already exists?
You post about music but its more about HT experience these days for most people (not talking about this forums members). Movies have content down below 10Hz. If you do not care about movies then have a much, much easier time having a quality subwoofer system just for music.
Not back to the general discussion....
There are many designs because there are many, many different requirements.
There is not one design that is the perfect solution. Some times budget requirements, room requirements, Amp/SPL requirements. Dictate the design.
Unlimited budget dictates something like...
8 LMS5400 in 4 dual sealed box designs with 4000Watts to each driver or if there is room flexibility some will build an IB designs (like sealed designs but without the HUGE power requirements).
Budget constraints, max SPL require Horn designs. No other design will over the clean Max SPL a horn design can.
Do not like the LARGE horn boxes, then how about a 11 cuft ported box, Great SPL to the tuning point a fraction of the amp power a similar sealed design requires.
What you need to do is list all your requirements then figure out the best design for those requirements.
I have sealed LMS5400, I have ported TC2000s, I have IB array with Q18s, Im building bandpass design next and then a MONSTER horn design tuned too 11Hz.....DIY is all about exploring all possibilities.
Also, you post what already exists?? A SVS PB13 subwoofer goes for $1600. It cost my $1600 for an IB subwoofer system that is equal to owning 6 PB13s. DIY allows us to spend a fraction of the $$$ someone else does in buying comercial solutions.
There is a $150 Horn design (F20 on AVSForums using the MFW-15 driver). There is NOT a comercial design out there even under $1K has that sort of clean output at 20Hz.
DIY subwoofers rule the cost/performance arena period.
Not back to the general discussion....
There are many designs because there are many, many different requirements.
There is not one design that is the perfect solution. Some times budget requirements, room requirements, Amp/SPL requirements. Dictate the design.
Unlimited budget dictates something like...
8 LMS5400 in 4 dual sealed box designs with 4000Watts to each driver or if there is room flexibility some will build an IB designs (like sealed designs but without the HUGE power requirements).
Budget constraints, max SPL require Horn designs. No other design will over the clean Max SPL a horn design can.
Do not like the LARGE horn boxes, then how about a 11 cuft ported box, Great SPL to the tuning point a fraction of the amp power a similar sealed design requires.
What you need to do is list all your requirements then figure out the best design for those requirements.
I have sealed LMS5400, I have ported TC2000s, I have IB array with Q18s, Im building bandpass design next and then a MONSTER horn design tuned too 11Hz.....DIY is all about exploring all possibilities.
Also, you post what already exists?? A SVS PB13 subwoofer goes for $1600. It cost my $1600 for an IB subwoofer system that is equal to owning 6 PB13s. DIY allows us to spend a fraction of the $$$ someone else does in buying comercial solutions.
There is a $150 Horn design (F20 on AVSForums using the MFW-15 driver). There is NOT a comercial design out there even under $1K has that sort of clean output at 20Hz.
DIY subwoofers rule the cost/performance arena period.
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Exactly. Speakers are a personal thing, for the most part. Once you reach a certain level of quality, the minute differences are what keep people interested in experimentation.
If someone ever invented a "perfect" speaker, we'd just tear it apart because it sounded sterile, or lacked dynamics. "I don't know why, but I just can't tap my foot when I'm listening to these. Maybe, if I change the value of this coil...."
This is actually very true. We are here because we want something individual. I could easily build a Frugal Horn, but I like to play around with other designs. Same reason why I'm working on a corner standing iPod dock, because I want something tailor made.
yes, i can see this ^ being a great reason, a small 8" sub could work well in a small room, but not optimal in a stadium.
even so, if you were doing several small rooms, and several stadiums, wouldn't you use the same subwoofer design for each small room and the same sub for each stadium ?
if it works, it works.
not me, always was, always will be about the music......
im never going to spend my hard earned money on drivers amps and plywood, and my time building something so i can hear/feel a dinosaur footstep or a 16hz cannon shot,
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yes, i can see this ^ being a great reason, a small 8" sub could work well in a small room, but not optimal in a stadium.
even so, if you were doing several small rooms, and several stadiums, wouldn't you use the same subwoofer design for each small room and the same sub for each stadium ?
if it works, it works.
However if you have a stadium you may use a large transmission line. However if its your front room you may have to compromise and stick it in a base reflex as it may be smaller. If you have a bit more time and skill, you may want to do a double base reflex. This is how I see it anyway(although I'm still learning so may be wrong)
Hi there 60n: note that the lowest note playable on a piano is 28.2 hz, most bass instriments play down to 31hz and if you listen to classical music with organ, you will need to reach down to 16hz in some cases. So if you want accurate bass response for music listening, be prepared to find better subwoffers. ...regards, Michael
........a 28.2 hz sub is good
Not based on your stated performance goals, it will need to be at least ~0.641x 28.2 = ~18.08 Hz Fb and somewhat lower for a no compromise horn solution plus the charts I have put the piano's lowest note at 27.5 Hz, so a little lower still.
GM
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