I use crossovers. Do you happen to?
Who said anything about 109dB at 200Hz but certain complainers? Were you complainers planning a full range using a midrange driver? No one with any sense would do such a thing except for very low SPL applications where it could apply.
Using a sensible crossover (Linkwitz 2nd order set for 200Hz) and given the Q of the driver I would expect about 99.7dB at 200Hz, minus about 7.3dB from nominal system output at the stated goal of 107dB. Of course the midrange was always to be used in a system with a crossover and not stand alone full range. Maybe that was not clear to some. With all that mouse clicking did some forget to include the effects of driver Q and crossover attenuation of frequency versus SPL requirements and results? For the goal of the 107dB output system this driver need make but 99.7dB at 200Hz and is within very acceptable limits for many of the drivers shown in this thread. End of story as far as these "theoretical" excursion limits repeatedly harped on without cause.
So now I would suppose the mouse clickers will say there will be a "theoretical" dip in the response because of driver Q of the midrange. That is so easy to fix. Simply raise the crossover of the woofer very slightly to like 215Hz and the dip is gone yet phase response is still within the acceptable range of +/-20 degrees. All is still good and the "theoretical" response is flattened.
So we see all these nice midranges when used sensibly with a crossover will work just fine in a 107dB system. There is no concern whatsoever of exceeding Xmax when a crossover is used which is the only way a midrange would normally become part of a system. There are midranges found by good people that will even exceed 107dB crossed over at 200Hz and not exceed the imagined Xmax boundary. Xmax is a value but the acoustic effect is not nearly so hard fast as has been discussed.
Another thing worth noting is even if the lower frequencies of the midrange are becoming more distorted the midrange is attenuated by 7.3dB from the nominal at 200Hz and therefore the distortion added by the midrange is also attenuated by that amount. As example 8%THD becomes less than 2%THD with the attenuation included further reducing the effects of the imagined Xmax boundary.
Please don't let all this negativity and others complete lack of knowledge keep all the rest of us from locating MORE
very decent midrange drivers. This recent one with the 50 watt voice coil is great because we know the voice coil will likely never be damaged in the 107dB peak output system. 107dB is far louder than most speakers for home use will play without smoking and here are a bunch of midranges which allow just that and do not cost an arm and a leg. Even better, a modest 100 watt amplifier will take this to the party level and still be in a small box when used as a satellite with a sub (Maybe a BIG sub to keep up- haha) Used with a decently efficient tweeter a LOUD system is within easy reach of many DIYer's.
Very cool
Keep those new drivers coming! Many want the chance to have an efficient system and all the good peoples work really helps!
Who said anything about 109dB at 200Hz but certain complainers? Were you complainers planning a full range using a midrange driver? No one with any sense would do such a thing except for very low SPL applications where it could apply.
Using a sensible crossover (Linkwitz 2nd order set for 200Hz) and given the Q of the driver I would expect about 99.7dB at 200Hz, minus about 7.3dB from nominal system output at the stated goal of 107dB. Of course the midrange was always to be used in a system with a crossover and not stand alone full range. Maybe that was not clear to some. With all that mouse clicking did some forget to include the effects of driver Q and crossover attenuation of frequency versus SPL requirements and results? For the goal of the 107dB output system this driver need make but 99.7dB at 200Hz and is within very acceptable limits for many of the drivers shown in this thread. End of story as far as these "theoretical" excursion limits repeatedly harped on without cause.
So now I would suppose the mouse clickers will say there will be a "theoretical" dip in the response because of driver Q of the midrange. That is so easy to fix. Simply raise the crossover of the woofer very slightly to like 215Hz and the dip is gone yet phase response is still within the acceptable range of +/-20 degrees. All is still good and the "theoretical" response is flattened.
So we see all these nice midranges when used sensibly with a crossover will work just fine in a 107dB system. There is no concern whatsoever of exceeding Xmax when a crossover is used which is the only way a midrange would normally become part of a system. There are midranges found by good people that will even exceed 107dB crossed over at 200Hz and not exceed the imagined Xmax boundary. Xmax is a value but the acoustic effect is not nearly so hard fast as has been discussed.
Another thing worth noting is even if the lower frequencies of the midrange are becoming more distorted the midrange is attenuated by 7.3dB from the nominal at 200Hz and therefore the distortion added by the midrange is also attenuated by that amount. As example 8%THD becomes less than 2%THD with the attenuation included further reducing the effects of the imagined Xmax boundary.
Please don't let all this negativity and others complete lack of knowledge keep all the rest of us from locating MORE
very decent midrange drivers. This recent one with the 50 watt voice coil is great because we know the voice coil will likely never be damaged in the 107dB peak output system. 107dB is far louder than most speakers for home use will play without smoking and here are a bunch of midranges which allow just that and do not cost an arm and a leg. Even better, a modest 100 watt amplifier will take this to the party level and still be in a small box when used as a satellite with a sub (Maybe a BIG sub to keep up- haha) Used with a decently efficient tweeter a LOUD system is within easy reach of many DIYer's.Very cool
Keep those new drivers coming! Many want the chance to have an efficient system and all the good peoples work really helps!
This is great- we finally agree on something.
It has always been 107dB with an Fs below 100Hz and a crossover not really mentioned but assumed by many. 200Hz was always the unmentioned thought in my mind as 200Hz is where it is clear the direction of the source can become apparent. There were a lot of assumptions by the naysayers that had nothing to do with the matters of the thread. But the key point now is with a Linkwitz-Rieley 2nd order crossover 200Hz becomes completely practical to 107dB system output. Always the plan and never a moving target exactly as stated in post #1. The naysayers were the creators of the moving targets and vast assumptions and lots of off track writing not adding to finding usable drivers.
Addition of usable drivers is always welcome in this thread! Please add any found!
It has always been 107dB with an Fs below 100Hz and a crossover not really mentioned but assumed by many. 200Hz was always the unmentioned thought in my mind as 200Hz is where it is clear the direction of the source can become apparent. There were a lot of assumptions by the naysayers that had nothing to do with the matters of the thread. But the key point now is with a Linkwitz-Rieley 2nd order crossover 200Hz becomes completely practical to 107dB system output. Always the plan and never a moving target exactly as stated in post #1. The naysayers were the creators of the moving targets and vast assumptions and lots of off track writing not adding to finding usable drivers.
Addition of usable drivers is always welcome in this thread! Please add any found!
It's a boy!
See and read it. Will post as it is perfected.
The blue line is no dust cap. I do not care for the dust cap one or the dust cap chosen so am am supplying a different dust cap. About as good as a mid as one could ask for.
4.5" with 1 inch VC and 20oz magnet- 2 grams and 98dB? Am checking.
See and read it. Will post as it is perfected.
The blue line is no dust cap. I do not care for the dust cap one or the dust cap chosen so am am supplying a different dust cap. About as good as a mid as one could ask for.
4.5" with 1 inch VC and 20oz magnet- 2 grams and 98dB? Am checking.
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Hi,
Where did this statement come from:-
200Hz was always the unmentioned thought in my mind as 200Hz is where it is clear the direction of the source can become apparent.
In the experiments I did 100% of the listening panel could identify the location of a sub-woofer at 120Hz, we had to reduce the frequency to 80Hz at which point only one of the panel identified the location. (Which was not statistically significant) The panel was made up of HiFi dealers and distributors so they were to some extent trained listeners. I guess untrained listeners may find this more difficult.
This driver would be a good midrange but I don't think it will make a good satellite speaker, clearly it will work but there will be significant risk of localisation of the sub woofer. A good satellite speaker needs a response down to 60 to 70Hz so that the crossover to the sub-woofer can be controlled without any risk of localisation of the sub-woofer.
If you want to use it you can mitigate this problem to some extent by placing the sub-woofer close to the front speakers, however this is often not the place in the room to achieve the smoothest response. Multiple sub woofers would also help and if you want to achieve 107dB you will probably need multiple subs just to move enough air unless they are massive.
I guess if you don't hear the localisation though its not a problem, so if the statement is based on your personal experience then no worries. If not then I would treat it with suspicion as it certainly didn't match my experimental results.
Regards,
Andrew
Where did this statement come from:-
200Hz was always the unmentioned thought in my mind as 200Hz is where it is clear the direction of the source can become apparent.
In the experiments I did 100% of the listening panel could identify the location of a sub-woofer at 120Hz, we had to reduce the frequency to 80Hz at which point only one of the panel identified the location. (Which was not statistically significant) The panel was made up of HiFi dealers and distributors so they were to some extent trained listeners. I guess untrained listeners may find this more difficult.
This driver would be a good midrange but I don't think it will make a good satellite speaker, clearly it will work but there will be significant risk of localisation of the sub woofer. A good satellite speaker needs a response down to 60 to 70Hz so that the crossover to the sub-woofer can be controlled without any risk of localisation of the sub-woofer.
If you want to use it you can mitigate this problem to some extent by placing the sub-woofer close to the front speakers, however this is often not the place in the room to achieve the smoothest response. Multiple sub woofers would also help and if you want to achieve 107dB you will probably need multiple subs just to move enough air unless they are massive.
I guess if you don't hear the localisation though its not a problem, so if the statement is based on your personal experience then no worries. If not then I would treat it with suspicion as it certainly didn't match my experimental results.
Regards,
Andrew
I meant it is inarguable directionality is occurring by 200Hz. No limit was intended to be implied.
Many have suggested raising the crossover to 400Hz or some frequency higher than 200Hz. Never have liked that and always wish for lower than 200Hz but using a 4.5" midrange less than 200Hz might be a stretch. Also 400Hz means there is midrange coming from the midrange and midrange decidedly coming from the woofer. Two apparent sources- yuk! Further, for the large woofers tested here none really work well high enough (800Hz) to support use with a 400Hz crossover. Just really want to get out of the woofer at a more ideal frequency and still be able to match to a tweeter. Many have suggested for a lower crossover like 90Hz use a 6.5" instead and must admit agreement and do in other systems.
In your subwoofer testing what was the cutoff slope for the low pass filter on the subwoofer? Did you use a FIR filter for testing? What amount of THD? If THD is over 3% second harmonic then there is a lot of 160Hz in the 80Hz output, as example, giving away the woofers location. Just questions please. Not accusing anyone of anything. Really curious actually on the details of your testing.
Many have suggested raising the crossover to 400Hz or some frequency higher than 200Hz. Never have liked that and always wish for lower than 200Hz but using a 4.5" midrange less than 200Hz might be a stretch. Also 400Hz means there is midrange coming from the midrange and midrange decidedly coming from the woofer. Two apparent sources- yuk! Further, for the large woofers tested here none really work well high enough (800Hz) to support use with a 400Hz crossover. Just really want to get out of the woofer at a more ideal frequency and still be able to match to a tweeter. Many have suggested for a lower crossover like 90Hz use a 6.5" instead and must admit agreement and do in other systems.
In your subwoofer testing what was the cutoff slope for the low pass filter on the subwoofer? Did you use a FIR filter for testing? What amount of THD? If THD is over 3% second harmonic then there is a lot of 160Hz in the 80Hz output, as example, giving away the woofers location. Just questions please. Not accusing anyone of anything. Really curious actually on the details of your testing.
Take a look at this Tang Band driver. I was looking for a 4" wide band driver that was efficient but reasonably priced.
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_241_309&products_id=8802
This was the best i could do. its not great. but 89db 2mm xmax and its pretty flat
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_241_309&products_id=8802
This was the best i could do. its not great. but 89db 2mm xmax and its pretty flat
You did good finding a driver in today's power hungry environment. The difference between 89dB and 95dB is the difference between 200 watts and 50 watts. Not that there is a 95dB speaker yet. 94dB for sure and with the right dust cap maybe 95dB. Xmax at distortion of 10% THD is predicted to be over 1.5mm, which is pretty fantastic for a mid.
Am looking forward to the sample arrival!
Am looking forward to the sample arrival!
Hi,
You may have identified the difference in testing through your questions.
The crossover had no effect as we were testing with pure tones.
Distortion was not a problem as speaker was operating well within its operating region.
Also it was a sealed box so no chuffing.
But we didn't do the test with music and obviously with a single tone there was nothing coming from the sat speaker.
The experiment was to determine the point at which we could be certain we would not have localisation as the design was for a Hi End sub sat system. Efficiency was not the main consideration so we ended up with about an 83dB design at 1W @ 1M.
Clearly your requirements are different.
I hope it works out well and I agree you would struggle to achieve 94dB any lower than 200Hz. I am supprised you can get there at all.
Regards,
Andrew
You may have identified the difference in testing through your questions.
The crossover had no effect as we were testing with pure tones.
Distortion was not a problem as speaker was operating well within its operating region.
Also it was a sealed box so no chuffing.
But we didn't do the test with music and obviously with a single tone there was nothing coming from the sat speaker.
The experiment was to determine the point at which we could be certain we would not have localisation as the design was for a Hi End sub sat system. Efficiency was not the main consideration so we ended up with about an 83dB design at 1W @ 1M.
Clearly your requirements are different.
I hope it works out well and I agree you would struggle to achieve 94dB any lower than 200Hz. I am supprised you can get there at all.
Regards,
Andrew
Try the w4-655
I use it in a 8l bassreflex box, tuning-frequency is 50Hz. I simply love it!
doug20- refer to the post about using a crossover. This clearly shows a 200Hz crossover will work fine in a system playing to 107dB and this particular 4.5" driver will play even louder in a system as described.
"laws of physics can not be broken"- has become a cliche' meaning the writer of such a phrase has no real understanding of the subject matter as this utterance simply shows ignorance and lack of understanding. I believe any post with this phrase should be summarily deleted or ignored. Maybe even this one.
"laws of physics can not be broken"- has become a cliche' meaning the writer of such a phrase has no real understanding of the subject matter as this utterance simply shows ignorance and lack of understanding. I believe any post with this phrase should be summarily deleted or ignored. Maybe even this one.
lol, moving targets, a design that has limited application and your constant insults to others. You are the best DIY speaker builder ever .....only if you actually ever built a documented speaker then we would actually have some substance from you but still you are a black hole in terms of DIY.
You moved your target up because you know the truth from many others posted it. In the end everything you do will be because you have been corrected so many times. Your first post "Am searching for the 4" (3.5"-5") that will produce about 107dB or more on less than 50 watts from somewhere near 100Hz up to 3kHz "....as I said MOVING TARGET. Do not worry there are real experts (not me) on this forum that will continue to guide you throughout your misguided thought process.
Sure it may work but in terms real SPL performance it will suck. you might as well just go with a low SPL full range driver build and ignore real dynamics with low distortion. As I posted before limited application. I wasnt going to comment on your misguided opinion about woofers not playing to 400Hz.
.....only if you actually ever built a documented speaker then we would actually have some substance from you but still you are a black hole in terms of DIY.You moved your target up because you know the truth from many others posted it. In the end everything you do will be because you have been corrected so many times. Your first post "Am searching for the 4" (3.5"-5") that will produce about 107dB or more on less than 50 watts from somewhere near 100Hz up to 3kHz "....as I said MOVING TARGET. Do not worry there are real experts (not me) on this forum that will continue to guide you throughout your misguided thought process.
Sure it may work but in terms real SPL performance it will suck. you might as well just go with a low SPL full range driver build and ignore real dynamics with low distortion. As I posted before limited application. I wasnt going to comment on your misguided opinion about woofers not playing to 400Hz.
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That would be a very uneducated opinion on the topic of Home theater or in your own words...the writer of such a phrase has no real understanding of the subject matter as this utterance simply shows ignorance and lack of understanding. I believe any post with this phrase should be summarily deleted or ignored. Maybe even this one.
Dynamics in movies have 20 - 30dB peaks, the average listen distance is > 10feet so performance in that application exceeds your limited experience on this topic. Im pretty sure you will re-define your usage after this point sinks in
Yes it is true- the trend in movie making is to push SPL beyond limits of reason, safety, or most systems. Last time I was at Lucas Films they kindly showed us how great their ** was and blew out about half their subs and quite a few mids were not working either after one brief passage. This is why I always put compression and limiters on every PA system and any home theater as any sensible person would. Why not make the movie experience enjoyable rather than simply stupid loud and distorted? Because the movie makers see fit to loose sight of anything other than pyrotechnic sound effects? Realistic? Hardly. Impressive? For those who are easily impressed by charlatan antics and faked effects. No common speaker or even other than a very special speaker system is going to give the "illusion" of a helicopter nearby, a jet, or any of a host of other movie ear candy. If you subscribe to that non-sense and believe it has a lot of merit then more power to you. As for music, well it does not exist there much either. So your point is that I just do not understand how dumb things are and I need to play along with that dumbness or I am wrong. I know the dumb like to play along and claim greatness as the dumb always do.
NO.
I also so not get this relentless call to prove stuff by publishing results on DIYaudio. No one here has authority to boss anyone else around yet there are many here who just cannot stop doing exactly that, over and over.
As for my targets they have never moved though as doug20 and several other "ex-perts" repeatedly have done is to draw the worst case and most extreme implausible scenario for the information provided and then raged on in manic frenzy about how they know something and that some out of context, imagined, and warped perspective derived from this irrational processes requires close examination by the DIYaudio community.
But this process goes on and the loudest raging experts have all the answers. That is good to know. To bad it is not true or all this would be much simpler. A fine and well designed and thought out plan will always suffer at the hand of the urgent and rambunctious idiot trying to show the world his greatness and knowledge with tireless self promotion. Easy to tell the difference between those who think and those who feel and claim to think. Just check for the self promotion label.
NO.
I also so not get this relentless call to prove stuff by publishing results on DIYaudio. No one here has authority to boss anyone else around yet there are many here who just cannot stop doing exactly that, over and over.
As for my targets they have never moved though as doug20 and several other "ex-perts" repeatedly have done is to draw the worst case and most extreme implausible scenario for the information provided and then raged on in manic frenzy about how they know something and that some out of context, imagined, and warped perspective derived from this irrational processes requires close examination by the DIYaudio community.
But this process goes on and the loudest raging experts have all the answers. That is good to know. To bad it is not true or all this would be much simpler. A fine and well designed and thought out plan will always suffer at the hand of the urgent and rambunctious idiot trying to show the world his greatness and knowledge with tireless self promotion. Easy to tell the difference between those who think and those who feel and claim to think. Just check for the self promotion label.
I think we should stick to the subject at hand do a little less saber rattling here. Sumaudioguy, how about you do the research required to find the driver and come back and show us your final product. I am a little surprised you haven't designed your own driver considering your experience.
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