One thing that I'd like to add about the way it was measured is that I measured two speakers in mono mode. I thought this would give a more realistic view because both drivers share eachothers enclosure and normally play in stereo mode. So they influence eachother....
And so the graph can suffer from the comb filtering effects....I couldn't make more measurements as the person who owns the equipment had just little time. That's why I want to get my own measuring set...
Any hints to good software for transient and distortion measurements much appreciated...
And so the graph can suffer from the comb filtering effects....I couldn't make more measurements as the person who owns the equipment had just little time. That's why I want to get my own measuring set...
Any hints to good software for transient and distortion measurements much appreciated...
I might have a solution. Looking at the fr graph:
http://www.bmm-electronics.nl/img/Data/hq/sph-30x-8-d.gif
with the many peaks and dips smoothed out helps see a solution.
What's the input R of the amp? I don't think I can totally null it out, but certainly flatten it, and reduce the 20 dB roll-off above it.
A T filter is like a T-pad or attenuator with reactance included in the legs to make it frequency dependant. A twin-t is two t's in parallel, to create a notch or peak. Many audio oscillators used a twin-t filter in the feedback cct.
Doing some maths, I reckon your dustcap is about 19.5mm across the dome. Though that's probably typical for 3 inchers. 1/2 wl @ 9.6K.
Geoff.
edit: Try the free download of ARTA. I haven't grasped all the features yet, so far so good.
http://www.bmm-electronics.nl/img/Data/hq/sph-30x-8-d.gif
with the many peaks and dips smoothed out helps see a solution.
What's the input R of the amp? I don't think I can totally null it out, but certainly flatten it, and reduce the 20 dB roll-off above it.
A T filter is like a T-pad or attenuator with reactance included in the legs to make it frequency dependant. A twin-t is two t's in parallel, to create a notch or peak. Many audio oscillators used a twin-t filter in the feedback cct.
Doing some maths, I reckon your dustcap is about 19.5mm across the dome. Though that's probably typical for 3 inchers. 1/2 wl @ 9.6K.
Geoff.
edit: Try the free download of ARTA. I haven't grasped all the features yet, so far so good.
Than input Z should be 47K, as the gain setting feedback resistor has that value...
Today I took the portable speaker to a lake nearby (with sandy beaches and islands with bridges). The place attracts a large crowd of people swimming and there are areas where ghettoblasters are alowed
Today was very sunny....
There were people quite surprised by the enormous sound from the little 1 liter enclosure with the SPH30X.
I also bought a 27 EUR. similar (but smaller) stereo portable speaker from 'TRUST'. It caught my attention because there's a class D amp inside.
Offcourse my little box has more voltage (double, from 6V to 12V), more liters (triple, 1 liter instead of 0.3), more power* (25 times more 25 watt/ch. instead of 1 watt/ch.) and costs a lot more (about 5 times more, ~150 EUR.).
*and probably a lot more efficient drivers...
But it sounds about 100 times better (it's not like slightly better imaging or differences like inputcap differences, it's the difference beteen 'do you hear anything?' and 'where are the telephone booths with 18 inch drivers and horns?!' (joke, offcourse that's slightly exagerated....).
No really I'm totally surprised by these drivers! (well actually in my book Monacor makes top notch stuff, many brands that produce more exotic drivers for much higher prices don't let you succeed in achieving such soundquality so easy. I LLLLLOOOVE the SP-60 4" driver for instance. 20 years ago I built the first set of speakers with them, back than they cost only ~7 EUR. where they cost ~15 EUR. today (still not expensive). They show excellent specs too! These drivers also allow a pretty powerfull amp to play almost max. on the driver even without enclosure! Phenomenal bass response surprised many people that had a listen to the four (2 per ch.) I use in my car (these four SP60 drivers are really 15 years old! Speaking about durability!) Monacor still sells them, that's what I like, a brand that sticks to what is good! Allmost every driver they make can be used in many applications, they are very very versatile. (so a good investment).
Sure there are probably better drivers, and I didn't try them all. Tangband also caught my eye, but none of the many drivers they make had what I was looking for. Most are designed for indoor use only, or are heavy....I needed:
Low weight (neodyme magnet)
Water and dust resistant (no phase plug...)
High efficiency.
High power handling (especially mechanically)
Shielded magnet.
Small enclosure suitable.
Reasonably low Fs.
Really wide freq. range (for it's size offcourse...)
For sure there are better thinkable applications for it (as mentioned a wooden (MDF...) enclosure for exxample). Didn't try it yet, but probably will. I will buy a lot more of'em for sure!
Another driver I think could be very interesting, the 4" Vifa 10bgs. But I've had many poor results with Vifa drivers in the past (17WP200, D75 and some 10" poly...cone I had were really bad, HT275 was nice though..)
I think the edge is in the edge, the Vifa drivers all had questionable finishing there...the D75 I think had a too heavily coated, too thick material roll edge. The 17WP200 had too tough rubber and the large woofer had a far too wide (therefore unsteady, not linear and lossy) edge in comparison to it's motor power...
SPH30X has a very flexible, but thin, yet durable edge. Seems very low loss and responsible for very detailed response. It also seems to have exactly the right size. The transients it can handle, man I never expected to feel the vibrations in my body from so far away from a 3"! (couple of meters...) I really wish they come up with a 4" version soon. A friend asked me to build a larger and even more powerfull version for him.
I did read many positive responses about the Vifa 10 bgs http://wt.parsimony.net/cgi-bin/view.cgi?Benutzernummer=64&Beitragsnummer=2
http://www.speaker-online.de/preise/pico.gif
Anyone with experience please share, I'd especially be interested to know about the mechanical capabilities of this driver? Does it rattle by the voice coil slamming to the poleplate, or does it just end in a bit rougher and distorted sound?
Keep
Today I took the portable speaker to a lake nearby (with sandy beaches and islands with bridges). The place attracts a large crowd of people swimming and there are areas where ghettoblasters are alowed
Today was very sunny....There were people quite surprised by the enormous sound from the little 1 liter enclosure with the SPH30X.
I also bought a 27 EUR. similar (but smaller) stereo portable speaker from 'TRUST'. It caught my attention because there's a class D amp inside.
Offcourse my little box has more voltage (double, from 6V to 12V), more liters (triple, 1 liter instead of 0.3), more power* (25 times more 25 watt/ch. instead of 1 watt/ch.) and costs a lot more (about 5 times more, ~150 EUR.).
*and probably a lot more efficient drivers...
But it sounds about 100 times better
(it's not like slightly better imaging or differences like inputcap differences, it's the difference beteen 'do you hear anything?' and 'where are the telephone booths with 18 inch drivers and horns?!' (joke, offcourse that's slightly exagerated....).No really I'm totally surprised by these drivers! (well actually in my book Monacor makes top notch stuff, many brands that produce more exotic drivers for much higher prices don't let you succeed in achieving such soundquality so easy. I LLLLLOOOVE the SP-60 4" driver for instance. 20 years ago I built the first set of speakers with them, back than they cost only ~7 EUR. where they cost ~15 EUR. today (still not expensive). They show excellent specs too! These drivers also allow a pretty powerfull amp to play almost max. on the driver even without enclosure! Phenomenal bass response surprised many people that had a listen to the four (2 per ch.) I use in my car (these four SP60 drivers are really 15 years old! Speaking about durability!) Monacor still sells them, that's what I like, a brand that sticks to what is good! Allmost every driver they make can be used in many applications, they are very very versatile. (so a good investment).
Sure there are probably better drivers, and I didn't try them all. Tangband also caught my eye, but none of the many drivers they make had what I was looking for. Most are designed for indoor use only, or are heavy....I needed:
Low weight (neodyme magnet)
Water and dust resistant (no phase plug...)
High efficiency.
High power handling (especially mechanically)
Shielded magnet.
Small enclosure suitable.
Reasonably low Fs.
Really wide freq. range (for it's size offcourse...)
For sure there are better thinkable applications for it (as mentioned a wooden (MDF...) enclosure for exxample). Didn't try it yet, but probably will. I will buy a lot more of'em for sure!
Another driver I think could be very interesting, the 4" Vifa 10bgs. But I've had many poor results with Vifa drivers in the past (17WP200, D75 and some 10" poly...cone I had were really bad, HT275 was nice though..)
I think the edge is in the edge, the Vifa drivers all had questionable finishing there...the D75 I think had a too heavily coated, too thick material roll edge. The 17WP200 had too tough rubber and the large woofer had a far too wide (therefore unsteady, not linear and lossy) edge in comparison to it's motor power...
SPH30X has a very flexible, but thin, yet durable edge. Seems very low loss and responsible for very detailed response. It also seems to have exactly the right size. The transients it can handle, man I never expected to feel the vibrations in my body from so far away from a 3"! (couple of meters...) I really wish they come up with a 4" version soon. A friend asked me to build a larger and even more powerfull version for him.
I did read many positive responses about the Vifa 10 bgs http://wt.parsimony.net/cgi-bin/view.cgi?Benutzernummer=64&Beitragsnummer=2
http://www.speaker-online.de/preise/pico.gif
Anyone with experience please share, I'd especially be interested to know about the mechanical capabilities of this driver? Does it rattle by the voice coil slamming to the poleplate, or does it just end in a bit rougher and distorted sound?
Keep
Hi v-bro. Try this. The 47K - 0.001 uF should provide roll off above 6khZ
The 0.82nF provides boost at 14kHz. Max attenuation should be about 7 dB @ 9K.
If that works out OK, we can add BSC.
If you change values to taste, change one at a time, they will interact a little.
Geoff
The 0.82nF provides boost at 14kHz. Max attenuation should be about 7 dB @ 9K.
If that works out OK, we can add BSC.
If you change values to taste, change one at a time, they will interact a little.
Geoff
Attachments
No measurements yet, but I tried your circuit Geoff, nice things are happening with the high frequencies. But voices still could be somewhat more in the background. My previous 2.5Khz notchfilter with added 1nF caps parallel to the input resistor. The latter absolutely enhances the highest frequencies.
But Monacor probably measured the driver in a baffle, they also seem to add smoothing on the graphs. The enclosure I use is far from ideal, so that might need a different type of filter (or same filter, but other values...)
Looking at the measurement I took from the unfiltered loudspeaker it would seem that it would just need bass boost....
Or maybe Z isn't 47K afterall...I'll have to get back to it tomorrow...
But Monacor probably measured the driver in a baffle, they also seem to add smoothing on the graphs. The enclosure I use is far from ideal, so that might need a different type of filter (or same filter, but other values...)
Looking at the measurement I took from the unfiltered loudspeaker it would seem that it would just need bass boost....
Or maybe Z isn't 47K afterall...I'll have to get back to it tomorrow...
That SPH30X driver looks interesting and seems to be available in the UK here (any ideas if this site is ok?):
http://www.soundsec.com/store/en/view_product/2/474/?product_view=images#tab
Do you think it would work well in a cyburgs needle type design? How is the power handling, it specs higher than the TB W3-871 but can it use it?
http://www.soundsec.com/store/en/view_product/2/474/?product_view=images#tab
Do you think it would work well in a cyburgs needle type design? How is the power handling, it specs higher than the TB W3-871 but can it use it?
I think it certainly can! 
That site looks like a clone of http://www.bmm-electronics.nl
It's where I bought them.
I was very surprised about the power handling! I mean I have the experience that Monacor drivers have exceptional (especially mechanical) overall powerhandling..... (check out SP60! I have 15 year old SP60, now I'm pretty spoiled, but this driver never seizes to amaze me! It's virtually indestructable! I've killed many other papercones in the meanwhile, these 4" have it all, good sound, great power handling, nice bass response (low fs) good design details and an amazing price.....).
When I first connected the 30x I was even more surprized, how can they make such a small driver with such high efficiency and soundquality, and durability, power handling, magnetically shielded, perfect allround specs, great looks/finishing and at such a price!!!!!!!!!! I'd say, get them and you won't be disappointed....
Don't worry, after you've connected them you'll be just as biased as I am
No really, they should be fine in a small TL enclosure....
That site looks like a clone of http://www.bmm-electronics.nl
It's where I bought them.
I was very surprised about the power handling! I mean I have the experience that Monacor drivers have exceptional (especially mechanical) overall powerhandling..... (check out SP60! I have 15 year old SP60, now I'm pretty spoiled, but this driver never seizes to amaze me! It's virtually indestructable! I've killed many other papercones in the meanwhile, these 4" have it all, good sound, great power handling, nice bass response (low fs) good design details and an amazing price.....).
When I first connected the 30x I was even more surprized, how can they make such a small driver with such high efficiency and soundquality, and durability, power handling, magnetically shielded, perfect allround specs, great looks/finishing and at such a price!!!!!!!!!! I'd say, get them and you won't be disappointed....
Don't worry, after you've connected them you'll be just as biased as I am
No really, they should be fine in a small TL enclosure....
I've had mishaps with many other drivers (like Vifa 17WP200...yuck!) Some of them made me pretty timid in the past about being able to build good sound myself...
Monacor never dissapointed me up to this day, with none of their drivers. For me they put the fun back in designing and building stuff myself..they simply allways gives me satisfying results at a stunning price...
I've had pretty good results with Seas and Scanspeak as well, but they're so much more expensive that it doesn't weigh up to the price difference. (the difference is really insane!)
I still have to try TB, I like the looks and people report pretty positive things about them, so like I said I'm biased....
Monacor never dissapointed me up to this day, with none of their drivers. For me they put the fun back in designing and building stuff myself..they simply allways gives me satisfying results at a stunning price...
I've had pretty good results with Seas and Scanspeak as well, but they're so much more expensive that it doesn't weigh up to the price difference. (the difference is really insane!)
I still have to try TB, I like the looks and people report pretty positive things about them, so like I said I'm biased....
The linear Xmax is certainly higher on these than normal (compared to most 3" full range), +/-2mm is pretty exceptional. I don't know how to go about optimising a cyburgs needle type design for these drivers but I expect the results could be pretty nice .
Certainly tempting and a chip-amp based on the LM1875T seems like a good match. If only I needed another small system for something
. Certainly tempting and a chip-amp based on the LM1875T seems like a good match. If only I needed another small system for something
Hahah!
That's much how I go about in life, I just build something and it allways finds a purpose somewhere, or for someone else...LOL
The 30X suspension can handle a lot of abuse! I have never had or seen better performance....yet....
Offcourse the psychological effect of seeing only a 3" driver do the work helps too...
Wish they made a 4" version....soon....
That's much how I go about in life, I just build something and it allways finds a purpose somewhere, or for someone else...LOL
The 30X suspension can handle a lot of abuse! I have never had or seen better performance....yet....
Offcourse the psychological effect of seeing only a 3" driver do the work helps too...
Wish they made a 4" version....soon....
By the way...
The site I posted before in English:
http://www.bmm-electronics.com/
About ARTA, I have it up and running, still need a better mic, and I haven't figured out how to make screenshots yet...
Maybe buy an apple...
The previously posted measurements were done with an apple laptop from a friend...and other software...(not ARTA...)
Anyone ideas? Other than making a snapshot...
The site I posted before in English:
http://www.bmm-electronics.com/
About ARTA, I have it up and running, still need a better mic, and I haven't figured out how to make screenshots yet...
Maybe buy an apple...
The previously posted measurements were done with an apple laptop from a friend...and other software...(not ARTA...)
Anyone ideas? Other than making a snapshot...
Hi v-bro "Anyone ideas? Other than making a snapshot.."
Hit the copy button. Start up paint, past, accept new image size. You're done. Just save as you wish. 2K-pro can only save as bitmap. Xtreemly Painful can save as gif. BW images are easier to read an print.
What mic are you using?
Geoff.
Hit the copy button. Start up paint, past, accept new image size. You're done. Just save as you wish. 2K-pro can only save as bitmap. Xtreemly Painful can save as gif. BW images are easier to read an print.
What mic are you using?
Geoff.
Thanks Geoff!
Will try soon!
I use this one:
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/2077
Will try soon!
I use this one:
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/2077
I am definately interested in this driver for use in a cyburgs needle style design. What I don't know is if it will perform especially well in that design without modification, since it is meant for the visaton or tangband drivers. That said people have used it with all sorts of drivers and reported good results so perhaps it is quite universal
Dare I say I like the idea of using a tweeter/supertweeter. Crossed around 8khz it would be outside of the critical band(s) and would give extra high end and help control that large peak at 10khz. The Dayton ND20FB might make a nice tweeter/supertweeter for this. I also like the mounting idea I've pictured, though making that mask would be difficult especially without a router
I could start a new thread if you'd prefer, this might be going a bit off track.
Dare I say I like the idea of using a tweeter/supertweeter
. Crossed around 8khz it would be outside of the critical band(s) and would give extra high end and help control that large peak at 10khz. The Dayton ND20FB might make a nice tweeter/supertweeter for this. I also like the mounting idea I've pictured, though making that mask would be difficult especially without a router I could start a new thread if you'd prefer, this might be going a bit off track.
Attachments
Ok, I finally got one, for experimenting at this stage. Its a decent little unit; high sensitivity, good excursion and power handling, very fast transients and good presentation of vocals.
Shot with EX-Z40 at 2007-07-06
Shot at 2007-07-06
I find run without any filtering the sound is a bit too harsh and forward. I designed a set of filters based on this design:
http://www.madaboutsound.com/bravura_fr125S_speaker_design.asp
and arrived at component values through experimentation on switcher cad based on the frequency response chart of the driver. In practise the filters work well but a little fine tuning is required I feel, still a hint of shoutyness/reedy tone and too much sibilance on some recordings (though that bothers me on most systems I've heard so I don't think its a flaw in the speaker). The filters are attached, you need an input buffer and a low cut filter may be desirable to reduce excursion.
My testing is so far with a thick cardboard tube acting as a TL. It allows the driver to produce some bass but nothing amazing yet. How do you calculate the tube length based on resonance again, does it involve the speed of sound in air? I'd like to try a cyburgs needle for it.
Shot at 2007-07-06
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Shot with EX-Z40 at 2007-07-06
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Shot at 2007-07-06
I find run without any filtering the sound is a bit too harsh and forward. I designed a set of filters based on this design:
http://www.madaboutsound.com/bravura_fr125S_speaker_design.asp
and arrived at component values through experimentation on switcher cad based on the frequency response chart of the driver. In practise the filters work well but a little fine tuning is required I feel, still a hint of shoutyness/reedy tone and too much sibilance on some recordings (though that bothers me on most systems I've heard so I don't think its a flaw in the speaker). The filters are attached, you need an input buffer and a low cut filter may be desirable to reduce excursion.
My testing is so far with a thick cardboard tube acting as a TL. It allows the driver to produce some bass but nothing amazing yet. How do you calculate the tube length based on resonance again, does it involve the speed of sound in air? I'd like to try a cyburgs needle for it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Shot at 2007-07-06
Attachments
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