Hello, All!
Just joined today as I found a very useful guide here on using Hypex Filter Design, thanks to DannerD3H.
I have always been a music and audio fan and find acoustics and speakers particularly fascinating. I always wanted to design and build my own speakers but never got to it, mainly due to lack of space to use for woodworking (I live in a small flat). But still decided to go for it. I will work around the difficulties somehow. If there is a will, there is a way.
I have reasonable understanding of audio, electronics and design process and ok to use my hands, but I have almost no experience, so face a steep learning curve.
First thing I did is buy the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. Reading it now. Learning curve.
I have a pair of old slim floorstaders (description to follow) that I intend to convert to actives. This will help to initially avoid much woodwork, while still learning about drivers, crossovers and amps and box interaction. This will be done in two steps:
Step 1 - add Hypex Fusion amp and use existing drivers and enclosure as is
Step 2 - replace the drivers for better specced ones, modify the box
This will hopefully take me to a future point of fully building larger speakers and maybe a sub. One day.
So far I have bought a Dayton UMM6 mic, a Fosi V3 amp and just about managed a few measurements in REW of the speakers in passive form and of individual drivers. I managed to install on old version of HFD software on an old Win XP (!) laptop and hope to use that to program the FA253s when they arrive later this week.
I do stumble a lot and have lots of questions and definitely need some help. I will be asking here and would appreciate any help from the more experienced members.
I will make a post with the existing speaker details and maybe a few other things I am struggling with.
FWIW I do have some forum history on a couple of HiFi forums: Hifiwigwam and Audiosciencereview.
So, wish me luck.
Just joined today as I found a very useful guide here on using Hypex Filter Design, thanks to DannerD3H.
I have always been a music and audio fan and find acoustics and speakers particularly fascinating. I always wanted to design and build my own speakers but never got to it, mainly due to lack of space to use for woodworking (I live in a small flat). But still decided to go for it. I will work around the difficulties somehow. If there is a will, there is a way.
I have reasonable understanding of audio, electronics and design process and ok to use my hands, but I have almost no experience, so face a steep learning curve.
First thing I did is buy the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. Reading it now. Learning curve.
I have a pair of old slim floorstaders (description to follow) that I intend to convert to actives. This will help to initially avoid much woodwork, while still learning about drivers, crossovers and amps and box interaction. This will be done in two steps:
Step 1 - add Hypex Fusion amp and use existing drivers and enclosure as is
Step 2 - replace the drivers for better specced ones, modify the box
This will hopefully take me to a future point of fully building larger speakers and maybe a sub. One day.
So far I have bought a Dayton UMM6 mic, a Fosi V3 amp and just about managed a few measurements in REW of the speakers in passive form and of individual drivers. I managed to install on old version of HFD software on an old Win XP (!) laptop and hope to use that to program the FA253s when they arrive later this week.
I do stumble a lot and have lots of questions and definitely need some help. I will be asking here and would appreciate any help from the more experienced members.
I will make a post with the existing speaker details and maybe a few other things I am struggling with.
FWIW I do have some forum history on a couple of HiFi forums: Hifiwigwam and Audiosciencereview.
So, wish me luck.
Yeah good luck,
You will find lots of great input here. I’ll follow along and pitch in where I can. I’ve got an active system using FA 122’s. Hypex Filter Design can be challenging but once you establish a base line that works you can store that and always have it to fall back on.
You will find lots of great input here. I’ll follow along and pitch in where I can. I’ve got an active system using FA 122’s. Hypex Filter Design can be challenging but once you establish a base line that works you can store that and always have it to fall back on.
The existing speakers are Monitor Audio Monitor 3. About 25 yo, in good condition. I have now established they are a 2-way. The two woofers are in the same single cavity. At the bottom there is a separate compartment that is currently filled with sand. The woofers are not marked. A few pics:
I have now disconnected the crossover in one speaker and measured the individual drivers. Also measured the speaker before disconnecting the crossover. I must have done the spl calibration wrong. The overall sweep is from 1.2m distance at tweeter axis and the individual drivers are 3cm distance.
Bottom Woofer
Tweeter
Full speaker
Bottom Woofer
Tweeter
Full speaker
Currently I have three stumbling points:
- calibrating spl correctly in REW. Hope to sort it out myself
- using HFD. I hope to have a go using the guides once the amps arrive. See how it goes.
- this one need help: how do I select the drivers (for future replacement):
For example, if I look at SB Acoustics range of tweeters, narrow it down on ohms and Satory line, there is still a few to choose from and their parameters look too similar to my uneducated eye. How the hell do I choose the tweeter?
Once I choose, how do I compare the above (plus say the 5in SB Satory midrange ) vs the option of using a coax? Say, the 5in SB coax?
Woofers: If I use a pair of Dayton Epique 5.5in and calculate the box size for them (online calc) I get a ridiculously small volume. This makes me think I am doing it wrong.
In general, is a pair of the Epiques suitable for this application? I.e. two woofers in the same cavity in that box, assuming I modify the cavity to match the required calculated volume.
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When you go active there is room within dsp to allow the use of drivers of different qualities. Satori are excellent but there are many designs that really don’t require such high end drivers. Take a look at Meadowlarksings.com
The designer there has utilized Satori in several designs but also offers other more affordable options. Just a thought
The designer there has utilized Satori in several designs but also offers other more affordable options. Just a thought
I have read everything, but the question remains why u r trying to revive speaker, which has pretty bad foundation instead building everything from scratch. IMO in most situation complete rebuild is much much more expensive than to start from scratch. Why I do not recommend rebuild in your case:
My advice would be to review just the crossover of those speakers and just to make some internal bracing, if possible without taking the cabinets apart. Also probably replace that ugly foam with volume filling, or leave as is. That is all. Then you will add a little, but gain a lot.
BTW, measurements show they are a decent speakers, have a pleasant BBC dip in 2-5kHz. there is not much you can improve
Start from scratch any of the reasonable project and you will have 2 separate pairs of speakers at the end of the day.
Ok, I am blindly recommending some floorstand projects:
https://sbacoustics.com/product/arya/ - there are more on SBA website
https://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=66&Itemid=250 - there are with hypex or passive ones
Basically if you have decided to use hypex - most of the floorstanders can be adapted.
- Drivers are stamped steel - that is the lowest rank of the lowest. Yes, you try to replace them, but that will cost money and if you are not lucky to pick the suitable ones - it will cost second time.
- The box is 12mm MDF - that is cardboard level rubbish. Not worth keeping.
- You will ruin cosmetic look of the boxes, don't say that you are heart surgeon, and you work like one with everything in your everyday life. Scratches happen, corners of box like things are hit very often.
- You will ruin the value of the cabinets, because now you have some brand named speakers, which have at least some value in the second hand market, they have also sentimental value. They have nice shiny logos. When you replace everything what makes them "Mission" - you are not gaining value, just losing.
My advice would be to review just the crossover of those speakers and just to make some internal bracing, if possible without taking the cabinets apart. Also probably replace that ugly foam with volume filling, or leave as is. That is all. Then you will add a little, but gain a lot.
BTW, measurements show they are a decent speakers, have a pleasant BBC dip in 2-5kHz. there is not much you can improve
Start from scratch any of the reasonable project and you will have 2 separate pairs of speakers at the end of the day.
Ok, I am blindly recommending some floorstand projects:
https://sbacoustics.com/product/arya/ - there are more on SBA website
https://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=66&Itemid=250 - there are with hypex or passive ones
Basically if you have decided to use hypex - most of the floorstanders can be adapted.
Hi
Yes, @DannerD3Hs guide is great!
I encourage you to forget everything about new drivers etc before you have a good idea about simulating loudspeaker:
https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf
Yes, @DannerD3Hs guide is great!
I encourage you to forget everything about new drivers etc before you have a good idea about simulating loudspeaker:
https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf
Jcris, svp,
All that is coming, but a bit later. I am currently constrained on woodworking. I do not have any financial gain target nor need the resulting speakers. The current speakers have no value and their only remaining mission is to be a trial project.
Reinforcing and damping the cabinet is indeed a must and I plan to do that.
Key question for me now: how to properly choose the most suitable drivers for this cabinet. And want to understand the method, not just know the result.
I know Satori are good drivers. But how do I know any of them suit this box? Same for Epiques.
All that is coming, but a bit later. I am currently constrained on woodworking. I do not have any financial gain target nor need the resulting speakers. The current speakers have no value and their only remaining mission is to be a trial project.
Reinforcing and damping the cabinet is indeed a must and I plan to do that.
Key question for me now: how to properly choose the most suitable drivers for this cabinet. And want to understand the method, not just know the result.
I know Satori are good drivers. But how do I know any of them suit this box? Same for Epiques.
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The hardest part is making the round holes for speakers. You already need to do this and it is much MUCH easier to do on fresh project.
Also - your base is just bad. 12mm MDF is like a crime here. Death penalty level crime.
Box tuning is for current drivers, you cannot just swap drivers and expect instant improvement. It does not work that way.
Look for finished projects and look which ones you can obtain at reasonable price: if you can get cheaply tax-free SBA drivers, then go SBA, Seas - then go Seas and so on. Just stay in budget. SBA and Dayton have a good value for money, don't look at Satori, you are still building project which will be on another level even with simpler drivers. For example RS-225, and RS-225P are a good foundation for woofers. Many many reviews out here. SBA have really good tweeters, also they have reasonably priced woofers with membranes from different materials, depending on what you like more. Also many reviews and measurements.
As you are building active, you have very very good flexibility. Driver selection depends on many factors, better for you to look for finished open source projects, passive also are ok, and then try to see if box size, driver price and the purpose of those boxes are suitable for you.
I don't want to recommend specific ones, as I don't know your requirements. Blindly I would suggest go full 3 way, with driver sizes like 8-10'' woofer, 4-5" mid and 0.75''-1'' tweeter. Big woofers will not fit into current boxes for sure. And it is another crime to waste Hypex on small lifeless drivers which will struggle to play low notes at reasonable SPL and quality. There is no replacement for displacement.
Box: I plan to reinforce the box by adding another layer of 12mm mdf inside each wall, plus 2-3mm of butyl mats. I will add 18mm front panel and plenty of internal bracing, as well as wadding.
Drivers: the max size I can fit on the front/back panel is 155mm od. 180mm if I use side firing. Specific question on drivers: which ones of these tweeters is more suited for this box and why:
Specific question 2: using this box vol calculator https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/SpeakerBoxEnclosure/
for a pair of these drivers
https://daytonaudio.com/product/191...-mmag-extended-range-subwoofer-4-ohm-per-coil
I get the total volume of abot 6l
Is that correct? Seems extremely low.
Expected improvement: I think I should be able to achive:
Drivers: the max size I can fit on the front/back panel is 155mm od. 180mm if I use side firing. Specific question on drivers: which ones of these tweeters is more suited for this box and why:
- https://sbacoustics.com/product/satori-tw29dn-b-8/
- https://sbacoustics.com/product/satori-tw29r-b/
- https://sbacoustics.com/product/satori-tw29rn-b-8/
- https://sbacoustics.com/product/sb26stwgc-4-fabric/
Specific question 2: using this box vol calculator https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/SpeakerBoxEnclosure/
for a pair of these drivers
https://daytonaudio.com/product/191...-mmag-extended-range-subwoofer-4-ohm-per-coil
I get the total volume of abot 6l
Is that correct? Seems extremely low.
Expected improvement: I think I should be able to achive:
- significantly better bass extension, from much more powerful drivers with much larger xmax
- better hf extension, from better specced tweeter
- better directivity. Maybe, if I use a wave-guide tweeter or coax.
- lower distortion, from better specced drivers, active crossover and deadened cabinet
- higher spl capability, from better drivers and active config
- flatter FR from DSP
I would simply implement the Hypex + existing drivers on one speaker. Then compare it with the original speaker, reinforced 12mm is ok for this kind of speaker!
Yes, this exactly is step 1 in my plan.
Step 2, layer, will be replace drivers.
Step 3, much later, will be a completely new project, not related to 1&2.
Step 2, layer, will be replace drivers.
Step 3, much later, will be a completely new project, not related to 1&2.
I am new to this forum, and like the author, I am also interested in the Hypex topic. As far as I understand, Hypex allows you to manipulate the settings in such a way that your old speakers should sound better than before anyway. If this is an educational project, I would focus on studying the capabilities of Hypex, and not on radically improving the speakers. You can strengthen the case from the inside, add spacers, damping material. Changing the speakers to more expensive and high-quality ones is an unnecessary increase in the cost of an educational project. The point is to hear how the old speakers with Hypex will sparkle with new colors, and with high-quality speakers they will sound better anyway and without Hypex.
It sounds as though you want a plot of what the current crossover does to use as a guide. This is a good starting point.
It would be best if you didn't use the mic for that and just measured the effect of the filters directly at the driver terminals.
To AllenB:
Yes, this how I am starting.
Step 2, with new drivers, is in the ‘think through’ phase.
Step 1 is in ‘do’ phase.
Yes, this how I am starting.
Step 2, with new drivers, is in the ‘think through’ phase.
Step 1 is in ‘do’ phase.
It doesn't work that way. If you copy the current crossover then it will for the most part sound the same. Any improvement you make is dependent on your own skills as a speaker designer.