Ok, this maybe a next to impossible request, but I've been scouring the net in pursuit of a smallish full range driver to use in my HT(mains, center, and rears). And yes, I have searched.
To have the increased dynamics needed for movie sound the driver obviously needs to have a bit more x-max than the typical super sensitive paper coned fair from fostex. I know there are the jx92s.....that is out just because I think there are other drivers that do 95% sonically @ 30% of the cost. I'm really wanting to stay with a sealed configuration for them due to the WAF. I've looked @ the MA drivers as well, but can they pull it off in a small sealed cab? The room is 28x15 and a pair of volvotreter 38hz tapped horns will come in at around 80hz. Does such a driver exist that may meet my needs?
I've been eying this driver Tang Band W5-1611SA 5" Full Range Driver | Parts-Express.com as it has intrigued me for a while and PE has just started carrying them....thoughts. BTW PE just rolled out 5 new TB full range drivers that are all very interesting, check it out. I'm open to all suggestions the only requirement being good response in a modest sealed cab, and not wanting to spend a grip either. Thanks in advance.
To have the increased dynamics needed for movie sound the driver obviously needs to have a bit more x-max than the typical super sensitive paper coned fair from fostex. I know there are the jx92s.....that is out just because I think there are other drivers that do 95% sonically @ 30% of the cost. I'm really wanting to stay with a sealed configuration for them due to the WAF. I've looked @ the MA drivers as well, but can they pull it off in a small sealed cab? The room is 28x15 and a pair of volvotreter 38hz tapped horns will come in at around 80hz. Does such a driver exist that may meet my needs?
I've been eying this driver Tang Band W5-1611SA 5" Full Range Driver | Parts-Express.com as it has intrigued me for a while and PE has just started carrying them....thoughts. BTW PE just rolled out 5 new TB full range drivers that are all very interesting, check it out. I'm open to all suggestions the only requirement being good response in a modest sealed cab, and not wanting to spend a grip either. Thanks in advance.
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IMO you can't go wrong with TB drivers. Many work very well in simple sealed boxes.
http://www.zillaaudio.com/tb-1320-bamboo.htm
Mine are ported but the bamboo driver works well sealed too. I have not heard the driver you have your eyes on but it looks like it will work great. I may buy that driver one day... when i find a good excuse to own yet another full range driver.
Godzilla
http://www.zillaaudio.com/tb-1320-bamboo.htm
Mine are ported but the bamboo driver works well sealed too. I have not heard the driver you have your eyes on but it looks like it will work great. I may buy that driver one day... when i find a good excuse to own yet another full range driver.
Godzilla
how can any small driver handle the dynamics in HT? None of them can do any sort of SPL.
That is a huge room and its foolish to even thing small drivers (even 3 together) can work. Maybe in a Tapped midbass horn?
Anyone with a custom HT room will tell you that >= 8" woofers are really needed from 80Hz up past 400Hz. I like 12" or 15"....You have 28 feet, are you only sitting 5 feet back?
Do not screw your nice HUGE HT room by thinking small drivers will work. You will also have a huge mismatch with those volvotreter 38hz tapped horns. This also leads me to my next question what do you have for bass from 15Hz to 38Hz??
That is a huge room and its foolish to even thing small drivers (even 3 together) can work. Maybe in a Tapped midbass horn?
Anyone with a custom HT room will tell you that >= 8" woofers are really needed from 80Hz up past 400Hz. I like 12" or 15"....You have 28 feet, are you only sitting 5 feet back?
Do not screw your nice HUGE HT room by thinking small drivers will work. You will also have a huge mismatch with those volvotreter 38hz tapped horns. This also leads me to my next question what do you have for bass from 15Hz to 38Hz??
To clarify sir 1) this is not a custom HT room, it's my living room, seating position about 15ft from tube 2) as I stated before, the wife has more bearing on it than I, thus I compromise 3) it is even more foolish of you to state that 8,12, or 15 woofers are a requirement for a satisfying HT experience. I've heard more than a few 10-50k media rooms (my Dad was a high-end trim/finish cabinetmaker) that utilize no more than megabuck bookshelf speakers and subs 4) the 38hz horns are tuned to 38hz, that is not where they cutoff. A larger 12 or 15 inch sub will fill the last octave in the near future and most importantly 5) if you have a driver suggestion or a thumbs up to anything mentioned above....offer it up. If not, please do not attempt to tell me how foolish or ludicrous my goals are. Good day Zilla and Scott....thanks for being relevant.
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Stevie, have you tried the Aurasound NS3-193-8A? Very small, high power handling and wonderful X-max. To extend the top octave, add a cheap small tweeter with a cap and L-pad and it's alright, and if you can't hear things above 16kHz, forget the tweeter. It is good enough for that. Add a 10" Peerless sub with 300W plate amp and you're done! You can buy all these from Madisxxxd and this saves some shipping as well.
My room is actually bigger than yours. 23x35 with a vault that goes up to 17 ft. My stereo doubles as HT, and only runs 2.1.
My preference is for drivers in the 4-5" size. I have no issues with any number of the boxes i have satisfying my HT needs. Frugel-Horn Mk3, Maeshowe, dMar-Ken7 (& dMar-Ken70), Mar-Kel70, Mar-Ken10, FonkenPrime, even the Jim Griffin 14 litre reflex (but you are right, better performance for a fraction of the price can be had). The smaller milliSize boxes don't get as much time in the system and their more limited bass response means they aren't quite as effortless in HT aps (althou the look on people's faces when you fire up the uFonken tends to have you wondering).
With the restriction of small, sealed, then that narrows things down -- within my direct experience envelope that would be the CHR-70 in 5-7 litres sealed. With a full 5.1 or 5.2 system i see no issues. If you find it isn't enuff, one of the many double driver designs could be used for L-R mains.
There is a microTower appendix document which has some suggestions for just such designs to complement microTowers (or halfTowers) in an HT system (Mark Audio Box Library -- under the ML-TLs)
For a quality bump, the Alpair7 is a straight sub for the CHR in the microTower series (but doesn't go as low in the sealed boxes) -- just watch that the larger bezel actually fits the box.
dave
PS: I'm generally not a big TB fan, but that 5" looks nice -- reminds me of the 3" neo-prototypes i managed to score. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/8054-tale-two-tangbands.html
My preference is for drivers in the 4-5" size. I have no issues with any number of the boxes i have satisfying my HT needs. Frugel-Horn Mk3, Maeshowe, dMar-Ken7 (& dMar-Ken70), Mar-Kel70, Mar-Ken10, FonkenPrime, even the Jim Griffin 14 litre reflex (but you are right, better performance for a fraction of the price can be had). The smaller milliSize boxes don't get as much time in the system and their more limited bass response means they aren't quite as effortless in HT aps (althou the look on people's faces when you fire up the uFonken tends to have you wondering).
With the restriction of small, sealed, then that narrows things down -- within my direct experience envelope that would be the CHR-70 in 5-7 litres sealed. With a full 5.1 or 5.2 system i see no issues. If you find it isn't enuff, one of the many double driver designs could be used for L-R mains.
There is a microTower appendix document which has some suggestions for just such designs to complement microTowers (or halfTowers) in an HT system (Mark Audio Box Library -- under the ML-TLs)
For a quality bump, the Alpair7 is a straight sub for the CHR in the microTower series (but doesn't go as low in the sealed boxes) -- just watch that the larger bezel actually fits the box.
dave
PS: I'm generally not a big TB fan, but that 5" looks nice -- reminds me of the 3" neo-prototypes i managed to score. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/8054-tale-two-tangbands.html
Real HT performance does need dynamics and you can not get that will small drivers. Its a science thing. Im not sure you know about that and Im not sure you have any experience knowing what compression and amp clipping sounds like since most people do not (including Planet and his 4" HT choice ). Its a shame you are never going to use the potential of your tapped horn but there are always different priorties.
As long as you know/acknowledge its a compromise then that is all fine and dandy. I know the "compromise/WAF" stuff. I have a 30x45 family room that have nice NHT DIY designs with wimping 5" woofers. Its more about looks then anything else in some rooms. I have a custom HT room for the real speakers.
). Its a shame you are never going to use the potential of your tapped horn but there are always different priorties.As long as you know/acknowledge its a compromise then that is all fine and dandy. I know the "compromise/WAF" stuff. I have a 30x45 family room that have nice NHT DIY designs with wimping 5" woofers. Its more about looks then anything else in some rooms. I have a custom HT room for the real speakers.
...any experience knowing what compression and amp clipping sounds like since most people do not (including Planet and his 4" HT choice
Speak for yourself, not me. You have little idea what i've experienced in close to 40 years doing this. I well know the sound of the kinds of amps you often mention using going into clipping. It makes me shudder.
The OP is in the FR Forum, asking about small FR to fit a set of restrictions already in place. Your discouragement is not appreciated
A 4" isn't the be all & end all, but a single one will do things a bigger rig with XOs just doesn't know about. And they continually surprise many people who hear them for the 1st time.
dave
I can't beleive no one has mentioned this driver!
Creative Sound - Product Details
I use 4 of these in my center channel, absolutely amazing sound, more xmax than that 5 inch TB drivers, MUCH BETTER QC. Flat from around 60-20k, 4 inch will have less issues with high frequency beaming, and the phase plug only reduces SD of the cone, so it will actually be better for displacement than the TB.
The only thing the TB bests it in, is sensitivity.
I have my 4x EL70 center channel crossed at 80hz 2nd order, no issues whatsoever, and amazingly clean/articulate voices for HT. I'd reccomend using 8 for your mains, and 4 in each of the surrounds. total amount of drivers if you want to go all out EL70's is 36 drivers and thats for 7 channel. This is of course if you wanted to match your surrounds to your mains.
Creative Sound - Product Details
I use 4 of these in my center channel, absolutely amazing sound, more xmax than that 5 inch TB drivers, MUCH BETTER QC. Flat from around 60-20k, 4 inch will have less issues with high frequency beaming, and the phase plug only reduces SD of the cone, so it will actually be better for displacement than the TB.
The only thing the TB bests it in, is sensitivity.
I have my 4x EL70 center channel crossed at 80hz 2nd order, no issues whatsoever, and amazingly clean/articulate voices for HT. I'd reccomend using 8 for your mains, and 4 in each of the surrounds. total amount of drivers if you want to go all out EL70's is 36 drivers and thats for 7 channel. This is of course if you wanted to match your surrounds to your mains.
Doug, if I may politely suggest: back off a little. I think it's fairly obvious that the gentleman is not trying to create the ultimate HT system, nor anything like. He just wants a simple & unobtrusive surround rig offering reasonable performance for his lounge. Not a lot to ask. You appear to be implying that if a system does not possess a frequency and dynamic bandwidth that conforms as a minimum to full THX spec. or perhaps Dolby's somewhat more precise requirements, then a person might as well not bother. In an ideal world, I'm sure we all agree that it'd be lovely to have that potential, even if it's never exploited, & I'm delighted that you are in so fortunate a position as to be able to achieve this. However, a/ not everyone else is, b/ not everyone else does feel the need for it, and c/ as Dave points out, if it's cranked up sufficiently often, you're likely to cause hearing damage, given that it's a medical fact that anything over 85dB, long term is sufficient to cause problems. As an aside, I don't think you're going to win many friends by passing sarcastic remarks about other people's preferences when they do not conform to your own, or what you believe to be their experiences. Most people don't like that very much; they think it's rude.
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Well i sort of did -- Mar-Kel70 uses EL70. But for the sealed restriction this would be my 1st choice for HT. It will fit into a milliSize enclousure for small (a set of those are my office speakers)
dave
Real HT performance does need dynamics and you can not get that will small drivers. Its a science thing. Im not sure you know about that and Im not sure you have any experience knowing what compression and amp clipping sounds like since most people do not (including Planet and his 4" HT choice
As long as you know/acknowledge its a compromise then that is all fine and dandy. I know the "compromise/WAF" stuff. I have a 30x45 family room that have nice NHT DIY designs with wimping 5" woofers. Its more about looks then anything else in some rooms. I have a custom HT room for the real speakers.
Doug,
I'll speak for myself and everyone else here when I say we don't appreciate the "downtalk", as it seems. Dave is inarguably one of the most respected experienced members here in general (not just FR), with no doubt dozens of successful designs under his belt. So as he put it so well, speak for yourself. Also, please divulge some quantifiable evidence for your theory, that small drivers elicit compression and clipping in an HT environment, including your own 5" NHT based system. It just does not compute, provided there is sufficient headroom for the amplifier.
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Well, not to defend Doug's potentially well meaning but poorly parsed "helpful advice", it is simple physics that eventually all drivers will run out of linear excursion and start to "compress" (or worse), be they the "budget" class of 4-5" full range drivers that are favorites of DIYer's (i.e. Fostex, Mark Audio, Fountek, TB, etc.), or kilo-buck high efficiency direct radiating, front horn loaded cones or industrial strength compression designs.
Let's not confuse that with amplifier clipping - all the clean power in the world won't prevent the driver from reaching its limits. At what levels each of these different types of "distortion" will occur and how separately discernible they'll be is far from simple to predict. For example, some small FR drivers are far more benign as they enter compression and reach their excursion limits ( e.g. Fostex ), others not so much ( e.g. CSS FR125)
However, to say that for example an FE126E in a well designed enclosure, such as any number of those discussed in these fora, cannot achieve "adequate" (as in satisfying to the listener) wide band performance and dynamics for either simple 2 channel audio, or even as the font row in a modest domestic HT rig, as per the OP' s inquiry, is quite simply inaccurate. Perhaps Doug would like to discuss the matter with Ed Schilling?
Priorities, context and tact are all too often overlooked in the rush to offer "the benefit of my vast and deep experience"
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Sorry if you think it was down talk. Its simply science, I didn't know how to sugar coat saying that there is a compromise in the choice. You reply was fine and your selection process is just fine. I wanted to know why this appoarch was being taking and you answered that. I agree with the WAF decision.
As for Planet, I was going to reply to his post but I have been out golfing all day so I will say it here. Of course Planet10 is a great audiophile/speaker builder and knows a lot more then I do about 2 channel speaker designs but his choices have compromises when applied to other applications like HT. He is 2 channel first and a full range specialist (full range is simply a compromise to HT). I doubt he builds anything or researches HT at all and so even 40 years of audio participation means nothing if there isnt any work done in HT. Not one of his designs is what I would consider a great HT design, of course he isnt designing speakers for HT either so I wouldn't expect any of them to be great.
Im not subjective, Im purely a numbers guy so here it is. HT has dynamics. 200Hz can have a 25dB peak in some action movies. The OP is 15 feet back so you guys can figure out what amp, driver, sensitivity is needed even for 75dB (100dB peaks) at 15 feet.. I will let you guys chew on the variables needed. If you do not care then enjoy compressed sound from small drivers. The HT experts out there would cringe in either of your rooms but you are not building it for them anyways so I get the compromise and the subjectivity.
Planet10, Im not discouraging anything, People have full power over all their decisions. I didnt know if the OP new about the compromises with a FR choice. I still think he doesn't but in time education finds it way into everyone's mind if they care enough. It seems like HT just needs to be adequate and that is a fine decision too but the numbers should be on the table so he knows that when he experiences a real damn good HT system he will know what/why it does the little things better.
I think your posting supporting FR drivers for anything and everything is just misleading....they take your word as gospel but this...
is funny...."NO issues"?? Man, I guess you ignored the 15 feet and huge room part of the equation and maybe care little about real HT performance? You see no issues while I see huge compromise, we come from different HT worlds and HT experiences that is for sure.
I get the subjectivity thing here, I won't bother anyone with a little HT dynamics science.
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However, to say that for example an FE126E in a well designed enclosure, such as any number of those discussed in these fora, cannot achieve "adequate" (as in satisfying to the listener) wide band performance and dynamics for either simple 2 channel audio, or even as the font row in a modest domestic HT rig, as per the OP' s inquiry, is quite simply inaccurate. Perhaps Doug would like to discuss the matter with Ed Schilling?
First, Sorry for no tact
Now, I have to ask what is "adequate"? The Fostek has no Xmax, It can only handle 45Watts, that equates to almost little dynamics and maybe its okay 6 feet away but 15 feet (in a large room).
What is its max SPL? I just can not see the fostek doing anything good under 500Hz really but again its a popular FR so I won't be getting any where asking this in the FR forum.
I understand my POV is different here but I welcome any numbers that prove my position being grossly exaggerated.
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