well, no need for me. Before; with the smaller Satori as woofer and sub for below 40 Hz; the results were good. The new idea is to be able to increase SPL from 40 Hz up to about 300 Hz. Because the smaller Satori was in a BR box; it was limited in output; the reason I originally chose the SB 29 it would work in that box size closed; give a similar response but play louder and handle more power. The best solution for me is to not use the Satori woofer or SB29 woofer and replace them both with a single 10 inch nominal woofer that satisfies my need for not only low bass but also mid and upper bass.
Well, the series combination of the two woofers sounds pretty bad actually!
New idea; temporary anyway:
Use the new Crown amp with the SB29 11 inch woofers only; inductor for low pass to be determined. This would be for lower bass only; maybe 40 Hz to 120 Hz???
Block the ports on the Satori MW16P-4 6 inch woofer but use it with the Yamaha amp all by itself. No need for super large capacitors this way for a low frequency high pass??? This would be a closed box then; giving me better mid and upper bass keeping the lower bass off of this driver. This would enable a higher output than possible with a low tuned vented (same box, same driver...Q less than 0.707 perfectly OK).
Put the MR16P-4 6 inch mid. on the Dayton amp by itself. The Dayton is the least musical amp. but this is just an experiment after all. The MR16 for the lower mids only; X/O ???
Put the Pluvia and Fostex together on the NAD amp/CD combo unit. This is the least powerful amp but I have used it before to drive the Pluvias by themselves and it does get loud enough at 25 Watts/4 Ohms for my room (in the upper midrange and treble bands that is). New X/O and attenuators??? The NAD is much more musical sounding than the Dayton so the Pluvias will do better than if I put them with the Dayton.
I have also used the MR16 6 inch mids by themselves on the Dayton; good enough since the real magic comes mostly from the Pluvias.
I have all of these things already; getting another woofer will just have to wait. I might not even need to buy any more inductors or capacitors or resistors because I do have a huge and very wide selection already.
Probably too late in the day; I don't want to take a chance and make mistakes in wiring when I'm tired; better to start off new tomorrow...
New idea; temporary anyway:
Use the new Crown amp with the SB29 11 inch woofers only; inductor for low pass to be determined. This would be for lower bass only; maybe 40 Hz to 120 Hz???
Block the ports on the Satori MW16P-4 6 inch woofer but use it with the Yamaha amp all by itself. No need for super large capacitors this way for a low frequency high pass??? This would be a closed box then; giving me better mid and upper bass keeping the lower bass off of this driver. This would enable a higher output than possible with a low tuned vented (same box, same driver...Q less than 0.707 perfectly OK).
Put the MR16P-4 6 inch mid. on the Dayton amp by itself. The Dayton is the least musical amp. but this is just an experiment after all. The MR16 for the lower mids only; X/O ???
Put the Pluvia and Fostex together on the NAD amp/CD combo unit. This is the least powerful amp but I have used it before to drive the Pluvias by themselves and it does get loud enough at 25 Watts/4 Ohms for my room (in the upper midrange and treble bands that is). New X/O and attenuators??? The NAD is much more musical sounding than the Dayton so the Pluvias will do better than if I put them with the Dayton.
I have also used the MR16 6 inch mids by themselves on the Dayton; good enough since the real magic comes mostly from the Pluvias.
I have all of these things already; getting another woofer will just have to wait. I might not even need to buy any more inductors or capacitors or resistors because I do have a huge and very wide selection already.
Probably too late in the day; I don't want to take a chance and make mistakes in wiring when I'm tired; better to start off new tomorrow...
Another possibility. Don't even use the MR16 mid at all. Put the MW16 in the MR16 box which is already modified to be closed. This I can do rather quickly on just one channel. The MW and MR do sound very similar obviously; I bought the MR mids long before I bought the MW woofers which are really very wide band mid-bass. I wasn't necessarily going to use them both at the same time; it sort of ended up that way.
You would have a lot of fun with an active system.
7 channels (single sub), modify xover, volume levels on the fly. Yes sir. Lots of fun.
Well, the COVID has my Girlfriend and Daughter both out of work; I help them both with money every month. So, spending big bucks as we say has to wait I'm afraid.
******** What brand electronic crossover could I buy that gives me the most flexibility in crossover? I would want to try different slopes and Q's; not just frequency adjustments only. ********
The Satori MW might be good enough I'll decide I no longer need the WR. That would have me with a sub (already active); woofer of some kind; mid and tweeter as a minimum. Other wise for maximum craziness; sub, low woofer, high woofer, low mid, high mid, super-tweeter....
IF I can get the SB 29 and the MW 16 to balance out my critical needs of low, mid and upper bass passively; I won't need a better 10 inch woofer such as the NE265. The SB 29 is GREAT at the low end; 22 mm LINEAR X and a 3 inch VC and f3 closed (Aperiodic) in 33 liters IS SPECIAL for sure!
The Satori absolutely sounds MUCH more musical though; harmonics and overtones of the lowest notes are WAY more believable; then, anything else above that is ALSO way more believable. I could use it up to 400 to 600 Hz possibly; that would give the Pluvia the ability to play louder also. The Pluvia is crossed on the low end right now at 300 Hz but only 1st order. I want to stay with 1st order if I can get away with it; I prefer the sound better. I see the cone move quite a bit when there are lower bass frequencies getting through. I sometimes play it all by itself; I have only ONCE pushed it into distortion; it has the physical limiter like most Mark Audio full rangers do.
First coffee now
After breakfast; swap the MW in place of the MR (in the closed box; 15 l). First rough calc. shows that would give me a Q around 0.57; GREAT for better transients; f3 is a "don't care" here in this case but it would be in the high 70's or so.
******** What brand electronic crossover could I buy that gives me the most flexibility in crossover? I would want to try different slopes and Q's; not just frequency adjustments only. ********
The Satori MW might be good enough I'll decide I no longer need the WR. That would have me with a sub (already active); woofer of some kind; mid and tweeter as a minimum. Other wise for maximum craziness; sub, low woofer, high woofer, low mid, high mid, super-tweeter....
IF I can get the SB 29 and the MW 16 to balance out my critical needs of low, mid and upper bass passively; I won't need a better 10 inch woofer such as the NE265. The SB 29 is GREAT at the low end; 22 mm LINEAR X and a 3 inch VC and f3 closed (Aperiodic) in 33 liters IS SPECIAL for sure!
The Satori absolutely sounds MUCH more musical though; harmonics and overtones of the lowest notes are WAY more believable; then, anything else above that is ALSO way more believable. I could use it up to 400 to 600 Hz possibly; that would give the Pluvia the ability to play louder also. The Pluvia is crossed on the low end right now at 300 Hz but only 1st order. I want to stay with 1st order if I can get away with it; I prefer the sound better. I see the cone move quite a bit when there are lower bass frequencies getting through. I sometimes play it all by itself; I have only ONCE pushed it into distortion; it has the physical limiter like most Mark Audio full rangers do.
First coffee now
After breakfast; swap the MW in place of the MR (in the closed box; 15 l). First rough calc. shows that would give me a Q around 0.57; GREAT for better transients; f3 is a "don't care" here in this case but it would be in the high 70's or so.
You're a good person. It's tough times for a lot of people.
The Behringer 2496's are decent and come up often enough used. They are a good example of getting the right words to work with for searches even if you end up with a similar product.
Slopes / q's / levels. The ability to adjust easily is wonderful.
Do you have a desktop or laptop computer with multiple outputs?
Respect, oldspkrguy
Laptop ONLY has the internal RealTek soundcard with 1/8 inch (3.5 mm) mini jack for stereo headphones. Also, a jack of the same size for an external mic. The M Audio has 2 input and 2 out channels though and interfaces to the laptop via USB. I kind of put the mic and M Audio and REW aside for now; concentrating on the woofers.
LATEST! I have one MW16P-4 (white cone) in the 15 l box vented connected to the Crown amp. I have the other MW16P-4 (white) in another 15 l box but closed. This is connected to the Yamaha.
The Crown is WAY better sounding than the Yamaha!!!
I'm ignoring the low bass; just commenting and concentrating on the higher bass freq's. For now; both Satori MW16's are running full range; nothing except 10 AWG OFC stranded between the amplifier and the driver terminals.
CRAP! I thought the Yamaha sounded really good until just now!
This is getting HARDER and HARDER!!!
LATEST! I have one MW16P-4 (white cone) in the 15 l box vented connected to the Crown amp. I have the other MW16P-4 (white) in another 15 l box but closed. This is connected to the Yamaha.
The Crown is WAY better sounding than the Yamaha!!!
I'm ignoring the low bass; just commenting and concentrating on the higher bass freq's. For now; both Satori MW16's are running full range; nothing except 10 AWG OFC stranded between the amplifier and the driver terminals.
CRAP! I thought the Yamaha sounded really good until just now!
This is getting HARDER and HARDER!!!
next up:
SB29 and MW16P closed box combined on one channel of the Crown amp. 7.5 mH inductor on SB29; assuming 6 Ohms; this calculates as a low pass just under 130 Hz. 264 uF capacitor on MW16; assuming 4 Ohms this gives us a high pass at about 150 Hz. (-3 dB points, 1st order) Of course; we all know that the impedance is a variable; especially when considering what is influenced in the bass region by the box (not even talking about the higher freqs. where VC inductance, etc. become more important). Good results so far! Time to tweak!
I did leave the other MW16 in the vented box connected to the other channel of the Crown as a means of comparison.
I had some larger value metallized poly' capacitors in my handy stock boxes I had forgotten about.
I have a 100 uF Solen in parallel with two 82 uF Audyn Q4 caps = 264 uF total.
Like I said; time to tweak! So far, the MW16 compared to the SB29 seems to have more output; here we go; need to get the measurement system going! Hard to tell exactly about sensitivity matching SPL of these two woofers at these low passive crossover points.
Next step I need to put a low pass on this MW16; add in the Pluvia and add in the Fostex; one channel only at first. Unfortunately; none of my amplifiers has a L+R (or MONO) switch; this means stereo information in the other channel is missing; no worry for the beginnings of this new experiment.
It would also be very interesting to know what the minimum impedance the Crown "sees" here in this config. No signs of straining at moderate levels; it does have a very good protection circuit just in case...
SB29 and MW16P closed box combined on one channel of the Crown amp. 7.5 mH inductor on SB29; assuming 6 Ohms; this calculates as a low pass just under 130 Hz. 264 uF capacitor on MW16; assuming 4 Ohms this gives us a high pass at about 150 Hz. (-3 dB points, 1st order) Of course; we all know that the impedance is a variable; especially when considering what is influenced in the bass region by the box (not even talking about the higher freqs. where VC inductance, etc. become more important). Good results so far! Time to tweak!
I did leave the other MW16 in the vented box connected to the other channel of the Crown as a means of comparison.
I had some larger value metallized poly' capacitors in my handy stock boxes I had forgotten about.
I have a 100 uF Solen in parallel with two 82 uF Audyn Q4 caps = 264 uF total.
Like I said; time to tweak! So far, the MW16 compared to the SB29 seems to have more output; here we go; need to get the measurement system going! Hard to tell exactly about sensitivity matching SPL of these two woofers at these low passive crossover points.
Next step I need to put a low pass on this MW16; add in the Pluvia and add in the Fostex; one channel only at first. Unfortunately; none of my amplifiers has a L+R (or MONO) switch; this means stereo information in the other channel is missing; no worry for the beginnings of this new experiment.
It would also be very interesting to know what the minimum impedance the Crown "sees" here in this config. No signs of straining at moderate levels; it does have a very good protection circuit just in case...
Not too bad for a quick set up. 1st order X/O nominal between SB29 and MW16 about 140 Hz; 1st order nominal between MW16 and Pluvia about 530 Hz; I have the Pluvia upper low pass at 1st order right now just as a quick test at about 3500 Hz; normally, I do a 2nd order here but at a higher frequency. The Fostex remains with it's very custom 2nd order just above 15 KHz. The Pluvia extends WELL beyond 5 KHz on it's own normally; I think really WAY past that but once I get above about 6 KHz, my hearing starts to drop off. The OEM Pluvia FR I think is needing to be updated; again, 3rd party would be really nice right about now!
PE has a 14 AWG Erse 0.9 mH inductor on sale. I have tried 0.82 mH and 1.1 mH for the Satori MW16 low pass. Guess what; 0.9 mH is probably just about right and on sale; I'm going for it.
The 0.82 sounds just a little too bright; the 1.1 sounds just a little too dull...EARS ONLY; works for me for now...
The 0.82 sounds just a little too bright; the 1.1 sounds just a little too dull...EARS ONLY; works for me for now...
Just guessing here; the Pluvia is taking the Yamaha at 3/4 volume NO SWEAT! The amp is rated absolute maximum for 160 Watts at 4 Ohms but that is at the higher distortion level; somewhere between 100 and 150 Watts would be at the lower distortion figures for 4 Ohms. I'm sure the Pluvia is seeing at LEAST 50 Watt peaks. It IS band pass limited here of course; still, impressive for a 4 inch FR rated at just "15 Watts"!
No surprise here at all. The Satori MW16 does better on the low end; the MR does better on the high end. Maybe the answer is the new TexTreme??? It should be able to BOTH!!! Regardless, 3-way, 3 1/2 way, 4-way, 4 1/2 way...The Satori MR 16 and the Pluvia 7PHD covering almost the exact same frequency range simultaneously is still incredibly hard to beat...
I just did a quick swap back; I put the MR in place of the MW. SHORT test; the upper bass and lower mids ARE better but the lower bass just can't compete with the MW; even if I raise the high pass freq.
I put the MW back in; raised the low pass from about 150 Hz to about 220 Hz. I haven't received the new low pass coil yet but; this cleaned up the mid and upper bass. I was obviously getting "some" IM muddying up the sound. This is EXACTLY why I have so many parts and experiment! One might think simply going from 150 to 220 Hz would not make any difference. Well, it DOES! These are all 1st order so far; I'd like to keep it that way IF POSSIBLE. I just ordered a 5.6 mH coil for the SB 29; this will make the low pass about 170 Hz instead of about 130 Hz (again, 1st order). This is the toroid core Jantzen "C-core" with 14 AWG wire. DCR is only 0.078 Ohms if you can believe that! Pricey but I'm going to make everything work together here for the foreseeable future; the newer woofers (whatever they MIGHT be) will just have to wait for now.
One of the things I do with a 1st order X/O is to space the low pass and high pass slightly apart in frequency. Depending on what or where you read; if you have the low pass and high pass of a 1st order at the exact same frequency; there will be a "hump" (non-flat) because of the (combined) overlap.
I put the MW back in; raised the low pass from about 150 Hz to about 220 Hz. I haven't received the new low pass coil yet but; this cleaned up the mid and upper bass. I was obviously getting "some" IM muddying up the sound. This is EXACTLY why I have so many parts and experiment! One might think simply going from 150 to 220 Hz would not make any difference. Well, it DOES! These are all 1st order so far; I'd like to keep it that way IF POSSIBLE. I just ordered a 5.6 mH coil for the SB 29; this will make the low pass about 170 Hz instead of about 130 Hz (again, 1st order). This is the toroid core Jantzen "C-core" with 14 AWG wire. DCR is only 0.078 Ohms if you can believe that! Pricey but I'm going to make everything work together here for the foreseeable future; the newer woofers (whatever they MIGHT be) will just have to wait for now.
One of the things I do with a 1st order X/O is to space the low pass and high pass slightly apart in frequency. Depending on what or where you read; if you have the low pass and high pass of a 1st order at the exact same frequency; there will be a "hump" (non-flat) because of the (combined) overlap.
Bloody Hell, such a coil is not costing as much as SB11-WOP woofer ? 
... not so far from a little crown amp ?
How do you plan the mid driver lobying please in the first order arrengement please ? Simply by playing with distance between the mid cabinet and the separate woofer one ? Or simply the height or tilting up/down (15°) the ftont bafle or whole cabinet vis a vis to the sweet spot listening position ?
... not so far from a little crown amp ?How do you plan the mid driver lobying please in the first order arrengement please ? Simply by playing with distance between the mid cabinet and the separate woofer one ? Or simply the height or tilting up/down (15°) the ftont bafle or whole cabinet vis a vis to the sweet spot listening position ?
I have every driver in a separate enclosure and can very easily adjust for any orientation. I had an acoustics and speaker expert PHD professor tell me a simple trick to achieve time alignment. If you play a recording or use some signal that is a tick; you can adjust the distances until the sound from every driver appears to arrive at your ears at the exact same time. Of course; I now have the new measuring system; once I learn how to use it that is.
The inductor costs almost $60 US each; very expensive but worth it for low frequency and high power because it won't distort or saturate like a cheaper coil would.
The inductor costs almost $60 US each; very expensive but worth it for low frequency and high power because it won't distort or saturate like a cheaper coil would.